Kirkcaldy area

[Graham R]

At the suggestion of Keefer:

maybe worth starting a new topic about kirkcaldy station ... to have relevant info in one place

this topic aims to attract photos and other prototype information for railways around Kirkcaldy, Fife.

 

Related topics on RMWeb include the Harbour Branch and a mystery object at the end of the Up platform dock.

 

Keefer asked for more details of Kirkcaldy signalling: here is a sketch of the arrangements in 1967, redrawn from a BR(Sc) proposal to close Harbour Branch Junction. Won't win any prizes for draughtsmanship but hopefully clear enough to satisfy curiosity.

 

 

The closure proposal envisaged elimination of the Junction box, signals and crossover, conversion of the Down Goods Loop into a dead-end siding from Kirkcaldy station, and installation of a 4-lever ground frame for the Harbour Branch electrically released by Kirkcaldy Station lever 10 to control the branch junction and entry signal/exit disc for the branch. Sinclairtown and Kirkcaldy Station distant signals were moved outwards and the Kirkcaldy outer distant (12) removed.

 

The branch was to be accessed by a long back shunt from Kirkcaldy along the Up main, controlled by a new disc 11 provided under 33/32. 11 was only released when the Kirkcaldy signalman set his Sinclairtown block to Train On Line directly from Normal; if it had been at Line Clear (meaning he'd accepted a train from Sinclairtown) the locking prevented 11 clearing. Once the Harbour train set off, 11 was backlocked until the train reached a track circuit between signal 14 and the Dunnikier Road bridge at the Harbour Branch junction, where spring points made sure that any train failing to stop would be diverted to the Harbour rather than continuing back along the Up main. (With the block at TOL, Sinclairtown couldn't clear its Up section signal, so the Harbour train was protected from Up traffic).

 

Sorry to witter on about the technicalities, but I'm always amazed at how methodical and careful - and how ingenious - the safety arrangements were in the days before fully track-circuited, multiple-aspect-signalled railways. Labour-intensive maybe, but safe.

 

And in passing, what about the exit from the Up yard - three trap points worked from one lever!

 

Now how about some nice photos of Kirkcaldy present or past from all you Fifers out there? Anyone modelling Kirkcaldy?

 

cheers

Graham

 

Edit on 27 September: thanks to Robert Dey for pointing out an NBRSG article with Harbour Branch Junction's lever numbers and pre-1963 layout, which I've added to the sketch. (Nothing on the previous version has been removed). There is still some uncertainty about the Up distant - I think probably 7 - and the Down inner distant under Kirkcaldy Station's 26 - probably this worked off the same lever, 17, as the outer distant. I find it strange that there seems to have been no Up line to Branch backshunt signal beyond Dunnikier Raod bridge, but this seems to be the case - the 1967 plan implies the miniature arm signal worked from the ground frame is new.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Graham R

[keefer]

that is fantastic graham, thank you so much for going to the effort of posting it!

 

it's linked to in the harbour branch thread , but the 1980 resignalled diagram is here at s-r-s.org.uk

 

incedentally, i was meaning to start this thread myself, but as is the way have not had the time to do so, so thanks again graham for kicking it off.

 

there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of info/pics out there of KDY - i've seen more on here than there was available on the interweb generally, mostly thanks to lochty no more's posts (particulary with pete westwood's pics)

i'll be adding any pics/links i have when i get the chance, so bear with me.

 

as to anyone modelling kirkcaldy, i've a feeling there was someone planning it on the old RMWeb - the north end of the station and yard were known about, but there were questions about the south end - so much more info is available now than there was even a couple of years ago.

 

anyway, to be going on with, here's a pic i found by accident, a nice shot of the up side goods sheds:

B1 61243 at kirkcaldy, 31st. july 1960 on Flickr by Gerald T. Robinson 474

in the gap between the sheds, a line used to run through (across bennochy road) to the linoleum works beyond - i think all works in this area became part of barry, ostlere & shepherd.

[Graham R]

... a line used to run through (across bennochy road) to the linoleum works beyond ...

 

That reminded me of an instruction in the 1937 sectional appendix - presumably it's the siding you're talking about?

 

You kind of wonder how much traffic there really was on the Bennochy Road between 11pm and 5am in 1937, that they needed to get the polis out to make the shunt. But maybe the mills worked shifts?

 

Interesting that there seems to have been a catch point next the road crossing to stop wagons rolling onto it.

Graham

[asarnot]

The siding in question across Bennochy Road lead to Hogarth's flour mill, and while I never saw a shunt across the road, I can recall frequently seeing strings of vans in the mill, and the occasional 20T grain van.

Interesting that Gerald Robinson's photo shows Hornby's "Sir Harold Mitchell", so all you modellers have no excuse now for ducking a Kirkcaldy themed layout.

Have looked out my old photos, but frankly there's not many and they are pretty poor. Most of my memories are in my head, although I have difficulty now in recalling what I did last week - see related posts on 'The Last Gresleys' and 'Kirkcaldy harbour branch'. I guess Pete Westwater might be the best source for photos of the area, if you can persuade him to post.

Thanks very much Graham for starting this topic, and hope you get some lively discussion.

[Lochty no more]

Kirkcaldy Goods yard in NBR days

anybody know the name of the signal cabin ( the NBR had cabins not boxes )

[Lochty no more]

At the suggestion of Keefer:

 

this topic aims to attract photos and other prototype information for railways around Kirkcaldy, Fife.

 

Related topics on RMWeb include the Harbour Branch and a mystery object at the end of the Up platform dock.

 

Keefer asked for more details of Kirkcaldy signalling: here is a sketch of the arrangements in 1967, redrawn from a BR(Sc) proposal to close Harbour Branch Junction. Won't win any prizes for draughtsmanship but hopefully clear enough to satisfy curiosity.

 

 

 

The closure proposal envisaged elimination of the Junction box, signals and crossover, conversion of the Down Goods Loop into a dead-end siding from Kirkcaldy station, and installation of a 4-lever ground frame for the Harbour Branch electrically released by Kirkcaldy Station lever 10 to control the branch junction and entry signal/exit disc for the branch. Sinclairtown and Kirkcaldy Station distant signals were moved outwards and the Kirkcaldy outer distant (12) removed.

 

The branch was to be accessed by a long back shunt from Kirkcaldy along the Up main, controlled by a new disc 11 provided under 33/32. 11 was only released when the Kirkcaldy signalman set his Sinclairtown block to Train On Line directly from Normal; if it had been at Line Clear (meaning he'd accepted a train from Sinclairtown) the locking prevented 11 clearing. Once the Harbour train set off, 11 was backlocked until the train reached a track circuit between signal 14 and the Dunnikier Road bridge at the Harbour Branch junction, where spring points made sure that any train failing to stop would be diverted to the Harbour rather than continuing back along the Up main. (With the block at TOL, Sinclairtown couldn't clear its Up section signal, so the Harbour train was protected from Up traffic).

 

Sorry to witter on about the technicalities, but I'm always amazed at how methodical and careful - and how ingenious - the safety arrangements were in the days before fully track-circuited, multiple-aspect-signalled railways. Labour-intensive maybe, but safe.

 

And in passing, what about the exit from the Up yard - three trap points worked from one lever!

 

Now how about some nice photos of Kirkcaldy present or past from all you Fifers out there? Anyone modelling Kirkcaldy?

 

cheers

Graham

Graham

The doll on signal No14 in your diagram has been preserved at the KFRPS in Leven

it has been bolted to the platform end for our open day, but will be re-fitted with NBR signal parts and used as a bracket signal eventually

[beast66606]

anybody know the name of the signal cabin ( the NBR had cabins not boxes )

 

Have you got the register of Scottish boxes ? - it might be in there, even though it's a cabin

[Graham R]

Kirkcaldy Goods yard in NBR days

anybody know the name of the signal cabin ( the NBR had cabins not boxes )

 

Nice photo! I think that's the station box cabin? It looks like the Down starter was originally on the station side of the cabin. This photo shows it in May 1979...

 

 

Seems like the triple disc for Up main backshunts was either originally installed as, or replaced by, a single disk with a stencil route indicator. From a previous conversation with you, I now know the finial on the straining post for the Down starter is a Stevens large cruciform pattern! I seem to remember they were less common than the open-ball pattern ... there were some at Dalmeny Junction I think, and maybe North Queensferry.

 

cheers

Graham

[Graham R]

I can only dredge up one more photo of Kirkcaldy from my cardboard box archive, and it's pretty mundane. However here it is: 20111 passing Sinclairtown with an Up freight which terminated shortly afterwards at Kirkcaldy yard, with the loco then departing north again. The open wagons were loaded with something like sand or gravel, and there are grain wagons further back. The loco is carrying a class 4 headcode but it doesn't look much like an express working! The other end of the loco had class 8 discs (you can see it here). Mid-afternoon, Friday 11 May 1979.

 

 

I don't have a working timetable or trip notice for 1979, but the 1975 notice has a trip which fits the evidence - B.71, based out of Thornton yard, worked by a class 24 in 1975.

 

Starting at 6am, it ran to Dysart to work empties in and loads out from nearby Frances colliery; then back to Thornton to change crew, before setting off down the Leven branch to Kirkland Yard, serving Cameron Bridge on the return journey, continuing back past Thornton South to Kirkcaldy where it left its load at 3.04pm, before proceeding with a brake van to work at Frances again before returning light engine to Thornton at 7.48pm; another crew change, then "work to instructions" at the yard until 4.25 the following morning. So my guess is these open wagons have come from Kirkland, and the grain wagons are from the distillery sidings at Cameron Bridge and will be tripped from Kirkcaldy yard down to the harbour. Anyone any idea about the likely traffic in the opens? Sand from Methil docks? Why would this terminate at Kirkcaldy? - the yard in the linked photo seems to be full of it.

 

cheers

Graham

 

Edit - Lochty's post of 62708 further down this topic has made me realise this shot is not really at Sinclairtown, although the long siding in the foreground joined the main line there and served various mills and works on the north side. The viewpoint is on the other side of the line from the distant trees in the 62708 shot, on Den Road.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Graham R

[Lochty no more]

I can only dredge up one more photo of Kirkcaldy from my cardboard box archive, and it's pretty mundane. However here it is: 20111 passing Sinclairtown with an Up freight which terminated shortly afterwards at Kirkcaldy yard, with the loco then departing north again. The open wagons were loaded with something like sand or gravel, and there are grain wagons further back. The loco is carrying a class 4 headcode but it doesn't look much like an express working! The other end of the loco had class 8 discs (you can see it here). Mid-afternoon, Friday 11 May 1979.

 

 

I don't have a working timetable or trip notice for 1979, but the 1975 notice has a trip which fits the evidence - B.71, based out of Thornton yard, worked by a class 24 in 1975.

 

Starting at 6am, it ran to Dysart to work empties in and loads out from nearby Frances colliery; then back to Thornton to change crew, before setting off down the Leven branch to Kirkland Yard, serving Cameron Bridge on the return journey, continuing back past Thornton South to Kirkcaldy where it left its load at 3.04pm, before proceeding with a brake van to work at Frances again before returning light engine to Thornton at 7.48pm; another crew change, then "work to instructions" at the yard until 4.25 the following morning. So my guess is these open wagons have come from Kirkland, and the grain wagons are from the distillery sidings at Cameron Bridge and will be tripped from Kirkcaldy yard down to the harbour. Anyone any idea about the likely traffic in the opens? Sand from Methil docks? Why would this terminate at Kirkcaldy? - the yard in the linked photo seems to be full of it.

 

cheers

Graham

Graham

I recall a fair number of open wagons used to lie in sidings near Methil goods station ( the old Methil station ) I assumed the traffic was china clay for the paper mills at Markinch, 5 plank open wagons with tarpaulin bars fitted, trains of full wagons were normally sheeted with perhaps 2 roads at Kirkland yard occupied with 5 plank opens every other road full of 16t mineral wagons.

an earlier photo of Kirkland yard courtesy of Pete Westwater showing 4 roads with 5 plank open wagons

and just to get back on topic

the top of the Kirkcaldy harbour branch ( courtesy Pete Westwater )

[Graham R]

Two great photos, thanks Lochty! It must have been something to hear a WD taking a rake up the branch from Kirkland to Thornton...

[Lochty no more]

Two great photos, thanks Lochty! It must have been something to hear a WD taking a rake up the branch from Kirkland to Thornton...

Graham

Alas I am too young to remember, In my day it was a class 40 or a pair of class 20`s, just occasionally a class 37. The only working steam engines I saw as a kid was on the Wemyss Private Railway

just to wander off topic again, Pete Westwater sent me this photo of Cameronbridge station ( Windygates ) the line in the foreground was a connection to the WPR system, the distillery pug (Ruston & Hornsby 88 - preserved at SRPS Bo`ness ) can be seen in the background behind some grain wagons, as can the signal box ( Built by the NBR in 1910 - same time as "Methil East").

[asarnot]

It has often surprised me somewhat that a rail centre the size and importance of Kirkcaldy was so poorly served by railway photographers. Not even WJVA paid much attention to the town, but I must plead guilty to the same shortcoming. Here, as promised are a couple of my efforts.

A2 60530 Sayajirao passes Den Road with an express 'perishables', which will pick up half a dozen wagons of meat carcasses for London markets at Kirkcaldy up goods sidings. The long up siding referred to in a previous post can clearly be seen, as can the various linoleum factories of Michael Nairn (Nairnzez to the locals) on either side of the line. The present Muir's scrapyard is roughly behind me in this shot.

No 9 sets off from the old E&N up goods shed to head the official Sc Region return to steam, 4 may '72. The grey timber building was the up transit shed, much used by linoleum traffic, before becoming the NCL depot

4498 heads the 'Tyne-Dee' special past the site of Invertiel Junction in June '74. The gate in the foreground is across the former trackbed of the Kirkcaldy District railway, Invertiel, Auchtertool, to Cowdenbeath. seafield colliery is in the background.

[Lochty no more]

Kirkcaldy`s 5 signal boxes were "Randolf" (known as the randy box,- controlling the entrance to the randolph pit )"Dysart", "Sinclairtown", "Kirkcaldy Harbour Branch Junction" ( 21 levers ),"Kircaldy" ( 44 levers ) "Inverteil Junction" closed about 1963 and was replaced by "Seafield" which must have opened about then. Unless anybody knows different.

[Graham R]

Three more really nice shots! and I remember seeing No 9 later that day crossing the Tay Bridge, and 4498 on the Tyne Dee near Arbroath. I didn't know No 9 was based at Kirkcaldy before Markinch.

 

Staying on topic, the 60009 shot nicely shows the triple stacked discs 33/32/11 for Up back shunts. I figure that means the Harbour Branch Junction resignalling was implemented as planned in 1967, and the stacked discs were replaced by a single with stencil indicator some time between 1972 and 1979. Here's the whole frame of the signalbox shot I posted earlier with a bit more of the Down yard visible.

 

 

Does anyone remember when the station buildings were modernised?

[keefer]

fantastic pics and info everyone!

 

some links to RCAHMS canmore archive: http://canmore.rcahm...yword=kirkcaldy (general kirkcaldy search of online items only)

 

aerial view of station and surrounding area (bennochy road/carlyle road factories given as national linoleum or floorcloth works):

http://canmore.rcahm...ages/l/1256789/

 

area between bennochy bridge and harbour branch

http://canmore.rcahm...ages/l/1256790/

 

sinclairtown goods yards

http://canmore.rcahm...ages/l/1257649/

 

coal merchant in kirkcaldy down yard

http://canmore.rcahm...mages/l/595609/

 

link to barry's works, including station pics

http://canmore.rcahm...linoleum works/

 

 

re: the invertiel junction, the formation of the line to auchtertool is still very visible on the quarry road out of kirkcaldy as is the divergence from that line of the branch which came back towards the coast, under the main road and leading to the area of the large (partially collapsed) sea wall at seafield. might have been a line to the bleach works, i'd have to check some old maps

Edited September 24, 2012 by keefer

[Lochty no more]

fantastic pics and info everyone!

 

some links to RCAHMS canmore archive: http://canmore.rcahm...yword=kirkcaldy (general kirkcaldy search of online items only)

 

aerial view of station and surrounding area (bennochy road/carlyle road factories given as national linoleum or floorcloth works):

http://canmore.rcahm...ages/l/1256789/

 

area between bennochy bridge and harbour branch

http://canmore.rcahm...ages/l/1256790/

 

sinclairtown goods yards

http://canmore.rcahm...ages/l/1257649/

 

coal merchant in kirkcaldy down yard

http://canmore.rcahm...mages/l/595609/

 

link to barry's works, including station pics

http://canmore.rcahm...linoleum works/

 

 

re: the invertiel junction, the formation of the line to auchtertool is still very visible on the quarry road out of kirkcaldy as is the divergence from that line of the branch which came back towards the coast, under the main road and leading to the area of the large (partially collapsed) sea wall at seafield. might have been a line to the bleach works, i'd have to check some old maps

Peter Westwater sent me this photo some time ago ( not the best quality I`m afraid )

I was looking for an example of an NBR fixed distant signal, this example is from the Invertiel line it was situated at the top of an cutting for sighting purposes, still had it`s NBR paint scheme (distant arms were painted red ) - I still think the Inverteil line would have been a perfect setting for a preserved railway, Kirkcaldy to Auchtertool.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Lochty no more

[jbg06003]

Some from me - first, decidedly ropey 126 scans

 

 

 

 

 

The goods shed shortly before demolition.

 

 

 

Bruce

[keefer]

brilliant pics bruce, those all blue 101s with the bouncy seats and view ahead were a staple when my mum took us to edinburgh for the day!

 

when were the phots taken? didn't realise the bay line had lasted so long.

 

edit - presumably mid-late 70s judging by the dominos on the 47?

Edited September 24, 2012 by keefer

[Graham R]

coal merchant in kirkcaldy down yard

http://canmore.rcahm...mages/l/595609/

 

Very tidy looking yard! Interesting that there's a 5-plank wagon as well as the 16T minerals - any suggestions why?

 

re: the invertiel junction, the formation of the line to auchtertool is still very visible on the quarry road out of kirkcaldy as is the divergence from that line of the branch which came back towards the coast, under the main road and leading to the area of the large (partially collapsed) sea wall at seafield. might have been a line to the bleach works, i'd have to check some old maps

Seafield Siding... I would be interested to hear what you come up with. The 25" maps I've seen on the NLS site show that it had already been lifted at the turn of the 20th century... but that it was put back in the 1940s to serve a drift mine on the coast. I had a vague idea that the siding was somehow part of the NB's ambitions for a West Fife coal port before they invested in Methil?

 

Some from me...

 

That's the corporate blue era I remember! I one got one of these 101s back from Edinburgh to Dundee late on a cold night; I seemed to feel sleepier than usual and soon dozed off, only to be urgently shaken awake - I think at Kirkcaldy - by the guard. The air inside was thick with exhaust fumes - somehow they'd come through the floor and filled the coach ...

[jbg06003]

Keefer,

 

The 126's are from March 1978 and the shot of the GS from June 1983.

 

I've a few more from the '80's on my website but like others I sorely neglected the area.

 

Bruce

[keefer]

the coal merchant was the one which i presume had the house and garage on bennochy road

 

modern google streetview here: http://goo.gl/maps/IjJ9m

 

the house is obviously still there, although i wonder if it was just used as offices etc in later days of the merchant - i remember it having stickers in the windows for 'coalite' and such!

the modern bungalow on the left is on the site of the 'garage' - had black, foldy wooden doors on the front with a name painted above

 

to the right of the old house was a road access to the down goods yard, now a pathway to the car parks which cover the whole area.

 

incidentally, is bennochy bridge unusual at all? in that one side is straight but the other is 'kinked'? : http://goo.gl/maps/aU03i

note over the junction, 'carlyle house' offices where the factories once stood. further down (where the siding crossed the road) for many years was a car dealership showroom (morrison's BMW was the last), now the site of a care home, 'methven house'

 

edit - while i was on google, how's this for a rather forlorn sight? http://goo.gl/maps/dozuk

latterly a care home, various plans involving retaining some/none of the old building have come to naught and meantime it rots away....

Edited September 24, 2012 by keefer

[keefer]

Seafield Siding... I would be interested to hear what you come up with. The 25" maps I've seen on the NLS site show that it had already been lifted at the turn of the 20th century... but that it was put back in the 1940s to serve a drift mine on the coast. I had a vague idea that the siding was somehow part of the NB's ambitions for a West Fife coal port before they invested in Methil?

 

http://maps.nls.uk/os/25inch-2nd-and-later/view/?jp2=82881903#jp2=82881903&zoom=4&lat=6145&lon=10296&layers=BT

 

i'd not realised it existed decades before only to be lifted, then put back, then lifted again

it would make sense i suppose that even if not viable normally, it was to do with 'wartime' concerns. i don't know how 'censored' maps would have been at this time, but all that shows are old coal drifts, an old quarry and the long disused tyrie bleach works. yet the track has been laid all the way to the bleach works with a small kick-back to the drifts.

[Edwin_m]

Definitely no bay by September 1978 when I moved there for three years, sorry no photos though. I also have many memories of sitting behind the driver on those 101s.

 

Found something somewhere on the web about the Invertiel-Seafield link being part of a harbour project, presumably to take out the coal from the Cowdenbeath area, but the harbour was never completed due to storm damage.

[keefer]

presumably the sea wall was the first part of this project, but at some point after completion, the end of the wall collapsed and has been since! (marked on OS maps)