Edwin_m Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 the other thing at the time of the photo would be the relative lack of personal motor transport for most folk. and of course, the road network would be nowhere near as 'quick' as today - (no motorways, dual carriageways etc.) so i don't suppose even any 'express' bus or coach services would be as quick as the train? No Forth or Tay road bridges either, so the railway ought to have had a good edge over the road on this journey despite the speed restrictions through places like Kinghorn. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asarnot Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I came across this photo (Railway Magazine January 1941) the other day, when looking for something else... to the left in the distance can be seen the loco servicing facility at Rosebery Terrace mentioned by both Ian and Andy earlier on in the thread. The roof of Harbour Branch Junction box is behind the fourth carriage of the train (which is travelling north). Although the photo appeared during the war years, it may well date from before the war, given the cleanliness of the loco. I believe the P2s were repainted in black in 1941 and 2005 doesn't look ready for a repaint! Edit: interesting that the service is shown as being Edinburgh-Dundee ... I would have thought the P2s would have been kept for the heaviest, ie Aberdeen, workings. Maybe it was a fill-in turn? Could the last two coaches be LNER 'Tourist' stock in green and cream, or is it just a trick of the contrast in the photo? Is it any clearer in the original, Graham? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 Could the last two coaches be LNER 'Tourist' stock in green and cream, or is it just a trick of the contrast in the photo? Is it any clearer in the original, Graham? That's interesting, I hadn't noticed the difference to be honest, nor thought about the possible reason. Unfortunately the original is not very high definition - the screen is fairly coarse and attempts to scan with much more resolution are counter-productive. This is the best I can do.... but it does indeed look like the last two coaches are different. The fifth vehicle looks like a brake, as is the first... so could this be a case of a five-coach set strengthened by two tourist-stock vehicles? I dug round my cardboard boxes archive a bit more, and found that the same photo appeared in "Locomotives Illustrated" 20 ... although the screen is finer, the print is less contrasty and in fact the 1941 version is easier to "read". But the LI print gives a date! - 26 August 1936 - and reveals the photographer was ER Wethersett. Another of his photos appears in the same magazine, of the 9am Aberdeen-Edinburgh train passing Kirkcaldy station, 6 vehicles... the photo shows the triple-trapped tandem points at the entry to the Up yard: I came across a further Wethersett image of 2005 on a Down Edinburgh-Arbroath train near Inverkeithing, in the Jan 1937 Railway Magazine... here's a detail from it ... and it looks like you're right, Andy - another two-tone vehicle added on at the rear! I believe the NRM holds Wethersett's collection, so in theory at least, all these images may be available from them. Having established who the photographer is I'm not quite clear about copyright with respect to scanning and posting them here. I thought I was OK with the 1941 RM shot since the photographer was uncredited and the publication date more than 70 years ago... I am not sure whether the NRM holds copyright for the Wethersett collection, who passed away in 1987; the negatives passed through several hands before the NRM bought them. At any rate I have sought to stay within the "fair dealing" provisions by posting details only, for research study. I'm sure you would rather have seen the sharp end of the P2s though ! cheers Graham 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted November 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2012 No Forth or Tay road bridges either D'oh! so busy thinking about the original A92 etc., completely forgot about this! of course, ferries or the long-way-round until the 60s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Hi All, A couple of wonderful photos there, thanks Graham. Andy I would say that the last two coaches in the Rosebery terrace photo are Tourist Stock. You can just make out the ducket on one and the window spacings on the last coach would seem to indicate that they are both Brake Open Thirds with the Brake ends outermost. Tourist Stock consisted of Artic Twins (third/third) Buffet cars and Brake thirds. Each twelve coach set was made up of two six coach units. Brake, artic, buffet, artic. These would be coupled on the buckeyes so the easiest coach to "borrow" would be the Bk 3rds. I suggest that these were added to the regular train as strengthening coaches at a busy time.(very common until stock was "rationalised" in the 70s/80s). The rest of the train is non corridor stock. The first vehicle is a Gresley 51ft1.5" 3 compartment brake third. These were built for the Southern Scottish Area of the LNER (ironically one of the few Gresley coaches I have never made a kit for)next coach is a matching 8 comp third.Coach 3 I think is an NBR, 4 is a Gresley 51ft semi corridor composite 1st/3rd and 5 is another brake 3rd. I thought at first that the second photo showed the same set with only one strengthener on a different day but the NBR coach seems to have been replaced with another semi corridor compo. I don't know why a P2 would be used on this service which from the coaching stock would seem to be a secondary one. best wishes, Ian 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 "Auld Reekie" at Dysart D5232 at Dysart at Den Road ex GNSR passenger brake van at Kirkcaldy harbour, this vehicle survives to this day - known as the SMDV (six million dollar van, purchased from BR for six quid - a pound each )it went to lochty then the KFRPS at Leven another view of the SMDV 502123 at Den Road Thomson coaches on the Rosyth dockyard train at Dysart 62064 on brakedown train at boreland NCB No3 at dubbie (Francess colliary) Gresley steel full brake at Kirkcaldy station as usual all the above photo`s are courtesy of Pete Westwater 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2012 as usual all the above photos are excellent! many thanks again to pete for sharing them and lochty for posting them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Please what is the track at Den Rd that is encased in concrete used for? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Please what is the track at Den Rd that is encased in concrete used for? I belive a shunting tractor was used by the works, the line was encased in concrete to provide a road for the shunting tractor ( we have an old shunting tractor at the KFRPS awaiting restoration a "Fordson" I belive, no idea of where it came from, must ask. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Hi, Thanks again Lochty for another grand selection of photos. You are quite right about the embedded track. Just behind where the photographer was standing the line curves over Den Road and into Nairn's Works. IIRC Den Road was cobbled and the track was inset into them and the tracks inside the works were also embedded so that they could be shunted by tractor. The BR locos left/collected wagons in " Nairn's Sidings" but did not cross the road. For most of it's length Den Road is/was separated from the Railway by a substantial brick wall but there was of course a gap for the Nairns line. This was a good place to take photographs or just watch trains. Looking back over the photographs in this thread we should have a competition to see how often we can spot Pete's famous old bike.Anyone modelling Kirkcaldy in the 60s should include this, 70s onwards it was replaced IIRC by a Sunbeam Rapier. best wishes, Ian Edited November 27, 2012 by Ian Kirk 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Williams Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Bast from the past Locthy no More - SMDV I had forgotten that nickname from Lochty! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2012 is this the area being discussed? from old-maps.co.uk i.e. the siding across den rd. into what is now muir's yard? looking on google streetview (for some reason the 'link' function isn't working, so i'll risk a screengrab interesting that the metal fence still crosses the old rail link at 90o if you go into streetview as above, then turn round to look at the entrance to the yard, there are glimpses of rails under the cracked tarmac Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asarnot Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Are there still any former NCB 'pugs' in Muir's yard? I couldn't see any at all the last time I passed by train. I know that Andrew Goodman rescued WPR 15 a couple of years ago, and has it running as 'Earl David' somewhere in the north of England - Preston?? Your map, Keefer, shows not only the crossing of Den Road, but clearly shows the harbour branch dropping away, including the connection into the old power station on Victoria Road - subject of a previous post. It also shows the pathway through the 'Priory', down which I used to cycle to Hutchies, but NOT up - the path was steeper than the branch itself! The pic of the J37 at Boreland can't be 62064, which was a K1, as probably everyone has spotted, but I can't make out the actual number, which was unusual. J37's were generally kept pretty clean, at least at Thornton and Dunfermline. Excellent photos and information as usual, chaps. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Are there still any former NCB 'pugs' in Muir's yard? I couldn't see any at all the last time I passed by train. There are still 4 pugs in there, at the Southernmost extremity of the yard. They are still visible from the train, blink and you'll miss them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Hi, Thanks again Lochty for another grand selection of photos. You are quite right about the embedded track. Just behind where the photographer was standing the line curves over Den Road and into Nairn's Works. IIRC Den Road was cobbled and the track was inset into them and the tracks inside the works were also embedded so that they could be shunted by tractor. The BR locos left/collected wagons in " Nairn's Sidings" but did not cross the road. For most of it's length Den Road is/was separated from the Railway by a substantial brick wall but there was of course a gap for the Nairns line. This was a good place to take photographs or just watch trains. Looking back over the photographs in this thread we should have a competition to see how often we can spot Pete's famous old bike.Anyone modelling Kirkcaldy in the 60s should include this, 70s onwards it was replaced IIRC by a Sunbeam Rapier. best wishes, Ian I spot Pete Westwater`s bike in 5 of the photo`s ( so far, more to come ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2012 There are still 4 pugs in there, at the Southernmost extremity of the yard. They are still visible from the train, blink and you'll miss them! i linked to this pic before http://www.flickr.com/photos/punkrocksuperstar63/3634471534/in/set-72157617014610729 taken in 2004 but didn't pay enough attention to the comments. says no.10 went to lakeside and haverthwaite railway, so looked that up and found this: http://www.bpde.co.uk/lhr/pages/about_stock_1245.php i wonder if the move from the yard made the pages of the FFP/courier at the time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2012 Have you got the register of Scottish boxes ? - it might be in there, even though it's a cabin Here's an extract from a 1961 list of the opening hours of cabins Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Another good shout, Dave. I can't recall what you said on the WR thread - but does the list include the NB Forth Bridge - Perth "Direct," - ie. the Cowdenbeath Jct - Kinross - Bridge of Earn - Hilton Jct via Glenfarg line? I'm going to have to start a separate thread for that route, I can feel it.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2012 Another good shout, Dave. I can't recall what you said on the WR thread - but does the list include the NB Forth Bridge - Perth "Direct," - ie. the Cowdenbeath Jct - Kinross - Bridge of Earn - Hilton Jct via Glenfarg line? I'm going to have to start a separate thread for that route, I can feel it.... Sure does, and if you do, I'll copy those pages for you. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Hi All, Looking at some of the new releases announced at Warley. It would seem that the " green diesel" period is going to be pretty well coved for a 4mm KIrkcaldy based layout. Most of these would do for the "transition" period as well with some of the currently available steam classes but 0-6-0 goods locos would still be needed. Awkward types like me who would like to do the 50s will have a lot more to kit/scratch build. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asarnot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 The film of the exhibition in Kirkcaldy Goods yard was shot by the late Jimmy Bryant in 1935. it featured on a TV program many years ago - along with BBC newsreel of the Blue Trains debacle - introduced by Jimmy Logan, although I think it was probably one of John Huntley's productions. Interesting to see an O4 2-8-0 featured. I think both Thornton and Dunfermline had a few for a while, long before the advent of the 'Austerities'. Incidentally, AFAIR Jimmy was an avid collector of 'O' gauge models, many of which were, of course, built by Pete Westwater. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hi, It would be interesting to know what happened to Jim Bryants collection of film. I know that some of it was used on "Railways of Scotland Vol 11" video as was some of Pete's. The film of passenger trains at Kirkcaldy station was from JB and the film of the old car ferries. My parents attended West End Congregational Church all of their life and latterly Nettie Bryant was the Organist. My late Mother who gave me the video one Christmas was interested to see that Nettie was included in the film, getting onto a train (and probably quickly off again out of shot) and driving the car onto the ferry. No idea what the BTH actually did at Thornton although one can speculate that it would have been tried out on some of the turns that at that time were still in the hands of the J37s and J38s. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 My guess is that D8208 was tried out on the traffic for which 64B later received its sizeable Clayton allocation, and later Class 20s. It does seem interesting though that Fife was late to the party when it came to Type 1s - they were already on the old GNOSR system and established at 66A by 1961. Yet it wasn't until the Claytons arrived that Fife was modernised, and in so doing became the last bastion of steam, with the 0-6-0s at Seafield for example famously coexisting with exiled Cardiff or Landore Class 37s during 1966-67, the Claytons' westward retreat already having gained momentum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Is Thornton classed as part of the Kirkcaldy area? working on the assumption that the answer is yes, here are some more photo`s from Pete Westwater`s legendary archive the scrap road at Thornton Thornton looking north three way points Dysart fine old NBR distant signal on Dubbie branch Kirkcaldy down advance starter start of Auchtertool branch Edinburgh & Northern station lamp at Dysart ( Pete always had an eye for detail) Invertiel viaduct 64616 at white gates (Dysart) more to follow 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted December 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2012 i'm repeating myself, but fantastic pics again! i automatically thought the invertiel viaduct pic was looking west, but it's actually looking east modern google streetview looking at 1943 25-inch OS map at nls, this used to be the kirkcaldy steam laundry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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