Swiss Mountain Railways

[Chrislock]

Greetings.

A few of these specialist forums seem to have sprung up recently, semmingly with no or few posts in them.

So I thought I would pitch in and say that my main interest in Switzerland would be the little narrow gauge railways of the Jungfraubahnen, upon which I spent a happy summer recently.

I am thinking that such a line would have to be pretty much scratchbuilt?

I know that rack and pinion track used to be available.

I would love to work on a little narrow gauge version of Schynigge Platte or Kleinne Scheidegg.

 

Regards,

Chris

[DIW]

Hi Chris,

 

We certainly have a shared interest there!

 

With regards to modelling the railways of the region (with particular emphasis on the rack aspects) there are rather more options available than one would expect....

 

The obvious one is to model one of the 'flat' parts to avoid rack, e.g. BLM (Murrenbahn) between Grutschalp and Murren, BOB between Interlaken Ost and Zweilutschinen, or very early Jungfraubahn between Eismeer and Jungfraujoch (yes really! that bit is only 6.6% gradient and was adhesion-worked originally).

 

To model the rack lines, there are still several options. As you mentioned, rack was available from Fleischmann in N gauge and HO gauge. In N it is integrated into track sections, in HO it is fixed down onto the track Two versions - one for profi-track, the other for 'normal' track. Of course with the N product the modeller is slightly restricted to the scale. With the HO rack, there is more flexibility (see later below). Note though that only Straub type rack is available in the Fleischmann stable.

 

For Riggenbach rack and Locher rack I haven't seen any products widely available yet, though there is bound to be a small manufacturer somewhere in Switzerland who produces/produced them.

 

For 7mm scale, 0m track, rack, locos and rolling stock were produced by Fama. They occasionally turn up on Ebay.

 

Back to HOm, keep an eye on the recent developments by Bemo. They're not what I could afford when I started modelling mountail railways, but on the other hand they didn't make Berner Oberland kit at the start. Track in HOm is fairly widely available. I can't remember offhand who makes the rack version though. I seem to recall though that I've seen it in Straub and Abt versions.

 

For HOe, I'm not aware of who (apart from HRF) makes rack-capable mechanisms - but 9mm Abt track base is/was available. The example I have is marked Ferro-Suter, Joe Works, made in Japan. Perhaps Ferro-Suisse would be th place to start looking.

 

Back to HRF - they make various Berner Oberland Bahn locos and coaches in HOm, and also offer a Wengernalp Bahn set in HOe. Mind you they cost over £1000 before the pound fell against th Swiss Franc. They are usually in the window of Buhler in Interlaken.

 

More affordable option is to use the Fleischmann products for the rack and go from there. You'll need to decide what gauge you want to model, because that will determine the scale. For metre gauge, 16.5mm model gauge gives approximately 5mm/ft (1:61, close enough to 1:64 - S scale - i.e. Sm) while for 800mm gauge 16.5mm gives 6mm/ft (1:51, close enough to 1:50 for various vehicle products to be of suitable dimensions for the scenery).

 

My own current railway is in Sm and is on the web here . You will recognise from where the models are derived. The catenary is based on that of the SPB and BLM in the early 1980's (BLM was still like it when I last looked!)

 

The Fleischmann mechanisms can be found quite cheaply at toy fairs. It is possible to adapt Hornby Ringfield motor bogies to take a Fleischmann rack gear. Of course you can always scratch-build a chassis!

 

The most important thing is to make the gradient transitions gentle. The track sleeper spacing becomes important - good old streamline is far too narrow! I found some of the old Wrenn fibre based stuff. The spacing is rather too wide for OO, so just about right for me.

 

I'm exhibiting it at Minstead (New Forest) in June (see RMweb calendar), and (as far as I know) at Christchurch (Hants) in October (though I realise that you are rather far from those locations).

 

Let me know if you want any more info on modelling the region.

 

There is around somewhere in Germany a model of the SPB almost in its entirety! I'll get round to finding the link to its site and add it to the 'links' thread, but if you find it first please add it yourself!

 

All the Best,

 

Dave

[GoingUnderground]

Bemo make HOm Abt system rack track, and BVZ, FO and MGB rack locos to go with it. Their newly released BVZ HGe 4/4 'Krokodil', which has rack drive, is a lovely model.

 

On the subject of Swiss Kroks, I think I'm correct in saying that with the VZ Krok being released by BEMO at some time or another they have all been avaialble as RTR models. If you haven't come across it before, you might find this website of interest. .

[Horsetan]

It goes without saying, of course, that all of this will be exquisitely expensive......

[Chrislock]

Wow, guys!

Thanks for such a blinding set of information! That will keep me busy for some time!

I had toyed with using the Fleishmann 9mm R&P, as any discrepancies are less obvious haha. Neither had I ruled out making my own pcb based track.

Then the idea occurred of using Z gauge, with N gauge scratchbuilt loos - now that really would give you a railway in its landscape!

Anyway, its not something I will be embarking on anytime soon, as I am just embarking on a 2mm finescale pregrouping layout - could develop some useful transferrable skills though!

All this is very interesting anyway.

Regards,

Chris

[PaulRhB]

Don't forget Ferrotrain for their rack system in HOn3, expensive but not extortionate.

http://www.winco.uk....T-HOn3loco.html

 

http://www.winco.uk....Tmain.html#HOn3

 

Note the set for around £250

http://www.winco.uk.com/NewArr.html#HOn3

 

I have no connection with Winco apart from years of excellent service.

[Keith Canada]

Of course if you REALLY want a rack railway model, there's always this: http://www.alpnacher.ch/Eisenbahn/pilatusbahn_H0e.html

 

One good thing about rack railways if you suffer from restricted modelling space - "If you can't build outwards, build upwards"!!

[Keith Canada]

There were a couple of articles in Continental Modeller (July & Sept 1996) on a rack layout based on the Schafbergbahn using the same loco and coaches as FerroTrain but marketed at that time by Gerard.

[Chrislock]

Greetings.

I recently bought a DVD by Jon Marsh filmed on the Bernese Oberland, and it both inspired and set me thinking how I would go about creating a model of the SPB ( or WAB), which were the elements which most intrigued me on my Swiss holiday a few years ago.

Given space restrictions ( I normally model in 2mm), my first instinct was to think that Z gauge track 6.5mm would be close for a 1:160 scale model ( 6mm) BUT I would have to use z mechanisms. Anyone make motor bogies in Z?

The more obvious way forward would be to try to source the fleischmann 9mm rack-track and scratchbuild in 3mm scale using chassis from high quality continental manufacturers.

I would scratchbuild locos from brass and adapt coaches/ wagons from existing models where available, but would need to get hold of castings or etches for certain parts.

I would also consider building my own track and points using code 30 rail from the 2mm Association, using pcb sleepers. This would mean having to find an etch for the rack, which could be cosmetic if the gearing were good enough and traction tyres were fitted.

Anyone know of any 3mm suppliers of catenaries, coaches and wagons suitable for the SPB?

The plan was to build something small which could be easily be put away when not in use.

[ Want to avoid the " Not another layout" comments!]

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Chris

[Keith Canada]

Here's another Swiss rack railway model: http://www.suter-meggen.ch/Motreno/fo/index_schoe.htm - however, note that the locos are marked " Delivery date still unknown."

 

Personally, I'd like to see someone produce models of the AppenzellerBahnen rack systems - either for the original lines or for the recently-acquired Rorschach-Heiden and Rheineck-Walzenhausen lines.

[Chrislock]

Now that loco is very close to the SPB locos. Lovely models. What scale are those- HO?

At £764 for a loco though thet are beyond my pocket.

 

I am really quite enthusiastic about the idea of modelling in 2mm scale on z gauge track, and scratchbuilding where possible.

I cab get hold of small enough wheels and gear cogs easily and Lawton do a tiny 6v motor which would slip in, but where I wonder can one get hold of drawings for the SPB locos....

[Keith Canada]

Now that loco is very close to the SPB locos. Lovely models. What scale are those- HO?

At £764 for a loco though thet are beyond my pocket.

 

Yes, they're HO scale - and I agree, too many $$$'s for me!!

 

Of, course, the Swiss models are priced according to what the market will bear. As a friend once said: "Whatever you do, don't convert Swiss Francs to Canadian Dollars and make a comparison - it will do your blood-pressure no good at all!" I recall seeing Athearn US-outline locos in a store in St Gallen, Switzerland, priced at over CHF100 each when the same model was on sale in Canada at that time for about $45 - with a 1:1 currency exchange rate....

[DIW]

Now that loco is very close to the SPB locos. Lovely models. What scale are those- HO?

At £764 for a loco though thet are beyond my pocket.

However, for the SPB the He2/2s are 800mm gauge, so you would need HOe versions. Alternatively, use the Fleischmann HO rack system and model in 6mm/ft scale (close enough to 1:50).

 

I am really quite enthusiastic about the idea of modelling in 2mm scale on z gauge track, and scratchbuilding where possible.

I cab get hold of small enough wheels and gear cogs easily and Lawton do a tiny 6v motor which would slip in, but where I wonder can one get hold of drawings for the SPB locos....

One source I know of (pricey cost of course) is 'Schynige Platte Bahn - Die Bergstrecke der Berner Oberland-Bahnen' by Hansruedi Brawand, published by Prellbock ISBN 3-907579-26-7 (2003). It has a drawing of almost everything on the SPB, but the one of a He2/2 is reproduced rather small, and looks to be a 1910 version with a trapezoid pantograph instead of a diamond pantograph.

 

Another book which has some good drawings of the carriages is 'Wengernalpbahn - Linie Lauterbrunnen-Kleine Scheidegg-Grindelwald der Jungfraubahnen' by Florian Inaebnit, also published by Prellbock ISBN 3-907579-25-9 (2006). (You may recognise the name Florian Inaebnit as one of the editors of 'Prellbock' magazine?) The WAB used to swap the He2/2s with the SPB. SPB had most of them in the summer, the WAB had all of them in the winter (except those undergoing full overhaul of course). A quick flick through didn't locate any drawing of a He2/2 though.

 

Finally a book which has pictures and other information not quite covered by the other two is 'Die Berner-Oberland-Bahnen' by Hans Haesler, published by Minirex ISBN 3-907 014-04-9 (1990).

 

All the books are in German. I didn't find any problem in translating the pictures and drawings

Posted 14 July 2011 - 14:29

There were a couple of articles in Continental Modeller (July & Sept 1996) on a rack layout based on the Schafbergbahn using the same loco and coaches as FerroTrain but marketed at that time by Gerard.

Perhaps I could direct you towards 'Continental Modeller' January/February 1982?

 

Which version of SPB catenary would you be looking to build - the present steel mast ones or the older wooden mast versions? (Plastruct H beams or wooden dowel).

 

Finally I'll direct you to this link for a He2/2 on metre gauge at 5mm/ft (1:61, but close enough to S scale 1:64 to be dubbed Sm).

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[Chrislock]

Yep. You can't see many of those finding their way onto ebay, can you?!

They make O gauge look a positive steal.

A ridiculous price - unless they are cast in gold with diamond headlights of course...

[Horsetan]

 

.....the Swiss models are priced according to what the market will bear.....

 

Same goes for German, French, etc. European finescale kits are - numerically speaking - priced way above the British near-equivalent. Weinert HO loco kits sell at several hundred pounds each, for example.

 

 

Yep. You can't see many of those finding their way onto ebay, can you?!

They make O gauge look a positive steal.

A ridiculous price - unless they are cast in gold with diamond headlights of course...

 

Ridiculous only to British eyes. Unfortunately the prices are pretty realistic in a European market context.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Horsetan

[habicht]

Like others on this forum, I 'discovered' the SPB and Wengernalpbahn by accident, when we visited Grindelwald. Luckily my wife also fell in love with the area and we have returned 8 times so far, winter an summer, staying variously in Grindelwald, Wengen and Murren.

 

Although primarily an aeromodeller, I also have a modest 45mm garden railway which sadly is dead flat ! but I now have an LGB rack loco that is close to SPB/WAB stock and have plans for a very large rockery.

 

Buhlers in Interlaken have now sold out of the green/cream HRF raiulcars and although these occassionally turn up second hand, the price is now over £1500. The Malutram BOB railcars are arounf 750sfr (exchange rate is 1.22, half what it was ten years ago) and German forums seem to suggest that unlike HRF, the quality is dubious and highly variable. I don't think that the rack turnouts mentioned are now available but these were over £250 each !

 

Frustratingly, WINCO tell me that HAG once exhibited a prototype WAB railcar many years ago at the Nurnburg toyfair but no one showed any interest. MITV tell me that the Jungfraubahnen and Swiss railways generally, have no idea about merchandising - with 3 million paasengers annually, there should be a thriving market which would make prices a lot more affordable for us.

 

Prellbock und Druck do a nice series of books, one on the SPB, WAB, Jungrgfrabahn and for several years have said that a volume on the BOB is in preparation.

Sometimes these are on sale in the stations but also try the bookshop opposite Buhlers in Interlaken. Amazon or Abebooks should get you a copy. Unfortunately there are few drawings of railcars or stock in these books. However someone recently produced 2 separate DVDs on the WAB and the Jungfrabahn with scale drawings of EVERY item of stock EVER and EVERY livery variation EVER. Its quite unbelievable - each has 400+ drawings and lots of colour photos as well. I will post details if you haven't seen these.

 

So information is not a problem - the price of commercial models is prohibitive for the average chap - so what is the alternative ?

 

I must make it clear that I have not been an active modeller in the smaller scales and building rack mechanisms frankly scares me. My view on scratchbuilding track is that life is too short but in any case, the difficulty of making rack accurately enough sounds a real problem.

 

As has been mentioned, HRF track is available for WAB/SPB dead scale but its expensive and HRF is a one man band, if he dies, supply will certainly stop.

Flieschman rack, despite its appearance is at least available in N and Ho, its cheap and it works. Similarly mechanisms are available.

 

I have discussed the prospect of using Z gauge track with several suppliers (at a badly attended continental show and they had time on their hands). Their view was that its difficult to lay andaccurately enough for smooth running, to cross baseboard joints. They felt locos had poor adhesion due to lck of weight and wouldn't tackle a decent incline. Allegedly someone had tried machine cut rack but couldn't get it to work. At this size its watchmaking skills you need.

 

N scale certainly appeals to me because it gives you the scope to model the vertical landscape. Also there are the 101 other items available in N gauge that makes life so much easier. Consequently I have concluded that either I use N gauge track which is then grossly out of scale - and live with it - or model in Ho using N gauge track which at 1:87 works out at 783mm against the correct gauge of 800mm, frankly thats close enough for me.

 

I think the Fleischman rack loco can be cut about a bit but if these was enough interest, maybe we could get together and have a batch of railcar rack bogies made up. This is outside my area of knowledge, so I don't know who to ask or what they might cost. Similarly getting some etches made should not eb a problem now all of the drawings are available (you just have to get those DVDs)

 

I have been sitting on the fence for years, rather deterred at even making a start.

I look forward to eveyones thoughtys, information and advice.

Paul

[PaulRhB]

As suggested by DM a simple fold up body produced by Worsley would be significantly cheaper and possible to build with solder or glue as they are so simple. All you'd need is some decent drawings and photos and patience. The same approach would work in HO with the fleischmann rack loco hidden underneath or in G using one of the chassis available from shops like Garden Railway specialists though you would need to add an extra axle for the rack gear, available as a spare form LGB, and a drive to it. A delrin sprocket set available for many modelling projects would probably be best as I think their gear is raised and the same diameter as the wheels they use so it doesn't need gearing up or down.

[habicht]

Thank you Dutch-Master and PaulRhb.

As mentioned I am not an experienced small scale modeller and have no engineering skills.

 

1:64 S scale technically makes good sense but it is not for me - its physically too large for the space I have available.

 

I want to model the beautiful vertical scenery of the WAB area and this is why I would prefer to use N scale. I could just about live with using Flieschman standard gauge rack track but I am not sure that their rack loco mechanism would fit inside the railcars with enough clearance for the bodies to move around curves - any thoughts ?

 

For my skills, Ho is probably the mosty realistic prospect - and as I have just retired, if I don't build something soon, its never going to happen !

I can use the N gauge rack which will look acceptable and I am sure that a number of Bemo wagons can be the basis of simple conversions to WAB stock.

Yes I am aware of the Worsley Works and my idea was to get them to etch one of the more modern box shaped railcars as a first attempt, using the Fleischman rack loco as motive power. Alternatively, could any of the Bemo rack power bogies be narrowed to N gauge ? and would they engage with Flieschman rack ?

Otherwise, does anyone know of anyone that would custom build some rack power bogies ?

 

My real love is the older green/cream railcars but their complex roof shape and the recessed windows, means that these would be difficult to make in etched brass. Resin seems a better prospect and I wondered if a master pattern could be made from cut down Bemo coach sides, so that I could make several copies.

Because you can't have just one railcar can you !

 

As far as G scale goes, I first need to build a mountain in the garden. As the garden is only 10 metres x 10 metres and already quite mature, its likely to be a rockery that wraps around the back of a small patio and climbs up to shoulder height (when seated). As the rack section can only be of limited length, I will settle for the LGB rack loco modified to SPB form and have Worsley works etch some SPB coaches.

 

Paul

[PaulRhB]

Bemo offer several locos in HOe so they might well do the rack locos too, ask Winco ( coincidentally the rack layout in CM mentioned a few posts above was by Peter Brett of Winco )

The N gauge fleischmann rack loco would be a good starting point and I'm sure you could slightly stretch the boxcab locos without loosing the character.

[habicht]

There seems to be very little information in magazines or even on the web, about modelling rack railways - that the information you are giving me is pure gold.

Thank you everyone for your help.

 

The Riggenbach rack is rapidly being replaced on the WAB by the Strub system, so that the visual appearance of the Fleischman track is reasonably correct for the WAB today.

 

I had no idea that Bemo offered a replacement cog to match HRF Riggenbach rack - obviously for 12mm/Hom gauge.

Do you know if this cog is compatible with HRF's 9.0mm rack track ?

If so, this offers the possibility of using the power bogies from Bemo SBB/ZB, regauged to 9.0MM but you are then dependant on HRF track, which may not be available in future.

 

Does anyone have actual experience of running Bemo rack locos on really steep inclines of 1:10 to 1:5 ????????

 

Although the advice is to keep the transition from horizontal to incline a smooth curve, there doesn't seem to be any advice of what radius that vertical curve should be.

It is said that the process of bending rail can then splay the gauge and cause problems.

There doesn't seem to be any information on what combinations of vertical and horizontal curves are possible, nor how you bend rail to achieve this - ideas ??????

 

Paul

[Horsetan]

Yes, I've sold a few BEMO Brunig Line HGe 4/4 II's which had the built-in cog on their bogies. Very clever stuff, I have to say.

[habicht]

Using auto translate (not very effective with technical things) I found a few interesting comments on some German websites.

 

On Bemo locos, the rack cog is on the front axle of the leading power bogie and the rear axle of the trainling bogie.

If the cog is moved to the rear axle of the leading bogie and leading axle of the trailing bogie, this greatly reduces the problems of the cog slipping off the rack.

In other words, bringing the cogs as close together as possible, improves running.

 

Logically, it sounds that a shorter wheelbase is less likely to come off the rack on a vertical radius than a long wheelbase.

 

Increasing loco weight also helps.

There is talk of using magnets to help hold the loco onto the rack but I do not understand where these are placed - any ideas ?

 

Can anyone see a problem with using a single power bogie as a chassis for an He 2/2 ? If its OK, then one Bemo loco makes two He 2/2 !

 

Is it certain that the HRF compatible cog is still available from Bemo ? Any idea of the part number ?

 

If a Bemo loco can be converted to Hoe, does it always say Hom / Hoe on the box ?

If not, is there a list of convertable locos ?

Do the loco instructions include information about changing from Hom to Hoe ?

 

As you can see, the information in these posts has made me feel that my best opportunity to model the WAB is by using HRF 9mm track (even though I have concerns about future availability) and using the power bogies from Bemo locos, regauged to Hoe.

 

As I have an N gauge Flieschmann Edelweiss rack loco, I will experiement with a small N gauge scenic section, to see what I can learn but I think that N is a bit small for my scratchbuilding. I am much more confortable about the idea of scratchbuilding in Hoe, knowing that Bemo locos at least give me an affordable supply of rack power bogies.

 

Any further advice / information appreciated.

Paul

[habicht]

Thank you for such helpful and detailed information - really helpful.

 

Are you saying that the new Bemo locos now only have one motor in the front bogie ?

 

How can I dentify the older 3 pole locos in Ebay adverts ?

 

Do the old and new versions have different catalogue numbers ?

 

What date was the new 5 pole motor introduced ?

 

I was a bit shocked when I looked at the cost of HRF 9mm track................ 43 euros for 1 metre - this is twice as expensive as 45mm LGB track !

 

I promised to post the information about WAB drawings.

Two DVD books have been produced by Wolfgang Finke and published by www.buchauf-dvd.de

 

Die Fahrzeuge der Jungfraubahnen 1 and 2

 

1 covers the BOB, JB, BLM 2 covers WAB, SPB

 

Each disc has over 1300 drawings to 1/87 scale of every item of stock ever and every colour scheme, colour drawings and hundreds of colour photos.

You MUST buy these if you do not already have them. Try Ebay first, as prices vary between 22 and 40 euros.

 

For anyone modelling the WAB, there is all the information you will ever need.

Paul

[habicht]

Again, realy helpful advice.

I know what you mean about Ebay, although you can just sometimes be lucky.

Fortunately each year there are two major swapmeets within travelling distance of me, so I shall try my luck.

I have never physically seen the under side of a Bemo rack loco, so is it quite obvious when you look at them, whether there are two motors or a central drive ?

Please forgive my ignorance - if my wife hadn't taken me to Switzerland I wouldn't be having these problems !

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Horsetan]

.....Finding the twin-motor versions on Ebay for little money is useless.

 

Again, I've sold over a few of the twin-motor engines over the past year. They went off to places like Italy and Japan, as well as here.

 

Several here can attest that even 2nd hand Bemo can go for silly prices, sometimes even more then new (and readily available from shops... )...

 

I wouldn't know about that. None of the stock I've sold has ever gone for more than new. I have tried to pitch starting prices so that everyone gets a fair crack of the whip.

 

What I do know is that the new retail prices of BEMO stock are really not to be dwelt on if you've spent a lifetime paying relatively low UK prices for UK outline stock. Mainland European / Scandiavian modelling is a whole different world, in financial terms, and you need to be sure that you can actually afford it.

 

Trying to get hold of finescale items, such as those made for P87 / HO-pur can be another challenge, as they are not particularly well-publicised (for example, someone try and get me a Teichmann HO-pur wheel form tool, please, or Teichmann's driving wheel blanks for German engines!) over here, whilst those sites that do exist are a little cagey about the full range that they offer (e.g. Willy Kosak, owner of the HO-pur trademark, only has a few items on his site) or, if you don't speak German or French then there may be difficulties in ordering what you're after.

 

....I have never physically seen the under side of a Bemo rack loco, so is it quite obvious when you look at them, whether there are two motors or a central drive ?....

 

Fortunately I took some photos for sale purposes. I'll post up a photo or two later.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Horsetan