Private owner wagon marking

[D605Eagle]

Anybody know what this symbol means that appears on quite alot of PO wagons? Not come across it on anything other than open wagons sofar.

[jonhall]

They are the Commuted Charge logo's - I'm sure someone will come along and explain more fully, but in effect it was a payment system so that empty wagon journeys were paid for (I can't remember if it was up-front, or as part of the loaded journey).

 

Jon

[jwealleans]

"the double C markings of the Railway Clearing House Commuted Charge scheme. This involved the owner’s payment of 1/- per wagon per year to avoid a 1/- shunting charge and a siding rent charge of 6d per wagon per day. Similarly, the yellow star of the RCH Commuted Empty Haulage Scheme permitted a damaged wagon direct access to repair facilities without hindrance by railway company paperwork."

 

From http://http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/grcwPOcw.htm

[wagonman]

The CC marking was introduced in 1926, the star in 1933, otherwise Jonathan has nailed it!

[D605Eagle]

Thankyou guys, thats been bugging me for quite some time!

[The Stationmaster]

"the double C markings of the Railway Clearing House Commuted Charge scheme. This involved the owner’s payment of 1/- per wagon per year to avoid a 1/- shunting charge and a siding rent charge of 6d per wagon per day. Similarly, the yellow star of the RCH Commuted Empty Haulage Scheme permitted a damaged wagon direct access to repair facilities without hindrance by railway company paperwork."

 

From http://glostransport...uk/grcwPOcw.htm

 

There is alas something not quite right about that. As far as I have ever been aware (and was taught over 40 years ago, and according to the only reference I have - dated 1949) the Commuted Charge was applicable to wagons requiring repair/enroute for repair in which circumstance it meant that siding rent and shunting charges were not raised for that wagon when being moved for repair.

 

I can't really see the Railways missing out on considerable revenue, and the massive nuisance which would result, if a wagon was simply carrying a credit of 1/- per annum to avoid normal siding rent

[jwealleans]

I did Google quite a bit yesterday - the question piqued my curiosity - and I think you're right, Mike. It may be the way the website I found has phrased or paraphrased his text. The most authoritative explanation I can find just now is from an old message in the HMRS Yahoo group by Paul Bartlett of this parish:

 

"From ERO 6659/1 Goods stationclerical work second edition, Euston 1950:

 

38. SIDING RENT AND SHUNTING CHARGES ON PRIVATE OWNERS' WAGONS STOPPED FOR REPAIRS

 

When, for the purpose of repair, privately owned wagons have to be shunted into or out of the Railways' sidings or the private sidings of wagon repairers, a charge is made for the service.

 

Private owners' wagons detained for repairs on the Railways' sidings or waiting access to a wagon repairer's private siding are subject to siding rent charges after expiration of a free period of three days, exclusive of the date of advice of the vehicle being stopped.

 

Owners of private wagons can, by arrangement with the Railways, make an annual payment in lieu of charges for shunting and siding rent on their wagons stopped for repairs, and the majority of owners have adopted this arrangement , which is known as a 'commuted charge'. Wagons coming within the arrangement bear the letters "C.C" in black on a yellow ground."

 

So exemption from siding and shunting charges but only when stopped for repair, not in the course of normal traffic.

 

If anyone has anything more complete please feel free to correct me.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that Jonathan, your websearch was clearly more productive than mine; all I could find was some original source stuff in General Appendix amendments from 1949 (plus tapping 40+ year old memory from a course I was on in the late 1960s - I wonder if I've still got the original notes and references hidden away somewhere?)

 

Incidentally by 1949 the shunting charge had risen to 1s 8d, it was an awful lot more by the late 1960s

[wagonman]

The CC marking was introduced in 1926, the star in 1933, otherwise Jonathan has nailed it!

 

I think I've got it the wrong way round! This is what I've written in 'another place':

 

 

"in brief the 1926 scheme, represented by a yellow star and which cost in 1930 one shilling per wagon per annum, was to cover all shunting and siding charges likely to be incurred by the wagon owner, charges that had hitherto been levied on an individual basis at considerable cost in terms of overheads. The 1933 scheme, represented by the yellow square with two superimposed ‘C’s and for which the charge was one shilling and ninepence per wagon per annum, was to “cover all charges incurred in moving wagons from point to another for purposes of loading, repairs or other purposes beyond the usual journey regulations"

[D605Eagle]

Thanks for the updates guys. It kind of makes sence as its most often seen on coal wagons, which would have had a tough life and likely to get damaged quite often in their existance.

Cheers

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for the updates guys. It kind of makes sence as its most often seen on coal wagons, which would have had a tough life and likely to get damaged quite often in their existance.

Cheers

Jim

It was very common on oil tank cars in more modern times as well (and a ruddy nuisance when you have two long roads of a marshalling yard full of empty tank cars waiting repair and you aren't getting a penny in siding rent for them having that privilege - serves 'em right when they were 'collided with' by a train setting back into the yard a bit fast).

[wagonman]

It was very common on oil tank cars in more modern times as well (and a ruddy nuisance when you have two long roads of a marshalling yard full of empty tank cars waiting repair and you aren't getting a penny in siding rent for them having that privilege - serves 'em right when they were 'collided with' by a train setting back into the yard a bit fast).

 

Sounds like the voice of (bitter) experience...

[The Stationmaster]

Sounds like the voice of (bitter) experience...

Alas yes - we had the sidings in the yard full of tank cars, we had to shunt them in and out of the old loco shed (Radyr) and take them on the Cathays trip - all for no payment and some of them stood in the yard for over a year waiting for PD or the owner to decide if they were going to repair it. Meanwhile we had 2 reception lines. on the upside blocked with wagons to shunt because the RTCs were taking up yard space.

[wagonman]

I think I've got it the wrong way round! This is what I've written in 'another place':

 

 

"in brief the 1926 scheme, represented by a yellow star and which cost in 1930 one shilling per wagon per annum, was to cover all shunting and siding charges likely to be incurred by the wagon owner, charges that had hitherto been levied on an individual basis at considerable cost in terms of overheads. The 1933 scheme, represented by the yellow square with two superimposed ‘C’s and for which the charge was one shilling and ninepence per wagon per annum, was to “cover all charges incurred in moving wagons from point to another for purposes of loading, repairs or other purposes beyond the usual journey regulations"

 

Damn it ! I had it right the first time: CC was introduced in 1926, the star in 1933. There, finally...

[ColHut]

As this matter comes up from time to time, a comprehensive and contemporary account is to be found in

Modern Railway Practice Facilities and Carges by L.A. Carey 1937. See especially chapter XXI on Private owner wagons.

 

A copy ( with minor defects) is available here:

 

http://dspace.gipe.ac.in/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10973/22341/GIPE-191192.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

 

it also covers detention, demurrage, railway rates etc etc.

 

Worth downloading

 

regards

[hmrspaul]

It was very common on oil tank cars in more modern times as well (and a ruddy nuisance when you have two long roads of a marshalling yard full of empty tank cars waiting repair and you aren't getting a penny in siding rent for them having that privilege - serves 'em right when they were 'collided with' by a train setting back into the yard a bit fast).

These schemes have come up for discussion elsewhere.

 

Clearly you have reasonably recent experience, Do you know when these schemes ended? Was it with the John Major Privatisation?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

To partially answer my own question. Looking at some of my own photos I can find wagons built c1986 that have the CC mark when new, such as Bardon Hill aggregate hoppers, whereas those build c1988 do not.

One of the clearer ones in the Side tipping wagon for Booth and Thompson PTA 28000 - 11 http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/sidetippta with small batches built 1985 and 1988.

So pre the Major privatisation.

 

It would be interesting to know why and when this change happened more accurately.

[The Stationmaster]

These schemes have come up for discussion elsewhere.

 

Clearly you have reasonably recent experience, Do you know when these schemes ended? Was it with the John Major Privatisation?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

To partially answer my own question. Looking at some of my own photos I can find wagons built c1986 that have the CC mark when new, such as Bardon Hill aggregate hoppers, whereas those build c1988 do not.

One of the clearer ones in the Side tipping wagon for Booth and Thompson PTA 28000 - 11 http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/sidetippta with small batches built 1985 and 1988.

So pre the Major privatisation.

 

It would be interesting to know why and when this change happened more accurately.

 

Not one I can immediately answer I'm sorry Paul as 'all' I was doing freight wise in the 1980s was concerned with train planning and performance and trying to sort out marshalling yard working where it hadn't been planned as well as it should have been when other yards were closed (Gloucester is engraved on my heart from the time of the aftermath of Severn Tunnel Jcn closure).