RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Seen at Blaenau Ffestiniog. Never seen this sort on NR before. Presumably to save on 'special' section rail for checking. The chairs would have to have been specially made. Has this style been seen elsewhere? The concrete sleepers would seem to be those used for bullhead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 I had to look twice at it... looks back to front Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 This looks very unusual, the outer portion of the chair / sleeper interfaces seems lower than the inner, the chair fixing holes are further apart than standard ones and the outer rail does not show signs of carrying any wheels, the rust is on the top of the outer rail whilst the inner shows all of the wear normally found on a running rail. Further the inner rail is secured by chair castings on both sides with a Panlock key on the inner jaw whilst the outer seems to clip under a lug on the inner side with a Pandrol clip on the outside. Whatever it is there are nonstandard sleepers and chairs which I have not seen before. Is this some form of strengthening as a result of the curve? Ps it must have been in place for some time as some of the chair bolt nuts need tightening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Hmm, fascinating variant on the old Swindon pattern of checkrail chair but quite logical when you think about it as it allows bullhead rail to be used as the check rail with readily replaceable 'modern' flat bottom rail for the running rail. Never seen it before but it makes sense when you realise that the wider foot of flat bottom rail would probably result in too wide a check gauge if it were also used as the checkrail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 ...the rust is on the top of the outer rail whilst the inner shows all of the wear normally found on a running rail... Is that not an illusion, though? To me it looks like the top of the (left hand) check rail has a mature rust coating, whereas the running rail shows a light coating of very fresh rust as would be seen on a polished surface after rain and when it had not been used for a couple of days. The two other pieces of running rail seen in the top corners of the photo have a similar coating. Nick ps. mind you, at first sight I thought I was seeing the return of inside-keyed track Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Standard EF30A sleepers to RE/PW/284? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 20, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 The chairs were of a special type. Half and half if you like. As you say Mike, it looked like the F/B rail would be easily replaceable using this system. The rust is due to no service on Sundays when we visited. Come to think of it I've only ever seen actual F/B rail section used as checkrail on crossing work, presumably with a narrower profile 'foot' section. I have seen a sort of heavy steel square tube used in the platform roads at Lewes. It looks a very 'modellable' feature! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 This sort of adaptation has been replaced by the use of UIC check rail sections which are specifically designed for the purpose and can be adjusted as the checking face wears away. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Your picture just crops out enough of the surroundings requiring a bit of research to ensure I am talking about the right bit of the track at Blaenau as I am there regularly but driving on the 2 foot track. The track at Blaenau station is 30 years old and was laid when the new station was built and when there was regular freight on to Traws and regular proper sized passenger trains as far as the station so it was laid to suit these. If they were doing it now they probably wouldn't bother with the check rails as the passenger service is all sprinters with the occasional loco hauled (steam and diesel) special to connect with the FR. Only the loco's of these need to go beyond the normal stopping point to run round. The flat boarded crossing to the FR platform is a recent, post freight, addition which is normally unsupervised but has special working instructions for when a loco hauled train is in town. Then it becomes a manned crossing with an FR staff member flagging the crossing. That bit of track isn't the only unique feature of the Blaenau track. The catch points at the other end are arranged so that both blades move inwards to derail a wrong move in a straight line. This is because a ordinary catch point would tend to tip a vehicle being derailed, and if it went one way it'd foul the NR line and the other way it would foul the FR line. Even so they still get close on the two occasions (so far) they have tried it, once with a class 25 and lastly with 47444 University of Nottingham. (I was firing Blanche past the 25 when they did that one). It would seem this catch point is rare/unique as they have to make spares for it when they break it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Is that not an illusion, though? To me it looks like the top of the (left hand) check rail has a mature rust coating, whereas the running rail shows a light coating of very fresh rust as would be seen on a polished surface after rain and when it had not been used for a couple of days. The two other pieces of running rail seen in the top corners of the photo have a similar coating. Nick ps. mind you, at first sight I thought I was seeing the return of inside-keyed track On reflection that is a more acceptable reason especially with the answer with the second picture that it was a non train day. I forgot to allow for the exceptional corrosion activating climate thereabouts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 That bit of track isn't the only unique feature of the Blaenau track. The catch points at the other end are arranged so that both blades move inwards to derail a wrong move in a straight line. This is because a ordinary catch point would tend to tip a vehicle being derailed, and if it went one way it'd foul the NR line and the other way it would foul the FR line. Even so they still get close on the two occasions (so far) they have tried it, once with a class 25 and lastly with 47444 University of Nottingham. (I was firing Blanche past the 25 when they did that one). It would seem this catch point is rare/unique as they have to make spares for it when they break it. I think you're describing a wide-to-gauge trap point. Not common but certainly not unheard of in the situation you describe where there is no "safe" side to throw a runaway. Having said that I can't think where I've seen another one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I think you're describing a wide-to-gauge trap point. Not common but certainly not unheard of in the situation you describe where there is no "safe" side to throw a runaway. Having said that I can't think where I've seen another one! Woking platform 3 is one location, I have got a pic somewhere, i will try and find it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Wide to gauge trap points are also to be found at those little known wayside stations of Euston and St Pancras. Wide to gauge trap near St Pancras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Wide to gauge trap points are also to be found at those little known wayside stations of Euston and St Pancras. So you'd kinda hope they stocked spares for them? Which given the months the Blaenau ones were out of use "waiting parts" suggests they don't. Odd when NR insisted a complete spare standard gauge/two foot gauge diamond was made and stored somewhere for the WHR/Cambrian flat crossing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2012 I think you're describing a wide-to-gauge trap point. Not common but certainly not unheard of in the situation you describe where there is no "safe" side to throw a runaway. Having said that I can't think where I've seen another one! Hi Edwin I have recently been sent the signalling diagram of Tempsford (Bedfordshire) by LNERGE and wide to guage points were used on the shut sidings. The up shut siding was situated between the up slow and up fast, so any runaway going over this point would land up between the running lines. Had a normal catch point been provided a runaway could have be diverted into the path of an on coming train. It was the same for the down lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2012 Seen at Blaenau Ffestiniog. Never seen this sort on NR before. Presumably to save on 'special' section rail for checking. The chairs would have to have been specially made. Has this style been seen elsewhere? The concrete sleepers would seem to be those used for bullhead. Hi Re6/6 The baseplate is a Type LG, drawing number RE/PW/ 85A. The running rail is flatbottom with a check rail of bullhead rail. When photographed side on from the unchecked side it can appear that one running rail is falt bottom and one is bullhead because the check rail is higher than the other running rail and hides it. This is also found at another little byway station, infact a GWR BLT....Paddington. I am sure it is at many locations across the country just we only notice the track has a check rail. Thanks for the photos. Edit The running rail is held in place by Pandrol Clips, it is not a Type LG but could be Pan LG baseplate, drawing number RE/PW/ 120. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 The check rail baseplates are of type CCX Pan9. If you enlarge the photos you can read the Pan9 (??) BR branding on them. The figure in the brackets that I can not quite make out will be the width value for the flangeway. The other end of the sleeper will be fitted with a standard Pan9 baseplate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 The wide to gauge trap on my layout. Built not long after the real thing was opened in 1982. The trap was fairly widespread round the country worked by motors but we were told when we installed it that it was the first to be used with a ground frame (unless somebody knows differently) Tthe swiches moving in opposite directions ia achieved by a standard compensator fitted in the 4 foot, connected to the rodding from the frame, lever 3. And the check rails. Peco concrete sleepers, respaced. Peco N flat bottom rail for running rails, and SMP bullhead for the check. Now if sombody could make those chairs ? The layout of Blaenau Ffestiniog (Central) was a must after I had been there for the construction of the original. As a voulenteer on the narrow gauge and for BR on the standard. Happy days, but I wish I had taken more pictures at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Problem uploading the second picture ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2012 The check rail baseplates are of type CCX Pan9. If you enlarge the photos you can read the Pan9 (??) BR branding on them. The figure in the brackets that I can not quite make out will be the width value for the flangeway. The other end of the sleeper will be fitted with a standard Pan9 baseplate. Cheers Trog I have found the drawing number RE/PW/285 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 21, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Many thanks all for the info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Checking my GWR P-Way notes for something else, I realised that this was included. http://www.norgrove.me.uk/GWRtracknotes/R4340a.pdf Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 21, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Excellent Keith. Many thanks. That explains it all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 22, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2012 Could be the same sort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 No those are on timber sleepers, the CCX Pan9 baseplates used at Blaenau should only be used on EF30 and EF30A concrete sleepers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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