David Bigcheeseplant Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Having to use insurance values for putting on Railex, it does seem that most values people give to their layouts are just random. I have values in the past from ??100 to ??250000; I would guess that the value should be what the cost would be for a professional to rebuild the model. I would guess that a layout with all stock and buildings brought in would be easier to value than a fully scratch built masterpiece, but exactly how would you value your layout. I must admit we used to state Saffron Street should be valued at ??15000, which maybe if you were to add up the time it took to build everything at ??10 an hour would not be far off the mark. Thoughts please! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted December 17, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 17, 2009 Dave At our club where 99% of stuff is kit built etc. We normally only put an insurance value in for the stock. Here we normally take the kit price and add what it would cost to get someone like John James to professionally build it, do this for all the locos, coaches wagons etc. Say perhaps about ??1000 per train or more and you end up with a layout with stock worth about ??25K plus. Think about your average RTR train say ??100 a loco, plus ??20 a coach. a 5 coach train is already ??200 so all of a sudden on big layouts you are very quickly going into 4 figure sums. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 I forgot to add we ask for insurance value of stock and also insurance value of layout, it the layout part I am more interested in how people calculate their figures. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 ??100 seems ridiculously low and ??250000 far too high - but then again a big 7mm layout with a lot of stock Surely the first part of the calculation has to include the most easily stolen/damaged items and so that is the stock. Replacement cost? But I'm not so convinced about the layout - it could be argued that replacement cost is not appropriate - more like the resale cost which we know is much less. In the end, doesn't this come down to what the insurance company thinks it is worth and whether the policy covers full new for old replacement. It is no use insuring a layout and stock for ??250000 when they will come to assess its real value as only ??250. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 It would be interesting to hear if anyone has ever had to claim for the full replacent cost of an exhibition layout (inc stock) and how the amount claimed, matched up with the value given by the owner. I must admit the valuations I put on my layouts are a bit 'finger in the air' and mostly relate to the stock. Quite possibly I'm undervaluing them but I can always build another layout. I might not be able to replace the stock (exactly) though. steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 David, So what value would you put on Borchester Market for instance. It can't be replaced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 It would be interesting to hear if anyone has ever had to claim for the full replacent cost of an exhibition layout (inc stock) and how the amount claimed, matched up with the value given by the owner. I must admit the valuations I put on my layouts are a bit 'finger in the air' and mostly relate to the stock. Quite possibly I'm undervaluing them but I can always build another layout. I might not be able to replace the stock (exactly) though. steve So on your way to/from an exhibition, the van doors fly open, your complete layout falls out the back and gets run over by an artic. I heard of a trader who on his way to a show, was rammed up the back by a woman who'd fallen asleep in her brand new BMW. His stock was knocked out of the vehicle, then he saw other vehicles run over his stand. Insurance paid up without quibble on the BMW, I don't think he ever got any real money off her insurers for his losses. And it wasn't his fault. How about a burglary? Insurance company loss adjusters are very good at reducing your claim. Get your stock/layout valued now, before it's too late. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Is there also a potential problem here of duplication / overlap of insurance policies? Presumably if it is a club layout they have it already insured. Similarly a personal layout - though not ensured for exhibition - it would need to be insured for transportation. I would have expected it to be cheaper to add this on to existing policies? It just seems to be another burden on the exhibiting organisation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 David, So what value would you put on Borchester Market for instance. It can't be replaced. Thats the problem, I ask the question from the owners, and I expect most people just pull a figure out of the air, most scratch built buildings are made from card or plasticard so value of materials is very low, so it is the value of the finished item, its like valueing a painting its just paint and canvas! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 Magnet insurance who insure most exhibitions give cover from leaving home through the exhibition weekend and return home. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Insurance companies always do their best to wriggle out of paying out, that's what they have to do due to the ridiculous level of fraudulent claims. How many times have you heard somebody say 'my telly/washing machine/fridge or whatever has packed up/got broken/damaged, I'm going to claim it on my insurance and just for good measure I'll add something else in as well?' Leaving stock aside even layouts can be expensive items, Deepcar cost us well over ??2,000 in materials alone 20 years ago, this allows nothing for labour cost. I would suggest that any decent sized exhibition layout will cost at least as much and probably much more. You have to factor in a cost for labour even though built by club members or individuals in their spare time, many layouts represent several yesrs work and to see it all trashed would be devastating to many people. Money may not replace the lost items but can help soften the blow. Add in stock allowing a minimum ??100 per loco, many RTR are now approaching this figure, with kit/scratch built 3 or 4 times as much. When I go to a show I have large plastic crate with my locos in and reckon on there being between ??3,500 and ??4,000 at replacement value in that box alone, add in rolling stock at perhaps ??1,000, add in other operators stock, you are soon getting to ??20,000! I'm only giving examples from my experience, moving up to O gauge, you could at least double my figures I would think. Another member brought his scratchbult DCC O gauge class 76 with fully working pantographs in last week, I would expect an insurance value of at least ??750 on one of those alone, he plans to have at least 5! We have found the scheme now offered by Magnet to be very good, from the days when it was the Dennison scheme. As an example of their flexibility we were invited to exhibit Deepcar at an NRM event a year or two back. The NRM didn't carry specific insurance for external exhibitors, that normally being arranged by the exhibitors, such as 12in:ft loco owners. We asked if Magnet could extend our club insurance to cover this as a one-off and were very pleased when they sent us an endorsement to our club policy, at no extra cost. I have known exhibitors who 'take the mickey' with their insurance valuations and lose their invite. There will always be those looking to take advantage, I suggest that they won't get many invites for long though. Insurance is a significant but very neccessary cost on shows, I have heard of shows who only give a bare minimum level of cover, something like 'materials only'. I would not take my stock to such a show, the basic cost of my stock probably being around ??1,000 the rest is my time spread over maybe 25 years, which I cannot rewind. If a layout is worth having at a show, it is worth a decent insurance value, this is a judgement which must be made by the organisers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 We figure on an average price for a high quality US freightcar of ??25 - there's approx 50 in our main line freights so ??1250 per train, approx 30 in our secondary main freights so ??750 per train, 9 roads of the former ??11250, 5 roads of the latter ??3750 so a nice round ??15000 in terms of freightcars, figure on 3x loco's per train at ??100 average, that gives a figure of ??19200 for stock. Whilst that's not how we would usually stock the layout in the real world, (it would be somewhat overestimating the number of freightcars and underestimating the loco's on hand at an average show) but we reckon it likely averages out to being fairly close to a true figure without getting unduly anal about exactly what item of stock goes to a given show and what it's value is. I think we usually tend to put a nominal ??25k on insurance forms including that stock figure, leaving about 6k as layout value. That might sound high but it could well be undervaluing it for replacement cost, for instance if you allow a nominal ??15 per point and ??10 for a tortoise and some wires and a switch to work it that's ??1325 of the cost right there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted December 18, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2009 Problem is that high insurance values can also scare smaller clubs as they have no idea what the stock really costs. I've seen the value of the stock on mine double in the last 18 months and my old insurance value would only cover the locos now. I calculate my value on the cost of replacing stock and the materials for rebuilding the layout. I don't include my time as if I was to have to start again I would do something different so I don't feel right in charging for my labour too. I appreciate this is different for others who have built their dream layout or for clubs where they would need to replace it with something similar as that's what members are in the club for. I also tend not to leave locos at shows overnight if they are no longer available as you can't replace them so no insurance would compensate and I figure they are safer with me at all times and insured on my own policy when in the car etc. I was watching the Shades of the Harz layout at Warley and with the 2-10-2's now at ??1500 to ??1600 each and the other locos in the ??1500-??2000 bracket I should think that layout must have stock insurance of ??40-50,000 alone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Is there also a potential problem here of duplication / overlap of insurance policies? Presumably if it is a club layout they have it already insured. Similarly a personal layout - though not ensured for exhibition - it would need to be insured for transportation. I would have expected it to be cheaper to add this on to existing policies? It just seems to be another burden on the exhibiting organisation. Er no.. If it's a club layout , the club insurance - if it exists and is adequete - will cover it as contents whilst in the building . Not outside. If it's a personal layout then it may be covered under the household policy while at home , if seperately listed, but not if you transport it to or a show or at someone else's premises There are only a couple of specialist brokers arranging policies for model railways - I would be extremely doubtful that any general household insurer would be prepared to extend domestic cover for an exhibition. And I strongly suspect a lot of clubs don't have adequete cover at their club rooms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Er no.. If it's a club layout , the club insurance - if it exists and is adequete - will cover it as contents whilst in the building . Not outside. If it's a personal layout then it may be covered under the household policy while at home , if seperately listed, but not if you transport it to or a show or at someone else's premises There are only a couple of specialist brokers arranging policies for model railways - I would be extremely doubtful that any general household insurer would be prepared to extend domestic cover for an exhibition. And I strongly suspect a lot of clubs don't have adequete cover at their club rooms. I'm obviously not an insurance broker. But I would have thought that there still could be conflicts between insurer's. I am not suggesting there should be no cover provided by the event organiser. But I would only expect it to be while at the venue - particularly in public show (damage) and while stored (fire/theft risk). I know we all like to think our layouts are worth more than they really are. Hence my question of how the insurer looks at it - is it really replacement cost new for old - or it it simply the material cost. If the former then you can start to add labour and all that extra detailing, if the latter then it just becomes scrap or resale value. Just like with car insurance, you can insure your car for far more than you will get for it. Just because you spent hours cleaning it and have added fluffy dice and simulated leather seat covers, and have regukarky serviced it does not increase its value. A layout's value remains what you can obtain for it in a sale. IMO an obviously recoverable item such as a point motor has a clear replacement catalogue price, the same goes for the rolling stock (and I don't think weathering adds any value). But when it comes to a card scenic item or the scenics, etc. I cannot see an insurance company covering that - and I don't think they should be expected to. Besides, just what is the risk of anything happening anyway? The one event that seems most likely is the theft of an individual item of stock or a complete stock box. Has anyone ever had a whole layout stolen? has anyone ever heard of an exhibition hall with its layouts being destroyed by fire? I wouldn't want a full replacement (new for old) - it would never be the same, would always be some other modeller's interpretation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Besides, just what is the risk of anything happening anyway? The one event that seems most likely is the theft of an individual item of stock or a complete stock box. Has anyone ever had a whole layout stolen? has anyone ever heard of an exhibition hall with its layouts being destroyed by fire? Add vehicle being involved in an accident on the way, which is I think a far more likely scenario. Having said that just because it doesn't happen to folk on a weekly basis doesn't mean it's not worth considering. If a hall was destroyed by fire i'd much rather know the layout was covered... I wouldn't want a full replacement (new for old) - it would never be the same, would always be some other modeller's interpretation. I don't think anyone has suggested the policy would involve a third party rebuilding your layout, that's a bit of a curious idea. Where i've had dealings with "new for old" policies it usually means they will pay the new value of the same or an equivalently specced item? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I have heard of clubrooms burning down and fire, smoke or water damage to layouts. Roof leaks are an obvious example (there was the famous year when Chatham show was held in a marquee) . I know my club's insurers won't cover members stock while on the premises, so they are very unlikely to cover layouts in transit to shows, let alone members tock in transit to a show. Glorious NSE Add vehicle being involved in an accident on the way, which is I think a far more likely scenario. I wouldn't expect the van hire company's insurance to pay , either Its perfectly reasonable to consider the replacement value of a layout as being the cost of the materials to build it , and that does include scenic materials and structures. Because that is how much hard cash you will have to pay out to recreate the thing yourself - assuming your own time is costed as free. If you know a place that's handing out free Woodland Sc enics , plaster, plasticard Scrap value is not the same as material cost. You do not insure your house for the scrap value of the bricks (nil) . 2nd hand market price is a very questionable yardstick when you can't simply go out and buy another. It's fine for cars where you can find an equivalent vehicle for sale quite readily. However there isn't a transparent market for 2nd hand layouts - its illiquid , erratic and the items simply aren't alike . That doesn't mean they don't have value. Material replacement cost is reasonable precisely because you can't buy a new layout off the shelf. So if it was irrepairably damaged, you (or a club) would have to build a replacement, and would have to buy the materials to do so Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I don't think anyone has suggested the policy would involve a third party rebuilding your layout, that's a bit of a curious idea. Oh but I think that is exactly what is being said by giving all these estimated costs for labour/time. I get paid an awl lot more than ??10 /hr (a figure quoted earlier) and it takes me longer than most (possibly) / some to build a layout - it wouldn't take me long to reach some ridiculous figure for my rebuilding costs. But like most people they actually do not get paid for leisure time (and it is a hobby/leisure activity) I still think the prime concern is/should be for stock where the most risk exists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi Kenton, then broadly I agree with what you're saying there - stock is by far our largest cost - roughly 4 times the value we put in for the layout portion, although we may be undervaluing that bit. I think speaking personally our group would cope with that undervaluing of the main layout though, whilst all the stock is owned by members (so we try and get a plausible figure right for that) the layout is jointly owned - a figure of 6k would at least get us straight on with building a replacement (i'm not convinced we would neccesarily build the same thing!) - and as that would take several years any shortfall would be absorbed as we went along. I doubt it would be anywhere close to getting "proffessionals" to build it for us though. I wouldn't expect the van hire company's insurance to pay , either No, just to reiterate/expand i'd consider the movement part of it to be the riskiest of the lot from the point of view of a layout owner - whilst somebody stealing a whole layout from the exhibition hall is clearly unlikely, somebody taking off in your van whilst you've stopped for a coffee at the motorway services could result in you losing the lot in one hit with very little chance of recovery, similarly vehicle fire or accident doesn't really bear thinking about in terms of what it would do to the layout/stock. To add insult to (possibly literal!) injury you'll probably get hit with whatever excess you had on the van insurance as well... Oh well, keep smiling. Happy Christmas all! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Individual items of stock get nicked off layouts all the time, although some shows are worse than others, so you are right, stock is the most likely to be claimed for. That's why I have gone mad at people who are supposed to be looking after a stand with my stock on, and I've come back to find them elsewhere or not really paying attention. I can't remember ever hearing an example of a whole layout ever having been claimed for, but as others have said, total loss is a possibility, and therefore I'd expect to be covered by the inviting exhibitions insurance from the moment it left home (or the clubrooms) until the moment it got back. The Mona Lisa isn't only worth the replacement cost of the paint and canvas, so why should a layout be? Valuing a layout is however difficult, they have no real re-sale value, being often worth less than the materials used to construct them, yet the time lavished on most layouts does have a value. As far as I can see the only way of valuing it can be the time it would take a professional to build a copy times by that professionals hourly rate. If I had a layout that I had 'valued' at ??25000 and it was destroyed, the insurer might well question my valuation, but it's a starting place for negtiation. Exhibition insurance is simply one of many overheads that will be incurred, and the premium per ??1000 value isn't all that high, so being a bit over generous probaby won't hurt, but I would have thought that most good exhibition managers will have established the cost of each layout (including any insurance premium expence) before they issue the invite? I suspect most clubs who meet in rented rooms once a week have no insurance coverageof their own layouts, so rely on that of the exhibition when they take a layout out. If no insurance is provided then I wouldn't accept an invite - if that's been skimped on, what else is? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnb Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Always a thorny subject!! My normal assessment of exhibition insurance value is to start with the replacement costs for any R-T-R stock including a bit for changing couplings and wheels. Kit built items, I will start with the replacement costs of the kit and extras like motors and wheels. Then add a bit for paint, glues, O&S etc, that usually works out to around 15%/25% on top of the buy price. Layouts, again it's the costs of all the wood, track, fixed electrics and so on, again with a smallish allowance on top for the O&S. Then I add in the controller prices AND the values of the contents of the tool boxes that I carry with me. I then quote value to the nearest ??1000 above my total figure so for a figure of say ??2600 I would quote ??3000. Bearing in mind that I will frequently often give such values a year or more before the show concerned. Basically then that is the replacement costs of everything that I take to a show. I do not include the costs of professionally rebuilding the layout and kit built stuff or for my time in building the exhibit. Firstly I would be very unlikely incur the professional rebuild costs as I would rebuild things myself. As for my time, well it's my hobby and I enjoyed the building. If I did have such a disaster I would claim for the value calculated as sbove and most likely then build something different anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 The idea that only rolling stock has any value raises some of my hackles here. I don't expect ever to exhibit Blacklade , even though it's theoretically possible. But I'd consider its insurance value - ignoring stock - to include the cost of the Marcway pointwork (??225) , the Tortoise point motors and decoders (another ??200), about ??75 for the timber and sundry hardware, then there's the electromagnets , the various building kits , the DCC system,(say ??125) the 16V transformer for the auxilary circuits, the 15V DC transformer bought for the magnets, the signal kits. So a little "shunting plank", without any stock , is in the ??800-1000 bracket, just on material costs. No, I would not swallow that kind of loss as out of pocket costs, and my household insurers won't cover it outside the flat A club continous circuit layout is likely to be of the order of ??5000-10,000 in material costs depending on size. A full DCC system "Start set " is going to be at least ??300 - by the time you've added boosters, extra power districts , extra controllers, Railroad and Co , (not to mention the laptop it runs on and the @USB interface), accessory decoders , I'd expect you'd be over ??1000 just on the layout DCC system (and I don't mean the decoders in the stock) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 The Mona Lisa isn't only worth the replacement cost of the paint and canvas, so why should a layout be? Simply because the Mona Lisa has a clearly defined value - the price it was last sold at or the return achievable on renting it out to other galleries. A layout's value, by comparison is its market value which often is a lot less than the sentimental value we would like to place on it. You might even say a layout as a work of art is priceless. But to an insurance company and anyone who doesn't think so highly of it - it is only the s/h value of its recoverable parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted December 18, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2009 I'm obviously not an insurance broker. I am not suggesting there should be no cover provided by the event organiser. But I would only expect it to be while at the venue - particularly in public show (damage) and while stored (fire/theft risk). A direct quote from Magnet Insurance about Exhibition Insurance - their web site claims they have over 70% of the market. We have used them (and Taylor McGill and Dennison before that) for over 30 years - no claims but very happy with the service they offer. 'All Risks' Exhibition Contents, stands, fixtures & fittings, signs. Covers all damage to official exhibitors' property. Cover is effective from the start of journey to exhibition and to the end of the journey home. Limit of any one article is 5% of full value of exhibition sum insured or ??1,000 whichever is greater (this can be varied by agreement with Magnet Insurance, subject to prior notification). Covers exhibition officials' personal effects against Fire and Theft up to ??100 for anyone official. and a quote about Clubroom Insurance 'All Risks' Clubroom Contents , including members' and visitors property. Cover is effective on Club premises and from start of journey to Clubroom and to the end of the return journey. The limit for any one article is 5% of full value of contents insured or ??1,000 whichever is the greater. (This can be varied by agreement with Magnet Insurance, subject to prior notification). Quotes taken from http://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/ Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Simply because the Mona Lisa has a clearly defined value - the price it was last sold at or the return achievable on renting it out to other galleries. A layout's value, by comparison is its market value which often is a lot less than the sentimental value we would like to place on it. You might even say a layout as a work of art is priceless. But to an insurance company and anyone who doesn't think so highly of it - it is only the s/h value of its recoverable parts. The Mona Lisa has been in the Louvre for about 200 years. And art galleries don't rent out their pictures . They may loan them for a short exhibition, but they don't charge . And someone insures them in transit. Don't think its the owning gallery.... Given that you've no involvement with the insurance industry , you're being a bit dogmatic in claiming that you know what insurance companies think a layout's value is. I know of no basis for the assertion that they would only consider it at the salvage value of recoverable bits. Insurance on the basis of replacement material cost seems widely accepted in practice by those brokers dealing with model railway exhibition . As Mike says Magnet (formerly Taylor McGill) is the main broker , and there is no suggestion in any of their paperwork they would not accept replacement materials value Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.