Barrier wagons on oil trains

[colin penfold]

I have a rake of Bachmann oil tank wagons and I understand that when steam hauled it was practice to include a normal wagon or two between the loco and front tank wagon, as a barrier to protect the oil tanks from sparks etc.

 

Can anybody advise me on the types of wagons that were habitually used for this duty in the period around nationalisation, preferable on services from Fawley to the midlands (if it varies geographically.)

 

I would be interested to know if there are RTR or kits available to represent the wagons in question (era 4/5)

 

Thanks in advance

[LMS2968]

Generally, any available empty wagon would do and wooden-bodied opens of various heights were the most common, but I have seen box vans and brake vans used for the purpose.

 

As well as sparks from the engine's fire, sparks from brake blocks had to be considered, and with some loads it was usual to have barrier wagons between the rear tank and brake van.

[hmrspaul]

Colin

 

You do not mention what type of oil tank wagons you are discussing. Barriers were required for light petroleum product - petrols, kerosene (Silver tanks) but not for heavy oil which were more numerous - the black tanks. I agree at that time any wagon could be used, but likely to have been RCH style wooden mineral wagons. All wagons were in desperately short supply at the turn of nationalisation and this non revenue use would be avoided. I rather doubt that block trains would have been common - yes during WW2 they were necessary, but for the first years of Nartionalisation tank wagons appear individually or in small rakes in mixed trains.

 

Paul Bartlett

[colin penfold]

Generally, any available empty wagon would do and wooden-bodied opens of various heights were the most common, but I have seen box vans and brake vans used for the purpose.

 

As well as sparks from the engine's fire, sparks from brake blocks had to be considered, and with some loads it was usual to have barrier wagons between the rear tank and brake van.

thanks very much for taking the time to respond

[colin penfold]

Colin

 

You do not mention what type of oil tank wagons you are discussing. Barriers were required for light petroleum product - petrols, kerosene (Silver tanks) but not for heavy oil which were more numerous - the black tanks. I agree at that time any wagon could be used, but likely to have been RCH style wooden mineral wagons. All wagons were in desperately short supply at the turn of nationalisation and this non revenue use would be avoided. I rather doubt that block trains would have been common - yes during WW2 they were necessary, but for the first years of Nartionalisation tank wagons appear individually or in small rakes in mixed trains.

 

Paul Bartlett

Thanks for your time. I have the Bachmann 14t esso tankers which I will be using to represent the fawley-midlands trains that ran via the DNSR. I have photos of them hauled by 9Fs (with barrier wagons) and class 33 cromptons (without barrier wagons) These trains were formed of oil tankers only, not as mixed freights

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Colin

 

Photos I have seen of the Fawley - Bomford Bridge workings in the early 60s had 13t steel opens as barrier wagons in to the diesel era when class 33s took over

 

Kind regards

 

Phil Bullock

[Edwin_m]

There's a report of an accident at Manchester Victoria in 1947 which says that trains of tanks were exempt from pinning down brakes at Miles Platting because of the risk of sparks. Instead they were supposed to attach an extra loco in front for brake force. The one in question didn't bother, with predictable results.

[TheSignalEngineer]

When "Stacker" Steadman did his famous 3-wagon trick whilst shunting in Washwood Heath No.4 (1968 IIRC) there were two 12T vans between the tanks and the brake van.

[scotcent]

Where tank wagons, in ones or twos, appeared in "ordinary" goods trains, they would be somewhere away from the ends of the train, and the wagons on each side would be (more or less) non inflammable, but not necessarily empty. I saw this in the 50's on the Callander and Oban. Unfortunately didn't take photographs.

 

Allan F

[Wolfy]

I might be wrong but for the light petroleum products wouldn't an empty be more of a risk than a full tank? I know the navy's fast boats in WWII used outside tanks last because a full tank if holed would just leak, whereas the vapour in an empty one was an an explosion risk. I know nobody was shooting at trains in the 50s, so this is a long-winded way of saying aksing whether silver empties would have been treated with any less care than full ones.

 

(Edited for spelling and clarity.)

[Pennine MC]

I might be wrong but for the light petroleum products wouldn't an empty be more of a risk than a full tank? ... the vapour in an empty one was an an explosion risk.

 

Similarly I'm not 100% sure but ISTR reading that in at least some cases, empties were treated the same as fulls, probably for that reason. It would at least equalise the barrier wagon movements so they didnt congregate at one end.

 

1960s pics of the Fawley workings do tend to show 13T Highfits, but not exclusively steel ones. As Paul suggests, in general terms it would make sense for wagons not in high demand elsewhere to serve as barriers - hence a prevalence of fitted opens, at a time when vans were increasingly preferred for merchandise traffics.

[Guest Phil]

When "Stacker" Steadman did his famous 3-wagon trick whilst shunting in Washwood Heath No.4 (1968 IIRC) there were two 12T vans between the tanks and the brake van.

 

 

i didn't realise Mr Steadman's misdemeanor involved tanks. My recollection of the photograph was a vertical mix of vans and brakevan. You've prompted me to try and dig it out for another look. Thanks.

 

As others have said, the barrier requirements were for higher flashpoint products than just black oil, and there are plenty of piccies of the Fawley-Bromford Bridge train with a couple of "HG"s as barriers.

 

This shot shows two different wagons in use ;

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/images/droitwich1.jpg

 

This is also captioned as a Fawley-Bromford bridge tank train but the first four wagons certainly arn't tanks

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/images/droitwich2.jpg

 

Another rather nice colour shot with opens in use as barriers ;

 

http://www.lhi.org.uk/images/dw018.jpg

 

 

Hope this help

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Fawley - Bromford Class B tanks ran without barrier wagons even when still worked by 9Fs.

 

Edit - I took a photo of the empties one day at Lifford around 1960, very murky but clearly no barrier wagons.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

i didn't realise Mr Steadman's misdemeanor involved tanks. My recollection of the photograph was a vertical mix of vans and brakevan. You've prompted me to try and dig it out for another look. Thanks.

 

 

Checked the date, it was about 8th April 1969. The loco was 3576. There is a picture taken on 11th April in Railway Magazine, June 1969, but it only shows the 08 and brake van. the rest had been removed. I do have a press cutting somewhere with the full stack in place. It was a BR brake van, upright approxomately where the stop block had been, a van upside down in the middle and a van the right way up on top.

[Guest stuartp]

 

Similarly I'm not 100% sure but ISTR reading that in at least some cases, empties were treated the same as fulls, probably for that reason.

 

Treated as loaded unless purged, I'm fairly sure that was in the Working Manual for Rail Staff, but I'm not sure where it would have been before the WMFRS was invented, and I'm fairly sure it applied to all flammable liquids of whatever class.

[chris_irl]

 

Checked the date, it was about 8th April 1969. The loco was 3576. There is a picture taken on 11th April in Railway Magazine, June 1969, but it only shows the 08 and brake van. the rest had been removed. I do have a press cutting somewhere with the full stack in place. It was a BR brake van, upright approxomately where the stop block had been, a van upside down in the middle and a van the right way up on top.

what happened to get to that point???

[TheSignalEngineer]

what happened to get to that point???

Washwood Heath Down Sidings had a long inclined shunt neck at the Derby end. It was mainly used for gravity shunting coal traffic. Stacker went straight through the block and the 08 stopped in the soft ground beyond. The momentum of the tanks kept them going until they reached the brake van, pushing the barrier wagons upwards as they went.

[Fat Controller]

I might be wrong but for the light petroleum products wouldn't an empty be more of a risk than a full tank? I know the navy's fast boats in WWII used outside tanks last because a full tank if holed would just leak, whereas the vapour in an empty one was an an explosion risk. I know nobody was shooting at trains in the 50s, so this is a long-winded way of saying aksing whether silver empties would have been treated with any less care than full ones.

 

(Edited for spelling and clarity.)

'Discharged' tanks were, and are, treated in the same way as loaded ones precisely because of this; only 'purged' tanks, and ex-works examples would be treated otherwise.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Treated as loaded unless purged, I'm fairly sure that was in the Working Manual for Rail Staff, but I'm not sure where it would have been before the WMFRS was invented, and I'm fairly sure it applied to all flammable liquids of whatever class.

It was in the WMFRS but there's a niggle in the back of my mind that it was added in an amendment at some stage.

[Southernman46]

 

Treated as loaded unless purged, I'm fairly sure that was in the Working Manual for Rail Staff, but I'm not sure where it would have been before the WMFRS was invented, and I'm fairly sure it applied to all flammable liquids of whatever class.

 

"Discharged" is / was the term used for an unloaded but unpurged tank

[hmrspaul]

 

 

i

As others have said, the barrier requirements were for higher flashpoint products than just black oil, and there are plenty of piccies of the Fawley-Bromford Bridge train with a couple of "HG"s as barriers.

 

This shot shows two different wagons in use ;

 

http://www.miac.org..../droitwich1.jpg

 

 

Hope this help

The first photograph appears to have a SR 8 plank open merchandise as the first barrier http://paulbartlett....b2f86#h3fab2f86 Nice! Available as 7mm kit from Parkside - in 4mm I don't know about plastic kits, but I have a whitemetal one - ABS I almost certainly believe.

 

I thought the original request was about the beginning of nationalisation, when block trains would have been rarer as the amount of product being used altered considerably in the first years of BR. There are two books which cover the oil and rail industry. In Tourret he gives the total consumption of "Petroleum products" excluding ships bunkering and exports as in 1950 15277000 long tons, and in 1965 66920000 which is why I have suggested that for the original request these tanks would much more normally be worked as part of ordinary freight trains - and slowly as they were invariably unfitted until 1958 and the introduction of the Chas Roberts designed VB tanks, we all know as the "Airfix tanks"

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

 

 

i

As others have said, the barrier requirements were for higher flashpoint products than just black oil, and there are plenty of piccies of the Fawley-Bromford Bridge train with a couple of "HG"s as barriers.

 

This shot shows two different wagons in use ;

 

http://www.miac.org..../droitwich1.jpg

 

 

Hope this help

The first photograph appears to have a SR 8 plank open merchandise as the first barrier http://paulbartlett....b2f86#h3fab2f86 Nice! Available as 7mm kit from Parkside - in 4mm I don't know about plastic kits, but I have a whitemetal one - ABS I almost certainly believe.

 

I thought the original request was about the beginning of nationalisation, when block trains would have been rarer as the amount of product being used altered considerably in the first years of BR. There are two books which cover the oil and rail industry. In Tourret he gives the total consumption of "Petroleum products" excluding ships bunkering and exports as in 1950 15277000 long tons, and in 1965 66920000 which is why I have suggested that for the original request these tanks would much more normally be worked as part of ordinary freight trains - and slowly as they were invariably unfitted until 1958 and the introduction of the Chas Roberts designed VB tanks, we all know as the "Airfix tanks"

 

Paul Bartlett

[colin penfold]

The first photograph appears to have a SR 8 plank open merchandise as the first barrier http://paulbartlett....b2f86#h3fab2f86 Nice! Available as 7mm kit from Parkside - in 4mm I don't know about plastic kits, but I have a whitemetal one - ABS I almost certainly believe.

 

I thought the original request was about the beginning of nationalisation, when block trains would have been rarer as the amount of product being used altered considerably in the first years of BR. There are two books which cover the oil and rail industry. In Tourret he gives the total consumption of "Petroleum products" excluding ships bunkering and exports as in 1950 15277000 long tons, and in 1965 66920000 which is why I have suggested that for the original request these tanks would much more normally be worked as part of ordinary freight trains - and slowly as they were invariably unfitted until 1958 and the introduction of the Chas Roberts designed VB tanks, we all know as the "Airfix tanks"

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Thanks Paul, I actually have one of those ABS 8 planks already so that's a start! Sorry for misleading you by my post-nationalisation comment - my plans involve mid 40s to late 50s with this train towards the end of the sequence. Appreciate the help