Great West Road - transfers & I’m not talking football!

[southern42]

Your '10'/'39' is probably far more likely to be 1O39 which was the headcode of a train the engine had worked recently and which hadn't been rubbed off afterwards.  Chalked headcodes were not uncommon on Western engines in later years.

 

...and guess what? As if in answer to SM's comment, here's 7919 Runter Hall with headcode 3Y39 in chalk: http://www.norfolkrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/8/2/5/1/8251404/9448919_orig.jpg.  All I've got to do now is wait and see if any of GWRd locos carried a chalk headcode but for now, here's another question!  In the photo link below, what does the notice standing in front of 47500 say and was it there throughout 2011 (photo dated 5 February 2012)?

 

http://sulzerpower.com/archive/147500southall050212_5Z891207eus2southall_robt.jpg

 

By blowing up the image I can make out the following:

 

SPRING POINTS

NOT TO BE OPERATED

?

?

IN CHARGE OF DEPOT

 

 

Any other information on the sign or the spring points would be much appreciated, too.

Edited October 16, 2015 by southern42

[The Stationmaster]

Polly I have a suspicion that notice is modern (i.e. probably post BR).

[southern42]

Polly I have a suspicion that notice is modern (i.e. probably post BR).

 

Yes, it looks a bit worn!  So I could confidently add it to GWRd for 2011.  Thanks Mike.

Does anyone know/guess what it says?

Is it still there, I wonder?  I'll have to look as some of the pics again, although not many from that angle of view.

Edited October 16, 2015 by southern42

[southern42]

Polly I have a suspicion that notice is modern (i.e. probably post BR).

 

 

Yes, it looks a bit worn!  So I could confidently add it to GWRd for 2011.  Thanks Mike.

Does anyone know/guess what it says?

Is it still there, I wonder?  I'll have to look as some of the pics again, although not many from that angle of view.

 

If the notice pre-dates the Railway Centre, what does this mean in relation to the spring points?  Does the order still apply at the time of the photo (2012), for instance? It was still there when SRM No. 93 ran down the Brentford branch in 2014.  In one photo, the notice lies beyond the (branch) speed restriction sign.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/index38.shtml

 

In another photo, the back of the sign is visible (below the tower apartments, formerly the water tower), 34067 Tangmere in the foreground.

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2014/scotsman-and-railmotor-update/

Edited October 18, 2015 by southern42

[The Stationmaster]

If the notice pre-dates the Railway Centre, what does this mean in relation to the spring points?  Does the order still apply at the time of the photo (2012), for instance? It was still there when SRM No. 93 ran down the Brentford branch in 2014.  In one photo, the notice lies beyond the

(branch) speed restriction sign.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/index38.shtml

 

In another photo, the back of the sign is visible (below the tower apartments, formerly the water tower), 34067 Tangmere in the foreground.

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2014/scotsman-and-railmotor-update/

After doing some delving I've found that the spring points between the Ingoing and Outgoing roads were there in the 1968 revised layout (set towards the Ingoing Road) but there are no printed Instructions relating to them.  The wording of the notice however - referring to 'person in charge of the depot' sounds later. 

[southern42]

I think that sign has been around for a while I seem to remember one back in the sixties or something similar at the point where the branch line and the AEC sidings met which might be where the speed restriction is.

 

Thanks, 81C. The speed restriction sign on the east side of the footbridge (2009) had been removed from its post by 2012.

 

 

After doing some delving I've found that the spring points between the Ingoing and Outgoing roads were there in the 1968 revised layout (set towards the Ingoing Road) but there are no printed Instructions relating to them.  The wording of the notice however - referring to 'person in charge of the depot' sounds later. 

 

Thanks Mike. As the notice is still there, are the spring points still there? I hope that's not a silly question!

 

Track changes

Pre-1961, before the railmotor shed was demolished

https://www.facebook.com/161421647218065/photos/pb.161421647218065.-2207520000.1445186466./1215443228482563/?type=3&theater

(I'll definitely have to model the man pushing his bike.)

 

1968

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/9230548464

(Of further interest is the detailing on the footbridge, footpath and barrow boards, north-south drop in levels, and view of the diesel roads.)

 

1977

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/7984851755

(The flared trousers sure dates it!)

 

1983

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28120463@N07/5183083040

 

2012 From bridge to shed along the branch line and past the spring points notice.

 

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

 

Thanks Mike. As the notice is still there, are the spring points still there? I hope that's not a silly question!

 

 

Not a silly question at all - not that I know the answer

[southern42]

A good end to the year.  Pannier Tank 9773 of the Thames Valley Tour has a full double page spread in "Railways of Britain: Moving the Goods" hauling MGB sports cars on 13th December 1965 although Brentford Dock was closed by then so no chance of replicating it on GWRd.

 

The best was seeing this little beauty at Warley.  That's Mike in the background.

 

But for now, Christmas Greetings to all you Great West Roaders.

Tyseley Open Day, 24th October 2015

Edited December 23, 2015 by southern42

[southern42]

Happy New Year

Hope you all had a great (western) Christmas.

 

To start the year, a little bit about one of the Christmas presents I received off my Christmas wishlist.  Some clues as to what it is.

 

The bit I need for GWRd is on page 2 and occupies a few square inches of the page.

The publication is the 2010 edition so should be ideal for planning operations in 2011 for the shed and branch line.

 

But if you think that's an awful lot of book for just a small bit of info, on page 1 is the diagram of 81A Old Oak Common and that has got me reconsidering the placement of the turntable on GWRd which will be essential for 1961 operation.  The diagrams are both fascinating and revealing  as they move down the line from Paddington.  As one who grew up using the London Underground map and Ordnance Survey maps, it suits me to a t.

 

Yep!  It's Railway Track Diagrams Book 3 Western originally published by the Quail Map Co. [see post #690 by Mike (Stationmaster), 18-11-2014!]

 

Currently, I'm holding onto the idea of having a four road steam shed, dropping roads 7 and 8 of 81C but keeping both diesel roads.  It also means, by going for the 1953 shed layout, I won't be keeping the GWR coal ramp as previously intended, so I have to work out how to accommodate an alternative coaling point. 

 

The first step is to take the shed diagram and see how it will adapt for GWRd. If you don't know these track diagrams, they include info (symbols) for various states of the line which, in this case, apply to the shed (private) and the network.

 

The concise nature of the track plan for the branch line is handy because it gives me a better idea of what is going on out of sight - three sets of industrial workings, for, as well as the stone processing plant and London waste depot, there is also a metal recycling yard which I don't know anything about - yet! - apart from its name.  The diagram will prove useful when I come to finalise the branch fiddle yard.

 

So, the next job will be to tailor the shed diagram and then compare this with ideas for the track plan.

 

Thanks for all your contributions last year and thanks, again, for looking in.

Edited January 1, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Past midnight...again!

Spent the evening having a go at making a track diagram for GWRd based on the one for Southall East Sidings.

Just needs saving as a picture (jpeg) and then checking to see if it is still legible for posting.

It'll no doubt be raining tomorrow, so I should find time to finish it off and post on here tomorrow.

[georgeT]

Happy modelling new year Ray and Polly, all the very best...

[Andrew P]

Happy New Year Polly and Ray, all the best for 2016, and I'm looking forward to seeing the Track Plan Polly.

 

All the best.

[emt_911]

Happy New Year Polly and Ray. Looking forward to seeing the track plan

[southern42]

Morning all, kind sirs.  Good see you on here.

 

Here's the one I prepared earlier (last night).

 

 

A few comments on the diagram:

It is roughly to scale with the original but next I'll do a similar diagram based on the shed as seen from the air.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5065372,-0.3714646,332m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

The Key is as used in the book.

 

The Southall Railway Centre (GWR Preservastion Group) roads occupy space I do not have but I hope to include a representation, somehow.  At one time, they did occupy the roads in the old margarine factory sidings opposite the relief platform (presenting an alternative location) which held GWR 2885 before it went to Tyseley.

Tyseley open day October 2015

 

2885 at Southall.  https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8246/8511625896_f36deaaf92_b.jpg

 

Operationally, the diagram differs from my current track plan (loosely based on the GWR track plan) in that the IN road (the ASH road) has a loop (the OUT road) and leads to the turntable.

 

Getting down to the nitty gritty, there's a kink in the Short Pit road on the original diagram.  Mine is straight because it was quicker to do!  The coal plant was situated around here.  I've located a few photos of the hoist but none show it completely.  Not sure whether I want/need to model it.

 

While you're chewing over that, I'll go and put kettle on!

 

[The Stationmaster]

Ooh, now that's interesting Polly because if you model the branch/Main Line/yard connections like that (and the view on Google maps) I shall be highly honoured as that will probably be the first time somebody has made a model of a prototype track layout which I planned (c.1991ish - I planned the layout to allow parallel moves from/to the branch and Main Line and with the aim of achieving higher speeds in order to reduce the time taken to keep clear of the then a planning Heathrow Express services.  Like most of my layout plans it was done on a sheet of A4 scrap aper then that was given to the civil engineers to do a scale drawing and a copy with what I wanted for the signalling went to the S&T Scheme Development engineer.)  

 

Funny old world isn't it?

[southern42]

Ooh, now that's interesting Polly because if you model the branch/Main Line/yard connections like that (and the view on Google maps) I shall be highly honoured as that will probably be the first time somebody has made a model of a prototype track layout which I planned (c.1991ish - I planned the layout to allow parallel moves from/to the branch and Main Line and with the aim of achieving higher speeds in order to reduce the time taken to keep clear of the then a planning Heathrow Express services.  Like most of my layout plans it was done on a sheet of A4 scrap aper then that was given to the civil engineers to do a scale drawing and a copy with what I wanted for the signalling went to the S&T Scheme Development engineer.)  

 

Funny old world isn't it?

 

Thanks Mike, but I feel the lucky one, and more motivated!  I won't be allowed to turn out a duff layout, will I?

 

But..Paper?  That's a bit posh, ain't it?   A bit up market to the back of an old envelope?

 

I may have to change some connections, though, because the whole thing terminates at the west end of a shortened station platform just the other side of the road bridge (if it goes to plan!) so I have to consider the length of sidings coming in from the branch end and how they relate to the railmotor road. 

 

I've been looking at Staines West with respect to the sidings - incoming freight pulls alongside platform, loco runs round and pulls out train.  The train can proceed down the branch (pannier tanks in 1961) or wagons can be shunted back into a siding to await next movement. (See second diagram.)

 

So, a draft Track Diagram of GWRd for comparison.

 

There are no passenger trains from the branch platform except in the event that Steam Railmotor No. 93 runs in 2014.  To compensate, GWRd, in this draft, has a Bay Platform for railcars and DMUs.  Well, it's got to have some passengers!

 

It might be possible to add the OUTWARD Road but that would mean moving the Railmotor Road to another part of the layout to give me the necessary depth (See diagram below) and, if possible, placing the turntable behind the shed in BR fashion.

 

Diagram turned through 90^o for easier reading.

 

 

The thing I don't know is if the crossing is prototypical for the Western area in this situation, but it is just an option at the moment.

 

Next, I'll have to see what I can do with putting in an OUTWARD / Engine Release Road, if someone can kindly explain the Engine Release Road bit.  Thanks.

[southern42]

It is not often that I get a chance to have a long stint at this, but here is an attempt to add the OUTWARD Road.  You'll notice that I've incorporated it into the GWR style layout.  I think I'd need at least an extra 2ft to do a BR style layout with turntable behind the shed so if this diagram isn't too far off the mark, perhaps we can tweak it over the coming months. We've got plenty of card strips to represent various Southern locos and rolling stock which I can match up to GWR equivalents and start playing about mapping things out on paper spread out on the floor as I did when I first started this thread.

 

 

The main difference with this version is that it uses a 3-way point out of the platform road so I lose the crossover to the loop unless there's enough room to put in another pair of points as at Southall.  The snag here is that the 3-way point will cross a join in the boards unless I can rejig it later.  The earlier version uses a lefthand turnout with a double slip from the loop.  All this has been tried out in AnyRail.  These diagrams are just a simplification of what I've previously churned out but are helping me to see more clearly what's going on.

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

' Morning all.  I've just been looking again at that last diagram and see the potential for storage of West Coast Railway coaches on the OUTWARD Road in 2011, though probably more than the station will hold if you want to add a steam loco (plus support coach!) on the front and diesel on the end to push it up into the station.  Oh, yes!  Got it all thought out! 

 

Please add your thoughts on the diagrams as we go along.  I'm banking on you knowing a bit more than I do so that we can get it right for either period (and even running my little bit of GWR stock!).

 

:friends: Group hug

[Andrew P]

Morning Polly, the plan's looking good, I've just had a BAD experience with  Peco three way points but although I cant see any reference to it, I guess you or Ray are making your own.

 

Good luck and its certainly good to see a Track Plan.

 

All the best and I hope we meet up somewhere in 2016.

[The Stationmaster]

A three way point in that sort of situation would be very unusual in the real world Polly.  the connection from the Railmotor Road would need to go throufgh a single slip instead of a diamond crossing in order to provide a trap but i doubt it was done that way in reality at Southall and it was probably just trapped.

[southern42]

Morning Polly, the plan's looking good, I've just had a BAD experience with  Peco three way points but although I cant see any reference to it, I guess you or Ray are making your own.

 

Good luck and its certainly good to see a Track Plan.

 

All the best and I hope we meet up somewhere in 2016.

 

Hi Andy.

Not sure yet what I'll be using other than it'll be in 00!  After determining a general plan in AnyRail using Peco Code 75, I've been trying the plan out with AnyRail's C+L Finescale track library but using the Peco Code 75 curved points.  I think the next step will be to print out some of it and run push some card stock along (The West Country card will do for Tangmere, anyway!).  Then, maybe, see how it turns out in Templot.   Being a corner layout, the curves will have to look right, especially where they incorporate turnouts.  The C+L 3-way point is pretty long and is asymmetric - I used the #8 #6 version below, the shorter, righthand, turnout on the OUTWARD road.  This also gives a better alignment than did the #6 8# version for the bay siding.

 

[southern42]

A three way point in that sort of situation would be very unusual in the real world Polly.  the connection from the Railmotor Road would need to go throufgh a single slip instead of a diamond crossing in order to provide a trap but i doubt it was done that way in reality at Southall and it was probably just trapped.

 

Thanks Mike, a single slip can be added but...

 

It wasn't done that way at Southall as the Railmotor Road didn't cross over the sidings - top diagram in Post #841 above.  I'm suggesting this (bottom diagram in the same post) as a space saving device so that I can move the RRd round the corner to give me room for the OUTWARD Road. The diagram with ORd  looks so much better than my original plan, which just has a short loop off the turntable, so I had to use it but then had to devise another way of keeping the RRd.  If anyone has a better solution so that I don't lose the length of the sidings coming off the branch line, please let me know.

 

Hope this makes sense!

 

I'll rethink the 3-way point.

[southern42]

OK, back to a former plan with the railmotor road along the shed board.

 

This version is based on an earlier plan which used a double slip on the platform exit as I believe Southall had at one time - well it looked like it might be one.  Do correct me if I'm wrong!.  

 

The diagram below uses the double slip, together with a single slip to the railmotor road.  They are replacing facing points which the lack of space won't allow or, at least, I can get what I want by reducing the space they take up. 

 

The interesting thing is that putting in the double slip, and re-connecting everything along the line, has rotated the shed roads and thus given back some room (possibly) for the railmotor road as originally planned.  I even get a bay road with it, which is a bonus, because not all my versions are so obliging!

 

 

All help still gratefully received to finalise a test plan.  Thanks for following.

Edited January 5, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Hi all.

I noticed earlier that the youtube image in the post above, (screen capture below), shows the track layout for the tricky bit into the shed yard.  I say, tricky, because on GWRd all the turnouts fall on the bend.

 

 

 

I did a screen capture of Southall from Google (satellite) map: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5061749,-0.3752251,93m/data=!3m1!1e3.

I used it to create the diagram below.  This shows the neat way the relief road and loop join up on the single track branch line.  Much simpler than the early 1960s layout.  Since GWRd is on a smaller scale than Southall, I think it suits better.

 

Link to map: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5062614,-0.373438,371m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Using the diagram, I revised the Track Diagram for GWRd.  I was able to keep the bay road (even if I don't decide to keep it) but it proved difficult to include the railmotor road without reverting to the crossing, which I don't really like.

 

So, I took another earlier idea of bringing the railmotor road off the branch in the opposite direction and treat it as another siding (with Staines West sidings in mind as mentioned above), thought the curve into the sidings could be better!.   This brings into play a full board width (2ft) and reflects the spacious trackway between platform and the arched wall of the old factory opposite. 

 

Edited January 7, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Using Google Map, I did the same again with the rest of Southall shed to create two more diagrams.

 

From the Water Tower to the Shed

 

From the Shed to the old Boiler House.

The GWR Preservation Group roads come off the OUTWARD road which is not visible here.

The BR turntable was some way behind the engine shed - just follow the roads past the boiler house!

 

One thing you will have noticed is that GWRd is considerably shorter than Southall.  I have barely captured the essence of the track plan but hope that will be enough, together with buildings, stock, etc, to say: "This is inspired by..."

 

More to follow. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by southern42