buffalo Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I'm thinking about a 4F for S&DJR use and, of course, it should be one of the S&D's own Armstrongs, rather than a common or garden LMS engine. However, all of the photos I've looked at so far show them to have retained their original tenders into BR days, perhaps to the end. Those provided by the LMS mostly had Fowler 3500 gallon tenders, but the Armstrongs appear to have had an older pattern, perhaps a Johnson or Deeley design, with coal rails. Can anyone confirm the type of tender on these engines and, if so, does anyone know of a suitable kit or available rtr tender that could be adapted? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Photographs that I've seen show all the Armstrongs running with Fowler tenders by the 60's. Some with and some without coal rails. Eg, 44557 without in 1961, 44559 with in 1960. What loco are you thinking of usng as a base. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 You're right, it does look like they had Fowlers by the sixties, I was just looking in the wrong book. However my interest is in the earlier tenders. Photos of the Armstrongs arriving new and many more up to the mid fifties show a type of tender more like those seen on 3Fs. That's the one I'm interested in. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think its a Johnson tender but I'm not a definative expert. They were similar to those fitted to 3Fs, but not necessarily the same. 3F tenders I'm seeing have a central vertical bead on the tender side which dosn't exist on the Armstrong tenders. London Road models ( they go to finescale type exhibitions in the M25 area ) might do an etched brass kit of this tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Thanks, I'm no expert on Midland/LMS tenders, either. The Prototype notes for the Brassmasters 4F kit describe four variations on the Johnson tender which vary according to beading and visibility of rivets. Unfortunately, whilst these contain many other interesting pieces of information, they are not specific about the tenders used on the Armstrongs. My best guess so far is that they are the non-beaded variety, but I'll need to study more photos to work out whether they are the visible rivetted type or not. As you say, many of the 3Fs have the variety with the central beading whereas the 4Fs appear to be one of the types without this. Thanks also for the LRM suggestion. They do a Johnson 3250 gallon tender kit, but it looks like the 4Fs had the later 3500 gallon type. Does anyone know the differences? Could a 3250 kit be built to represent a 3500? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Hi Nick, The tenders I think you're looking for are the ones built around 1920/22 they were the fore-runners to the ones we know of as the 'Fowler' tender. They were the same size, 3500 gallon and the frames were identical, there was no beading but plenty of smallish rivets. A book which has drawings and info on the tenders is out on loan so I can't give you any more detail. There is a kit for these tenders from Alan Gibson so give them a call for availability. I'll see if I can find a code for you. I've done one for 4F 43999 of Skipton though mine has a tender cab. Excuse the quality of the photo, the subject was the pointwork and the loco happened to be in the background. Hope that helps, Dave Franks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 You might have to wait for everyone to get home from work for that one !, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I asked the same question on the old S&DJR Forum about a year to 18 months ago, Duncan (Blandford1969) assured me they were all Fowler's by the late 50's, as I knew 44560 had one and wondered about the rest, for my model of 44557 alongside 44560 for our Blandford layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Dave, thanks for the info and the pointer to the Gibson kit. Yes, that looks like the right tender, except for the cab and tall vents. There was no need for water scoops on the S&DJR. By the way, what is the book with the tender details? Paul, I must have forgotten about that. A far from thorough search has come up with a Norman Lockett photo of 44558 with a Fowler tender in 1956, but so far all earlier shots show the early tender. In my case, I've not yet decided on a specific engine but it needs to be in early post-nationalisation form, so I think it has to be an early tender. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted August 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 26, 2011 Based on the photographic evidence in 1954 (Ivo Peters vol 1) 56/60 and 61 still definatley have the Johnson tender. In 1955 57/9 still have Johnson's but 60 now has a Fowler - I have not found when it changed from my quick look. In 1956 57 still has a Johnson - the last year in which I have found from books a photo of a 4f on the line with one. In 1957 57/9 now both have Fowlers. Hope this helps. Kind regards Duncan Kind regards Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, I should just remind everyone that the Armstrongs were right hand drive like other MR engines, but unlike the LMS built ones which were left hand drive. I also teach grandmothers to suck eggs, but only by appointment... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Jenkinson & Essery say the S&D batch along with others built at the same time by Armstrong Whitworth were Fowler's version of the Johnson tender without the central beading but with visible rivetting. They go on to suggest that no exchanges took place before absorbtion into the LMS fleet. Later acquisition of the standard Fowler tender arose from the withdrawal of Austin 7s. As well as right hand drive, a loco in the early 50s would probably have LMS chimney, dome and Ross pop s/valves and have alterations to the front end removing the piston tail rods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 As well as right hand drive, a loco in the early 50s would probably have LMS chimney, dome and Ross pop s/valves and have alterations to the front end removing the piston tail rods. ....... and beaded splashers IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Based on the photographic evidence in 1954 (Ivo Peters vol 1) 56/60 and 61 still definatley have the Johnson tender. In 1955 57/9 still have Johnson's but 60 now has a Fowler - I have not found when it changed from my quick look... Thanks for those dates, Duncan, I've still several books to plough through to narrow it down... At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, I should just remind everyone that the Armstrongs were right hand drive like other MR engines, but unlike the LMS built ones which were left hand drive. Indeed, Richard. Interestingly, a number of other Midland right hand drive 4Fs also appeared on the S&D before and after WW2, including 3835, 3875 and 4046. I wonder if these had been selected because they were rhd? Those that I've noticed all appear to have the early beaded tender. Jenkinson & Essery say the S&D batch along with others built at the same time by Armstrong Whitworth were Fowler's version of the Johnson tender without the central beading but with visible rivetting. They go on to suggest that no exchanges took place before absorbtion into the LMS fleet. Later acquisition of the standard Fowler tender arose from the withdrawal of Austin 7s. Thanks for that. It certainly confirms the impression I have from the photos and the descriptions in the Brassmasters notes. Can you tell me which Jenkinson and Essery book covers these, please? As well as right hand drive, a loco in the early 50s would probably have LMS chimney, dome and Ross pop s/valves and have alterations to the front end removing the piston tail rods. I'm still ploughing through photos on these details. Piston tail covers may be another relevant difference for my period, e.g. 58 still had them in 1947 whereas 59 and 61 had lost them by 1949. ....... and beaded splashers IIRC. Yes, presumably also a Midland feature? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 The following link is a document detailing instructions for building the Alan Gibson 4F kit, but it starts with the LMS Society history of the class, which details the various differences between the various builds of these locos, and there are loads! Anyone considering improving their old Airfix/Hornby model should maybe read this first, but also work from a photograph too. http://steverabone.com/sscalewebsite/Alan%20Gibson%20MR%20LMS%200-6-0%204F.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Invaluable info, and I always thought the Fowler tenders off the Jubilees were swapped with some 8F's - you live, and learn. One thing - I wouldn't put a D11 motor in a 4F, - too high revving, besides they are a bit outdated now along with other open-frame motors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Invaluable info, and I always thought the Fowler tenders off the Jubilees were swapped with some 8F's - you live, and learn. Paul, you were right - Jubilees did swap tenders with 8Fs from 1958 or so onwards. The 'swap' referred to in that document happened much earlier, according to the Irwell 'Book of the Jubilees', in 1937-41. 4Fs were ordered with Stanier tenders but, instead of actually being attached to those engines, they went straight to Jubilees and the 4Fs got Fowler tenders from those Jubilees. There's an interesting 'what if', though - a 4F with a Stanier tender. At least one Compound had one, and I've always thought it looked quite odd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 There's an interesting 'what if', though - a 4F with a Stanier tender. At least one Compound had one, and I've always thought it looked quite odd. See bottom of page 20 of Brian Haresnape's 'Fowler Locomotives', a picture of 44401(about 1964 - 5) with a high sided version (one of 10) of a Fowler 3,500 gal tender built in early Stanier days, not exactly what you may of had in mind, but unusual.Side view profile same as a standard Stanier tender, but full straight sided, not curved in at the top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 I've now been through all of my S&D books -- not a complete collection -- and have managed to come up with the following list of dates for the different tenders. The first date is the latest with a Johnson tender, the second is the earliest with a Fowler tender. In a couple of cases, it appears that there were some Fowler tenders without coal rails, though this may just be poor photos. In three cases, dates supplied above by Duncan (Blandford 1969) narrow the gap further, and these are shown in brackets. 44557 03/09/1955 22/07/1958 (1956 J, 1957 F) 44558 09/09/1954 29/07/1956 44559 20/08/1955 03/05/1959 (1957 F) 44560 21/08/1954 03/05/1958 (1955 F) 44561 03/09/1955 03/05/1959 If anyone can find any photos that narrow these gaps still further, please let me know. The latest with surviving LMS lettering on the tender, but BR numbering on the cab side, is 44559 on 22/08/1950. The latest example I've found with the projecting piston tail covers is 44558 on 20/08/1947. I've still to check various other details of the engines, but most of these changes usually happened well before nationalisation so I don't expect to find much. I now have a Brassmasters 4F kit that should give me some entertainment during the coming months. I've also bought their Fowler tender kit which will allow me to run the 4F with my other 1960s stock. However, I still intend to build a Johnson tender so that I can run the 4F with my other early-1950s S&D stock. I need to contact Colin at Alan Gibson to get some wheels and other stuff, so I'll be following up Dave Franks' suggestion above though, from what I've seen on the web site, I suspect the tender kit is not currently available. I've not yet managed to track down any books containing drawings of the two tender types. Dave F did mention that one exists. However, in the absence of drawings, I'm beginning to wonder if a Fowler tender can be backdated by removing the upper part of the sides and adding a rolled top all round. Unfortunately, there aren't many photos of the tender top, so I don't know whether they are sufficiently similar to make this viable. Any ideas? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Well done, now your next task is to do the same with the change from early to late BR emblem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 Well done, now your next task is to do the same with the change from early to late BR emblem. I left that out to try to keep it simple 44557 BR early on JT, uncertain on FT 44558 BR early on JT and FT to 29/07/1956, late from 07/06/1964 44559 BR early on JT and FT to 12/07/1960, late from 07/07/1962 44560 BRITISH RAILWAYS on JT 19/07/1950, BR early on JT and FT until 21/08/1954, late from 03/05/1958 44561 BR early on JT and FT to 18/07/1959, uncertain thereafter Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 There are two releavnt jenkinson/Essery books - An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives Volume 4 and An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives Volume 4. In another of the Midland series there is some good info on Midland tenders, but the line drawings are not really that great for modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 Thanks, Alan. I have vol 4 of the 'Illustrated Review', but only vol 1 of the 'Illustrated History'. As you say, nothing very useful in the way of drawings. Is vol 4 of the 'Illustrated History' worth getting? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted September 2, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 2, 2011 I look forward to the thread on the Brassmasters 4f. I've got one but not had the courage to start. Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 Pinkmouse had an interesting thread on here describing his build of one which I'm sure will prove invaluable once I get started. Unfortunately, the thread hasn't been updated since last December and he hasn't been online since July. Also found some useful photos and drawings on the 4123 restoration site. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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