Movement of Gun powder vans?

[darren01]

Hi all

I have been sorting out my rolling stock and I have a gun powder van , what I would like to know is where would it be put in the train, at the front or rear and what sort of barrier wagons would protect it?

Where their any special rule running with these vans?

All the best

Darren

[Gwiwer]

There would be specific rules and no doubt someone here will be able to quote them. IIRC there have to be (at least) three barrier wagons both sides of a gunpowder van which would typically be empty 4-wheel vans of what ever kind the yard master had on hand. I believe there was also a limit applied to how many loaded gunpowder wagons could be conveyed in a train. Loose shunting would also not be permitted and special attention applied to the working of the train.

[Guest dilbert]

From a GW perspective ...

 

Peacetime movements :

• GPVs (telegraph code CONE) had to be positioned as far as as possible from the loco, the brake van and any other vehicles marked 'inflammable'
  
• no more than five GPVs coupled together marshalled at the rear
  
• no working thru the Severn Tunnel
  
• each GPV limited to 10,000 lbs of explosives (sheeted OPENs limited to 2,240 lbs)
  
• loading and unloading to take place outside goods sheds
  

Additionally during WWI & WWII :

• each GPV limited to 16,000 lbs of explosives (sheeted OPENs limited to 4,000 lbs)
  
• upto 60 GPVs could make up a gvt explosives train
  

...dilbert

[The Stationmaster]

Gunpowder vans were not permitted to be loaded or unloaded in goods sheds or warehouses etc.

[Fat Controller]

The 'Barrier Wagons' did not have to be empty wagons specifically for this traffic, I believe. The train would be marshalled with dedicated barrier vehicles if there was no other traffic, but upon arriving at an intermediate point where other traffic was added, it would be remarshalled (whenever possible) with wagons containing suitably inert traffic on either side of it. The barriers would be retained at this point for the next load. For example, the explosives traffic from near Parbold would leave the private siding with some BR Ferryvans as barriers. These would be left at Warrington, where the wagons were formed into a trunk service to (ultimately) Tyne Yard. At Tyne Yard, the wagons conveying explosives would be given a brace of empty coal hoppers on either side to form the trip working to Black Callerton. There has been an article in Rail Express, by David Ratcliffe IIRC, dealing with explosives traffic.

[Pennine MC]

IIRC there have to be (at least) three barrier wagons both sides of a gunpowder van

 

I would imagine two SWB wagons* would be sufficient, as with any other hazardous traffic.

 

* Or one LWB if it was the equivalent in SLUs, ISTR this coming up in one of the many other barrier threads.

[darren01]

HI all

Thanks for the info on GPV

All the best

Darren

[rcmacchipilot]

Interesting,

 

This might be something I have to incorportate into my layout. + added shunting interest

 

[JeremyC]

From the 1950 BR Rule Book; Rule 240 (10)

Not more than five vehicles containing explosives must be conveyed by any one train at any one time. Vehicles containing explosives or highly inflammable liquids or liquefied gases must be marshalled as near the middle of the train as possible and in any case there must be two vehicles empty or containing non-explosive traffic marshalled between the engine and first vehicle containing explosives or highly inflammable liquids or liquefied gases, except that for short distances between depots or private sidings and marshalling yards these two vehicles need not be provided.

 

Notes to Rule 240 states: Loose shunting of vehicles containing explosives is strictly prohibited.

 

Jeremy

[The Stationmaster]

From the 1950 BR Rule Book; Rule 240 (10)

Not more than five vehicles containing explosives must be conveyed by any one train at any one time. Vehicles containing explosives or highly inflammable liquids or liquefied gases must be marshalled as near the middle of the train as possible and in any case there must be two vehicles empty or containing non-explosive traffic marshalled between the engine and first vehicle containing explosives or highly inflammable liquids or liquefied gases, except that for short distances between depots or private sidings and marshalling yards these two vehicles need not be provided.

 

Notes to Rule 240 states: Loose shunting of vehicles containing explosives is strictly prohibited.

 

Jeremy

 

I wonder when that was issued? I thought I'd got all the supplements but that is definitely not in any I have got

[JeremyC]

 

I wonder when that was issued? I thought I'd got all the supplements but that is definitely not in any I have got

It isn't from a supplement, but from the original text in the black hard-backed Rulebook 1950 [page 271 if your copy's the same one I have]. Mine seems to have amendments up to 18/10/58, and from notes on the front page was last issued to someone in Dec 1959.

 

Jeremy

[Poor Old Bruce]

I have the "Rule Book 1950 (Reprint including amendments authorised up to 1st October 1961)" which only goes up to Rule 239. There is no mention of Rule 240 in the Supplement No.1 to operate from 2nd May 1964; No.3 (28 Sept 1968); No.4 or No.5 (both 9 May 1970). No idea why No.2 seems to have passed me by. Must look out my red RB some time.

 

Rule 110 of the 1950/1961 RB says that loose shunting of vehicles containing passengers or explosives is strictly prohibited

[JeremyC]

I have the "Rule Book 1950 (Reprint including amendments authorised up to 1st October 1961)" which only goes up to Rule 239. There is no mention of Rule 240 in the Supplement No.1 to operate from 2nd May 1964; No.3 (28 Sept 1968); No.4 or No.5 (both 9 May 1970). No idea why No.2 seems to have passed me by. Must look out my red RB some time.

 

Rule 110 of the 1950/1961 RB says that loose shunting of vehicles containing passengers or explosives is strictly prohibited

 

Interesting. In the copy I have [an original,not a reprint] rule 240 is the last rule in the book.

 

Jeremy

[The Stationmaster]

I think I have solved the Rule 240 question. The 1950 Rule Book was re-issued at the end of 1961 and applicable from 1st January 1962 and as I started a few years after that I, of course, got the 1962 reissue (which was in fact the only reissue of the 1950 book). Having checked the original issue 1950 Rule Book Rule 240 is indeed there in all its glory - but what I haven't got are any Rule Book amendments between 1950 and 1961 although I have established that it was still in the Rule Book in 1960 and I have the reference for its withdrawal from the book but not the date.

 

The contents of Rule 240, plus lots of other stuff, I presume went into the various green freight handling etc books which were a totally separate thing, alas I can't lay hands on any of mine at present.

[McRuss]

In my edition of the rulebook I could found Rule 240, It's the first edition and was issued to the first owner in December 1949.

I've got a question regarding the Gunpowder Vans, how long are they in use? And could explosives also be send in normal Goods wagons?

 

yours

 

Markus

[PGN]

There is a photo of a special train taking a section of a West Riding yeomanry artillery battery to the firing range at Knott End in about 1912. Fascinating train formation; but as I recall there were not three barrier wagons either side of the GPV.

 

IIRC the train formation was:

 

3 horseboxes

Brake tri-composite (1st for officers, 2nd for NCOs, 3rd for ORs)

flat wagon with 2 guns

flat wagon with 2 limbers

barrier wagon

GPV

barrier wagon

brake van

 

It was worked over the Garstang & Knott End by a LNWR locomotive (again, IIRC it was a "Cauliflower"), but the carriage was not in LNWR livery and was presumably supplied by the system of origin.

 

I have always thought that this would be a delightful formation to make up in model form ...

[Barry O]

Gunpowder vans were not permitted to be loaded or unloaded in goods sheds or warehouses etc.

 

But at Windermere Station the Elterwater gunpowder vans could be unloaded right next door to the locomotive ash road(!)

 

- and they seem to have got away with it!

 

Gunpowder vans were not permitted to be loaded or unloaded in goods sheds or warehouses etc.

 

But at Windermere Station the Elterwater gunpowder vans could be unloaded right next door to the locomotive ash road(!)

 

- and they seem to have got away with it!

[t-b-g]

I the late 1970s I used to trainspot at Stainforth and Hatfield, near Doncaster. One day a train came in from the Hull direction, with a class 31 on the front. The leading vehicle was"fly shunted", in that the driver let the couplings go slack, a shunter uncoupled the leading wagon, and pulled away from the train, let the coupling go slack again and when the wagon had been uncoupled on the move, the loco pulled away. The shunter ran up to the lever and pulled the point and the wagon rolled into a short dead end facing siding with the shunter furiously jumping up and down on the handbrake. It stopped right in front of me and yes...... it was a gunpowder van! I like to think that it was either empty or being used for something else but I have since been told that explosives were still being delevered there at that time for use in the nearby colliery!

[Gwiwer]

Fly-shunting was against the rules at the best of times. With a gunpowder van (even with the possibility of residue inside) I hate to think of the possible repercussions.

[jamie92208]

 

But at Windermere Station the Elterwater gunpowder vans could be unloaded right next door to the locomotive ash road(!)

 

- and they seem to have got away with it!

 

Presumably the Elterwater wagon would have been 'Loaded' not unloaded at Windermere. I don't think they got many returns The works was only just beyoind the north end of the lake. Now a timeshare development that's fascinating to walk round.

 

 

Jamie

[Pennine MC]

I've got a question regarding the Gunpowder Vans, how long are they in use?

 

Some lasted into the early '80s Markus, Paul Bartlett's site will no doubt have a few late examples

 

And could explosives also be send in normal Goods wagons?

 

It depends what you mean by 'explosives' and 'normal' - in the BR period, MOD munitions traffic has variously used Vanwides, Shocvans, Palvans and possibly ordinary Vanfits, and in the air braked era, just about the full range of railway owned AB vans seems to have been used. Judging by events such as the Soham blast, it would seem that sheeted opens were also used in the war years.

[The Stationmaster]

It depends what you mean by 'explosives' and 'normal' - in the BR period, MOD munitions traffic has variously used Vanwides, Shocvans, Palvans and possibly ordinary Vanfits, and in the air braked era, just about the full range of railway owned AB vans seems to have been used. Judging by events such as the Soham blast, it would seem that sheeted opens were also used in the war years.

I suspect that the essential difference is between 'commercial' and 'military' explosive it being very, very rare in my (albeit limited) experience to have military stuff loaded in GPVs (probably because there were so few of them and they were all dedicated to particular flows). The other thing worth bearing in mind is that 'military explosive' covers an extremely wide range of things that might go bang - for example I never came across small arms ammo loaded in anything other than 'ordinary' vans (including Vanfits in days of yore) and what the military describe as 'inert' (i.e. it needs a detonator to make it go bang) could be loaded in any suitable wagon with bombs (including nalapm), in particular, being loaded in sheeted opens because it was the easiest (only?) way to handle the 'packages' although smaller calibre artillery shells seemed to be loaded to closed wagons from what I saw. The really dangerous stuff from a risk viewpoint was flares and such like as well as detonators for mortar bombs and artillery shells and it was always loaded in ordinary vans in my experience (i.e. post late 1960s) when being distributed to unit stores although it might well have been in GPVs when first loaded out of the ROFs.

 

And at one of my stations at one time a customer used to unload his regular consignments of blasting explosive from the next road across from the one which had the burners for another customer's regular flow of bitumen tank cars; just as well the two types of traffic never seemed to arrive on the same day

[DaveF]

The photo below is of two gunpowder vans in an up freight train at Tywyn (Towyn) in 1970. They would be from the explosives factory at Penrhyndeudraeth.

 

Their position in the train is clearly visible.

 

By the way I do have some more Cambrian photos, one day they will apear on flickr.

 

 

 

Tywyn Class 24 D5077 up goods with Gunpowder vans 24th Aug 70 C292

 

 

David

[Pennine MC]

Cracking shot as ever David, and a very rare example of a non-Inverness 24 with ploughs - 5077 I think?

[McRuss]

Thank you for your answer. On one of my modules I've got a quarry, which could receive explosives. The period is early 60s with steam and diesel engines, and late 60s/early 70s (pre TOPS).

 

Markus