R2986 Hornby 'A Date with the Duchy'

[gwrrob]

The packaging looks a bit tempting but on closer inspection is this set really worth from £200 - 230 ?depending where you look.

 

It has three old inferior to Bachmann Mk1s and a certificate to go with the new BR Castle but I think its overpriced myself and I think one for collectors rather than modellers of named trains.

 

http://www.ehattons.com/35816/Hornby_Model_Railways_R2986_A_Date_With_The_Duchy_Train_pack_Barry_J_Freeman_Collection_Limited_edition_/StockDetail.aspx

[craigwelsh]

Yeah I picked up on that here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44833-hornbys-future-is-cheap-toys/page__view__findpost__p__508313

 

Apparently the print is worth £35 but that still gives you some rather expensive Hornby mk1s!

 

Its interesting to note from Hattons that the box seems to show crimson and cream not the choc/cream coaches actually contained..

 

The Duchess set is slightly better as you get 3 of the newer Hornby Stanier coaches.

 

Its all a far cry from the £54 such sets popped up in Littlewoods a couple of years back though!

[gwrrob]

The Castle is available on its own split from the set here http://www.modelfair.com/acatalog/Hornby_00_Gauge_Steam_Locomotives.htmlfor £99.

 

Its the early crest and I assume its detail is the same as Beverston unless someone more knowledgeable can let me know.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6024-Hornby-castle-arriving/page__pid__455735__st__475#entry455735

[cary hill]

According to the Hornby website Beverston/Ince Castle £123-132 RRP, Coaches 3 X £23 = £69 RRP and the print £35 RRP as mentioned above - mininum £227 RRP.

 

So no "saving" on the price of the constituent parts and a bizarre mixture of the "old" and "new", which doesn't even look that attractive at a discounted £200.

 

£99 for the split new model Castle is more attractive though, but I think haste might be needed as there are only 5 on offer.

 

I wonder how many of the 1,000 packs will eventually be split.

[craigwelsh]

£99 for the split new model Castle is more attractive though, but I think haste might be needed as there are only 5 on offer.

 

I wonder how many of the 1,000 packs will eventually be split.

Probably most of them, Rails were offering £99 loco/coaches a couple of weeks back.

 

£99 isn't that cheap for a Castle when most have been sold off at < £80 though if you particularly wan this one then £99 it will be.

 

The snag with the Hawksworth coaches is they aren't really a rake coach though we may see 3 of them in a box at some stage.

[cary hill]

 

 

The snag with the Hawksworth coaches is they aren't really a rake coach though we may see 3 of them in a box at some stage.

 

I think that is part of Hornby's problem - S.R.,L.N.E.R and L.M.S modellers all have some decent(although necessarily not perfect) coaches which Hornby can use in Pre- and Post-Nationalisation Train Packs, whereas it is more of a struggle re G.W.R. train packs as suitable coaches comprise only the venerable outclassed Mk1's, the equally venerable quasi-Colletts or the Hawksworths.

 

The postion is not much better re motive power as only the Castle and Grange really cut the mustard and the Grange is probably not "top-link" enough, except maybe West of Plymouth.

[Matabiau]

Is it really worth Hornby's while updating the mark1 coach? Even if they did consider it I doubt they could match the price and the variety of the Bachmann offer. Perhaps it should be consigned to the Railroad range in it's current state where it would do Hornby proud. At the top end Hornby could look at other GWR stock that lasted through into nationalisation, perhaps even some suburban stock?

[cary hill]

Is it really worth Hornby's while updating the mark1 coach? Even if they did consider it I doubt they could match the price and the variety of the Bachmann offer. Perhaps it should be consigned to the Railroad range in it's current state where it would do Hornby proud. At the top end Hornby could look at other GWR stock that lasted through into nationalisation, perhaps even some suburban stock?

 

Definitely a lost battle re Mk1 coaches, wouldn't disagree at all about top-end Collett mainline or suburban stock, as these would be better than the slightly "niche" Hawksworths for Train Pack purposes, but I suspect I'll have slowly built what I need long before anything better comes along from Hornby.

[gwrrob]

Further research on this set with Taunton Castle reveals the model should have the Hawksworth tender in the period depicted.The split model comes in a polystyrene tray only too.No box.

[brushman47544]

Further research on this set with Taunton Castle reveals the model should have the Hawksworth tender in the period depicted.The split model comes in a polystyrene tray only too.No box.

Maybe, but you can hardly blame Hornby in this case. They've simply reproduced the loco as shown in the painting.

 

However, this is not the first painting by Malcolm Root called "The Royal Duchy" of a Castle at this location, but in the earlier version the Castle had a late crest - see http://store.rothbur...&product_id=360. Presumably for copyright reasons the paintings were redone with slight differences and the crest was changed without checking authenticity - a late crest version perhaps still being a no-no at the time of announcement because of the Swindon L/E?

 

EDIT: Silly me - wrong artist ! Perhaps it was the A4 painting in this series that was redone by the artist to change the coaches and/or livery something that Hornby had in its catalogue.

[cary hill]

 

However, this is not the first painting by Malcolm Root called "The Royal Duchy" of a Castle at this location, but in the earlier version the Castle had a late crest - see http://store.rothbur...&product_id=360. Presumably for copyright reasons the paintings were redone with slight differences and the crest was changed without checking authenticity - a late crest version perhaps still being a no-no at the time of announcement because of the Swindon L/E?

 

As this Hornby Train Pack forms part of the Hornby "Barry J Freeman" Collection I can't see the relevance of the Malcolm Root painting, but having looked at the Malcolm Root painting, I wonder if the locomotive featuring in it is a Castle anyway, as the boiler is "massive", driving wheel splashers are not apparent and the cab appears to be a cutaway non glazed version - is it portraying a 47xx on top link passenger duty? A relatively unusual subject if so, and put me down for one when the Hornby "Malcolm Root" collection Train Pack featuring a 47xx comes out.

 

Could someone with more knowledge have a look at the Malcolm Root painting and tell me that I am barking up the wrong tree?

[gwrrob]

Blimey you're correct as its 4704 with my eyesite. Put me down for the new Hornby model in 2012.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Royal-Duchy-steam-train-greetings/dp/B001AJTS76

[BR(W)]

The Castle is available on its own split from the set here http://www.modelfair...motives.htmlfor £99.

 

Its the early crest and I assume its detail is the same as Beverston unless someone more knowledgeable can let me know.

 

http://www.rmweb.co....475#entry455735

Hello, gwrrob.

 

The only details that differ from 5068 are, as far as I can tell, the cab grabrails and the oil pipe covers on the boiler-smokebox join: 7036 has the correct, right-angled grabrail of the post-war batches (5098 on, inc.), whereas 5068 has the, again correct, pre-war, straight pattern; 7036's oil pipe covers are a different matter, however, and Hornby would appear to have got it completely wrong: there simply shouldn't be one on the left hand side (thanks to Hattons for some excellent photographs, by the way). The superfuous cover is well illustrated here:

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/images/products/R2986_30271_Qty1_2.jpg

 

Referring to your later post (#9), do we actually know the period depicted? Yes, 7036 was built with the Hawksworth tender as were all BR-built locomotives - 7008 on, inc. But Hornby's model of 7036 is not in 'as-built' (ie 1950) condition (she has modified steampipes), and as tenders were indiscriminately paired with suitable locomotives at overhaul, she could well have acquired a Collett type by the date of the train pack and, of course, the print which inspired it. So what is the date of the print? Here I am assuming the period span to be from summer 1956, the earliest date for chocolate and cream Mk.1s (although I think even 1958 is only slightly more realistic given the BR roundels), to summer 1958, surely the latest date for a top-link locomotive still to be sporting the 'unicycling lion' BR totem; and 'summer' because the print is obviously of a summer scene. So 7036 would have been between six and eight years old in the picture - time enough for a few changes of tender.

 

All this has led me to wonder if the original painting is based upon a photograph, in which case I should dearly love to see it, because my instictive conclusion from the foregoing is that the work is rather more loosely interpretative than strictly representational: the contemporaneity of BR roundels on the coaching stock and an early crest on the tender just seems too implausible. Anyone agree?

 

Incidentally, to illuminate the point about tenders, photographs show 7036 after shopping in August 1959 when she was fitted with a double chimney, etc., attached to a Hawksworth tender; following the next shopping, however, she had been befriended by a Collett type. And there are pictures of 5070 in the early 50s resplendent in green, paired with a rather dowdy, embarrassed-looking, lined, black tender (probably from a 4900?), a swap likely to have been carried out at a running shed, in my view.

 

As ever, as the experts keep telling us, for absolute fidelity a reliably dated photograph is essential!

 

Regards,

 

BR(W).

[gwrrob]

Thanks for your informative reply BR[W].The Hornby catalogue states for this set to be 1957 at which time it had the Hawksworth tender according to my source.Following your info I now know that 7036 is'nt a suitable donor for a possible 5049 'Earl of Plymouth' whereas 5068 might be !

[brushman47544]

 

As this Hornby Train Pack forms part of the Hornby "Barry J Freeman" Collection I can't see the relevance of the Malcolm Root painting,

Oops. Quite right. Can't think why I got that wrong - probably because I remembered the Malcolm Root painting and they look similar and have the same title. And I seem to remember reading somewhere that for one of this series of Train Packs the painting was redone by the artist - perhaps it was the A4 painting to change the coaches and/or livery something that Hornby had in its catalogue.

 

That's my excuse anyway!!!

[gwrrob]

Now been reduced to just over £150 .I wonder why .

 

http://www.ehattons.com/35816/Hornby_R2986__A_Date_With_The_Duchy_train_pack_B_J_Freeman_Collection_Castle_Class_4_6_0_70/StockDetail.aspx

[fender]

Now been reduced to just over £150 .I wonder why .

 

http://www.ehattons....tockDetail.aspx

 

I noticed that too. but still pricey for those coaches...

[Ozexpatriate]

It will be interesting to see whether in 2013 Hornby persist with their premium-priced, 'collectable' limited editions that retread existing tooling, such as the "Royal Mail" series or B.J. Freeman print series like "A Date with the Duchy" here.

 

I have no issue with the concept of a limited edition per se, (the NRM versions are a great idea with premium pricing for a worthy cause) and I certainly have no objection to limited production runs, but the idea that you can package the concept to command premium pricing for existing tooling that regularly sells for much less is very hit or miss.

[gwrrob]

Finally a retailer excepting that this set won't sell and has split the pack up.I presume the Castle is also available. http://www.modelfair.com/product/44942/Hornby-r2986b-split-from-the-train-pack-%27a-date-with-the-duchy%27--a-rake-of-3-british-railways-mark-1-coaches

 

If Craig Welsh in post 5 is correct that the print is worth £35 then this is a 'bargain' for what it is.Although a new Hornby Mk1 is imminent to make these even more dated.