Mk1 CCT

[admiles]

Does anyone have any information as to when the Mk1 CCTs where last used in normal revenue service (as opposed to

departmentasl use)?

 

Ideally I'd like to know if I can get away with mixing one in with GUVs and BGs on a West Country parcels/papers train in mid

to late 80's.

 

Thanks

[Vin]

Hi Admiles,

 

I've got a date of mid 1988 for the last revenue service of these carriages. They could be found on Manchester Red Bank parcels duties so the Pennines where their usual haunts. I remember seeing them in the parcels dock at Leeds during this period. The livery for these were all over blue with the express parcels red and yellow stripes plus vinyl logos.

As these were restricted to this traffic I think wanderings south would have been rare.

 

Regards

Vin

[Gwiwer]

I concur with 1988 for the Red Bank workings and for which a RtR release CCT is available in the red stripe livery. Widespread use had ceased probably 5 - 10 years before that as 4-wheelers were among the earlier casualties of the great van cull.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I have a shot of one on a Birmingham-Worcester working in 1983. Not sure if I have anything later but I would concur with rapid disappearance by the mid-1980s.

['CHARD]

I concur with 1988 for the Red Bank workings and for which a RtR release CCT is available in the red stripe livery. Widespread use had ceased probably 5 - 10 years before that as 4-wheelers were among the earlier casualties of the great van cull.

 

Well, they remained pretty much intact going into the decade. The lists show only 15 of the 822 built had fallen by the wayside in August '79 - 807 still showing as on capital stock. I'm going with mid-decade ('80s) for widespread use, until I have a proprietary stock book in front of me. I know when I was still looking out for such things on the way to school (between female distractions), they were still in Birmingham Curzon Street in '83, but conspicuously giving way to GUVs.

[Gwiwer]

They died a death on the SR at about the same time as Bricklayers Arms in 1981.

 

Edited to correct something the work PC vomited up by way of "spell checking"

[TimC]

The BR collect and delivery parcels service (run in association with National Carriers Ltd) ended in July 1981 (or was it the end of June?). If you look back at the RCTS magazine, The Railway Observer, for that period there was a huge cull of parcels vehicles in the run up to and after the end of the service. The cull focused on the pre-nationalisation designed vehicles (most of which at that time had actually been built under BR but prior to BR designs being introduced) but also included large numbers of BR vehicles coming due for overhaul/heavy maintenance and this included the CCTs. Saying that, recently overhauled examples of SR 4w Vans, LMS BGs and BR CCTs continued in general service into the mid 1980s and, as mentioned above, some into 1988 (when BR lost the Newspaper traffic - which resulted in a further cull of parcels vehicles and redeployment of the Newspaper vans onto Red Star services).

 

If you have a particular period of interest then try and get hold of one of the Platform 5 Coaching Stock spotting books for the appropriate year - they come up regularly on eBay.

[Fat Controller]

They died a death on the SR at about the same time as Bricklayers Arms in 1981.

 

Edited to correct something the work PC vomited up by way of "spell checking"

This would have been pretty much the case nationwide, as BR pulled out of the 'Collection and Delivery' parcels business in 1980/1; such parcels business as remained was either contract stuff for the likes of magazine publishers and mail-order catalogues, or a limited station to station service. The latter was largely conveyed in trains with a maximum speed in excess of the 70mph (?) of the 4-wheel vans, so many of these were withdrawn. The SR hung on to some older stuff, as there were gauge-clearance issues, most notably on the Hastings line. This went when the newspaper traffic went (1987?).

[eastwestdivide]

BR CCT stats:

804 in the 1976 RCTS book

801 in the 1978 RCTS

787 in the 1981 RCTS

376 in the 1982 RCTS

95 in the 1983/4 RCTS/Ian Allan

55 in the 1986 Ian Allan

 

 

...The SR hung on to some older stuff, as there were gauge-clearance issues, most notably on the Hastings line. This went when the newspaper traffic went (1987?).

From the 1986 Ian Allan book, the only non-BR parcels stock left was:

SR 'B' bogie brake: 35 (most from the 1952/53 batches, but some from the 1938/39 batches)

SR PMV and CCT: 5

And from the 1983-4 book,

SR 'B' bogie brake: 49

SR PMV and CCT: 22

 

 

 

... Saying that, recently overhauled examples of SR 4w Vans, LMS BGs and BR CCTs continued in general service into the mid 1980s and, as mentioned above, some into 1988 (when BR lost the Newspaper traffic - which resulted in a further cull of parcels vehicles and redeployment of the Newspaper vans onto Red Star services).

 

The last LMS series parcels stuff in the books I have was 3 LMS bogie brakes in the 1983-4 book. None in the 1986 book.

 

[edit: corrected earlier typo for PMV]

['CHARD]

Wow! So the 'big cull' of CCTs was in '81. I do recall the lines of withdrawn SR-pattern types at Vauxhall + Duddeston around that time, and the fact that GUVs and BGs suddenly seemed to be about the only stuff left in Curzon Street. Time as ever playing tricks with the memory though, because I'd have put CCTs around Birmingham in numbers outlasting the blanket Blue + Grey applied to the local Class 116 fleet. Just shows...

[Guest Phil]

The BR collect and delivery parcels service (run in association with National Carriers Ltd) ended in July 1981 (or was it the end of June?). If you look back at the RCTS magazine, The Railway Observer, for that period there was a huge cull of parcels vehicles in the run up to and after the end of the service. The cull focused on the pre-nationalisation designed vehicles (most of which at that time had actually been built under BR but prior to BR designs being introduced) but also included large numbers of BR vehicles coming due for overhaul/heavy maintenance and this included the CCTs. Saying that, recently overhauled examples of SR 4w Vans, LMS BGs and BR CCTs continued in general service into the mid 1980s and, as mentioned above, some into 1988 (when BR lost the Newspaper traffic - which resulted in a further cull of parcels vehicles and redeployment of the Newspaper vans onto Red Star services).

 

If you have a particular period of interest then try and get hold of one of the Platform 5 Coaching Stock spotting books for the appropriate year - they come up regularly on eBay.

 

 

Thats interesting Tim, thanks for the post.

 

As I've mentioned before I joined BR at Machynlleth in July 1978 as a booking clerk, and left in June 1980 to join TOPS. During my spell at Machynlleth the first job on early shift was to meet the "mail" at unload the Machynlleth area and Barmouth area parcels. The train was normally formed of a 3 car class 120 DMU towing a CCT. We threw the parcels out onto the platform, a pile for our Machynlleth area, and a pile for reloading into the Barmouth DMU. We took our parcels over to our shed for sheeting up, whilst the Barmouth parcels we loaded into on eof the three two car DMUs forming the 0655 to Barmouth and Pwllheli.

 

I am pretty sure that by 1978 the van only "worked" in the down direction, and was returned to England in the up goods. The up mail in the evening was a pair of 2 car DMUs which joined at Machynlleth, and there wouldn't be a significant amount of parcels traffic, certainly not that would not fit in the van space of a DMBS.

 

1981 may well have been the end of this working on the Cambrian then ?

[TimC]

Thats interesting Tim, thanks for the post.

 

As I've mentioned before I joined BR at Machynlleth in July 1978 as a booking clerk, and left in June 1980 to join TOPS. During my spell at Machynlleth the first job on early shift was to meet the "mail" at unload the Machynlleth area and Barmouth area parcels. The train was normally formed of a 3 car class 120 DMU towing a CCT. We threw the parcels out onto the platform, a pile for our Machynlleth area, and a pile for reloading into the Barmouth DMU. We took our parcels over to our shed for sheeting up, whilst the Barmouth parcels we loaded into on eof the three two car DMUs forming the 0655 to Barmouth and Pwllheli.

 

I am pretty sure that by 1978 the van only "worked" in the down direction, and was returned to England in the up goods. The up mail in the evening was a pair of 2 car DMUs which joined at Machynlleth, and there wouldn't be a significant amount of parcels traffic, certainly not that would not fit in the van space of a DMBS.

 

1981 may well have been the end of this working on the Cambrian then ?

 

Sorry, Phil, I'm not sure when the Cambrian DMU tail loads ended. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the summer of '81 but perhaps 'The Stationmaster' might know or maybe someone who has the appropriate WTT.

[Rivercider]

I would concur with a date of 1981 for the end of CCTs in normal use in the west country.

 

I have pictures of 4B10 15.45 Bristol - Plymouth vans from 1980 with a healthy variety of vans including 4 wheelers.

Looking in WTT section PC for the West of England for October 1982 - May 1983 I see 4B10 no longer runs,

and all the van trains in the west country are now class 3 headcode with two spades (not to convey 4 wheel vehicles).

The only class 4 trains I can see are a FO Manchester - Bristol, and a Peterborough - Bristol and Southampton - Bristol working.

 

cheers

[HSB]

They are not listed in the 1989 Ian Allan BR Hauled Coaching Stock which would back up 1988 as the latest possible withdrawal date.

[Gwiwer]

Reference to CCTs as tail loads on the Cambrian brings to mind that this operation was itself short-lived. The dmu+van "mails" replaced the overnight "Passenger and News" York - Aberystwyth train which conveyed 4-5 4-wheel former Insulfish vans painted blue and rebranded for Express Parcels. Plus a couple of seated coaches for us livestock! All behind a class 24 and usually lovely and warm with it. Being evicted at Aber in the early hours was a cold shock to a still-sleepy system! The through loco-hauled ceased IIRC in 1979 and was replaced on the Cambrian section by the dmu+van working for a few years.

[admiles]

Thanks for all the information folks.

 

Looks like I might have to "bend" the timeframe a bit to include one mid-80's, will give that some thought.

[balders]

Wow! So the 'big cull' of CCTs was in '81. I do recall the lines of withdrawn SR-pattern types at Vauxhall + Duddeston around that time, and the fact that GUVs and BGs suddenly seemed to be about the only stuff left in Curzon Street. Time as ever playing tricks with the memory though, because I'd have put CCTs around Birmingham in numbers outlasting the blanket Blue + Grey applied to the local Class 116 fleet. Just shows...

 

Concur with the above, I recall the same, they were so filthy the numbers were totally unreadable. Trawling back through records I took on my travels I recorded the last SR PMV S1865 to be extant at Reading on 26th August 1986. That was at Vic Berry's by September that year. Platform 5 records 66 BR CCT's in the 1985 book, my red scribblings show a great swathe of disposals before my finals seemed to take precedence over my railway record keeping. Rail magazine was consulted every month and seemed pretty cock on with coaching stock disposal during this period.