Hornby Star Class

[Craigw]

Coachmann,

 

I have been reading through the Finney and Mitchell 4000 gallon tender instructions and there was only one lot built with that configuration. All others had a single filler. The earlier lots had a patch over the spots where the twin fillers had been in the original design - this was later removed. If anyone has the instruction they could post which lot and quantity were built with the twin fillers.

 

regards,

 

Craig W

[RCAR6015]

Presumably Hornby had them done in China by the same team that did the bogie wheels........

 

Limited edition certificates from --- The " Design Clever " team?

Edited November 20, 2013 by RCAR6015

[robmcg]

I think it was some or all King Class with twin fillers, and they reverted to single in a haphazard manner with some of the twin-filler versions being applied to other classes pre-WW2., but that's just off the top of my head.

 

The improvement in water crane hoses on 'red' routes was probably a factor in this, the higher sides of the 4000 gallon tenders being why some hoses were initially too short to easily reach a central filler. Again I recall Miss Prism writing about it here, possibly 8 pages ago.

[Ian Hargrave]

As to the imminent Star 4061 Glastonbury Hall I have to say I feel a bit like a kid at Christmas, waiting...Part of the fun will be finding out whether it has been assembled correctly, and I hope it has blackened cylinder faces, but other aspects like spokes and handrails don't worry me so much. I'm amazed at how long the pre-release publicity photos were public without the spokes being noticed, but once noticed how hard they are to ignore.If it is a good model I might enjoy shopping for a few cheap Hawksworths, which are amazing value , except that they rarely ran in sets, so far as I know.

The only Hawksworth 'sets' as such ran in the early 50's 'Cornish Riviera'.Other than that,the only occurrence that I,personally,can recall was used on a newly introduced 'fast' return service between Chester and Cardiff in the late 50's....a set of 5 in BR all over maroon.It was diagrammed for a Hall/Modified Hall.

[robmcg]

Aha! Now I will want a re-tooled King with a front end as well-made as a properly-assembled Star...

 

The biggest thing wrong with the Hornby King, and Castle too for that matter, is the amount of daylight around the front frame area , nicely done on the Star, shame about the spokes...

 

Photos I look at sometimes show two Hawksworths at the head of a train, maybe more, I presume the plebeian classes were thus accommodated, at the front of a train from Paddington, so brake 3rd or corridor 3rd, or maybe a couple of composite equivalents for the other end of a rake, returning to London?

Edited November 20, 2013 by robmcg

[KGV]

... their next Limited Edition as they do intend to do one - for a future Swindon works anniversary  (I make the next 'big' anniversary as 2018 so they've got plenty of time!!)

 

There are several 175th anniversaries for Swindon Works coming up from 2015 ....

 

13 Sep 1840: Gooch wrote to Brunel recommending building the GWR Works at Swindon

17 Dec 1840: GWR opened from London through to Hay Lane (Wootton Bassett, 4 miles west of Swindon) 

25 Feb 1841: GWR Directors approved building Swindon Works.  Building started immediately (using stone excavated from Box Tunnel)

02 Jan 1843: Swindon Works officially opened

1846: First Locomotive built at Swindon, the 2-2-2 "Great Western"

 

The first may be deemed historically very significant as this letter was the catalyst that transformed Swindon from a tiny market town ("Swindon" meaning "Pig Hill") into the proud industrial town housing the largest railway works in the world ...

Edited November 20, 2013 by KGV

[Ozexpatriate]

There are several 175th anniversaries for Swindon Works coming up from 2015 ....

The 50th anniversary of the last locomotive built at Swindon (a class 14 built in 1965) will occur in 2015.

[jwd]

Wasn't No. 4 conspicuous by its absence in the models of the Streamlined GWR Railcar announced by Dapol a while back, and that is the one preserved at STEAM.

Both the 94xx and Dean Goods would make sought after models in new tooling.

Dean Good please

[melmerby]

Dean Good please

Or do you mean a "Good Dean"?

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

The 50th anniversary of the last locomotive built at Swindon (a class 14 built in 1965) will occur in 2015.

Alas not correct.  The D95XX were the last Swindon built locos for BR but they were not the last Swindon built locos - that dubious honour fell to a batch of 20 metre gauge 0-8-0 diesels built for Kenya Railways to a Hunslet design and outshopped in 1978/79  (I'm not entirely sure when the last was delivered but it was probably 1979).

 

As far as twin filler 4,000 gallon tenders are concerned the only question is did any last into BR days in that form - photographic evidence might be the only available evidence? 

[Miss Prism]

As far as twin filler 4,000 gallon tenders are concerned the only question is did any last into BR days in that form - photographic evidence might be the only available evidence? 

 

Yes.

 

Been having a delve in the gwr-elist archives. According to Bob Youldon, only tender lot A113 was the twin filler. (Not sure what the quantity of that lot was.) Also, tender lots A113 and A117 were initially fitted with shorter triangular body-support brackets on the frames. There is also an unconfirmed suggestion that King tenders initially had longer spring hangars. Both the support bracket length and spring hangar length were subject to later modifications/rationalistions, so neither of these features are necessarily linked with the presence (or later removal) of the twin fillers. The lack of illumination in photos of 4061's tender in BR(W) days do not reveal such detail.

 

One of the original King tenders is reported to be behind one of the preserved Halls (which one I don't know).

[Ozexpatriate]

Alas not correct.

Ah, the perils of online sources!

[coachmann]

It is probably the case that Hornby simply wanted a 4000 gallon tender for its BR variation of the 'Star' and chose the one off its 6029 'King Stephen' (R2233) with two water filers without doing the research. The one off Hornby's Castle, Hall or Grange would suffice seeing as all the images I've found show the single centre mounted water filler.
 

[gwrrob]

Sloppy research again I'm afraid.It's/I'm getting like a broken record.

[Craigw]

 

Yes.

 

Been having a delve in the gwr-elist archives. According to Bob Youldon, only tender lot A113 was the twin filler. (Not sure what the quantity of that lot was.) Also, tender lots A113 and A117 were initially fitted with shorter triangular body-support brackets on the frames. There is also an unconfirmed suggestion that King tenders initially had longer spring hangars. Both the support bracket length and spring hangar length were subject to later modifications/rationalistions, so neither of these features are necessarily linked with the presence (or later removal) of the twin fillers. The lack of illumination in photos of 4061's tender in BR(W) days do not reveal such detail.

 

One of the original King tenders is reported to be behind one of the preserved Halls (which one I don't know).

 

Miss Prism,

 

According to the Martin Finney instructions, lot A113 comprised of tenders number 2384-2403. By my count that is twenty, so plainly not all King class were even fitted with these tenders unless ten on A117 were built to the design as well.

 

Regards,

 

Craigw

[Miss Prism]

According to the Martin Finney instructions, lot A113 comprised of tenders number 2384-2403. By my count that is twenty, so plainly not all King class were even fitted with these tenders unless ten on A117 were built to the design as well.

Thanks, that confirms what I thought in message #721.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Sloppy research again I'm afraid.It's/I'm getting like a broken record.

 

For all we know it might not be Rob - although other errors on their part suggest it might be.  At present we have no conclusive evidence that the tender attached to 4061 in early BR days still had twin fillers but equally there thus far seems to be no conclusive evidence that it did still have them.  And of course thus far we jhave only seen what are basically decoration samples and for all we know the production version might well appear with a single filler tender.

 

All of this is part of the reason I have put my 4061 on hold  with my local retailer, he understands that I have misgivings about details which not only might not be correct on the production version but which also might not necessarily be simple to rectify.  A 'Star' for me is borderline date wise although it would be a handy 'date shifter' but not having one isn't the end of the world.  It's just a right nuisance having to go through all this mucking about for a £135 engine in the 21st century.

[gwrrob]

For all we know it might not be Rob - although other errors on their part suggest it might be.  At present we have no conclusive evidence that the tender attached to 4061 in early BR days still had twin fillers but equally there thus far seems to be no conclusive evidence that it did still have them.  And of course thus far we jhave only seen what are basically decoration samples and for all we know the production version might well appear with a single filler tender.

 

 

If that's the case then Hornby's research would have lead them to a number where the tender attached was conclusive and matched what they were going to use on the model.With their previous my money is the production model will be the same as the decoration sample Mike.Are you going to have another chat with SK on Saturday.

[robmcg]

Supposition on my part but maybe the dies used for the tenders for Castles Granges and Halls are not available as a result of production away from the Sanda Kan era? We don't know who owns what, or whether the older dies are in the same place as the new Star production, or what production choices are available.

 

The use of incorrect wheels from the B17 and the King class tender with incorrect twin fillers would support this possibility.

 

We can of course do tender swaps... and wheel replacements

Edited November 21, 2013 by robmcg

[6959]

 

Miss Prism,

 

According to the Martin Finney instructions, lot A113 comprised of tenders number 2384-2403. By my count that is twenty, so plainly not all King class were even fitted with these tenders unless ten on A117 were built to the design as well.

 

Regards,

 

Craigw

 

 

Russell, 'Great Western Engines - Volume 2' on page 237, shows a 4000 gallon Collett tender to Drawing number 76936 dated July 1926 which has twin square water fillers for A113 only. This tender has two sand boxes on the front platform with the brake spindles passing semi-vertically through them. It has the weaker type chassis framing. He also shows on page 238 a Drawing number 89790 dated November 1929 with single round filler on the centre line as for A113, A116, A117, A120 and A121. He also shows a high oblique photo of a 4000 gallon tender with twin fillers and a toolbox between them. This tender does not have the sand boxes with the brake spindles going through them and has the longer fire iron rack. Generally, the third batch of Castles of Lot 234 numbers 4093 to 5012 built in 1926 and 1927 had Collett 3500 gallon Collett tenders but at least some of these, including 5000, 5002 and 5003, had 4000 gallon tenders which published sources say were to A113.

 

I have noted that the twenty tenders to A113 had GWR numbers 2384 to 2403 just in case it rings a bell sometime later. A quick reply whilst I search for more information.

[Ian Hargrave]

Week commencing 18/11 roars on with deafening silence....not even the sound of a train in the distance.Come on,Margate,don't let Barwell steal all the glory.I think we are all exhausting our nerves with a combination of high expectation and fear of dashed hopes..so much so that when they do actually arrive it will be a numbing anti-climax.

[Miss Prism]

but at least some of these, including 5000, 5002 and 5003, had 4000 gallon tenders which published sources say were to A113.

 

What published sources, and do they say when?

[robmcg]

It IS very quiet... I have some weathered Eastern Region models to be going on with, an 01, a Hornby A4 even, which is as grubby as I have ever seen in photos...

 

but I did discover two red-cream Hawksworths; a 3rd and a brake 3rd, which I had bought, and then forgotten, at a little over half price from a Christchurch NZ shop after the Feb 2011 earthquake. Saves me buying any to go with 4061 WHEN IT ARRIVES.

 

As an aside, much of the stock in the above shop in the earthquake, which was MAJOR , Jan and I were living in ChCh then, you could barely stand up, ended up on the floor. Much was sold at a discount but some was probably written off and claimed as insurance total loss, as it sustained damage often not found until after opening and testing, or at least careful inspection. Not sure if Hornby used drop tests on stuff from the early-late 2000s, either. About half the 7 or 8 engines I bought at good discount after the quake I had to return as too damaged, things like broken buffers, and the shop (Acorn) stopped offering them shortly after that.

[Gruffalo]

And could it be possible that Steam will have any Stars at Warley?

[Ian Hargrave]

Tried to contact them by e-mail and telephone to take delivery of mine at NEC.Impenetrable as the Kremlin,I'm afraid.What is irritating,if indeed they HAVE them there,is that I need not then have pre-ordered .We shall see.

I shall go armed with a copy of my order anyway.Happy days!