Anne and me, from the D.As. kit in 7mm.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

I've now got three build threads on the go. That's a bit much for me!

 

In the title there is no joke or pun intended, I live in Barrow, the loco was involved in the horrific smash at Harrow, when over one hundred and thirty people died.

 

As the loco did not have a long service only about 8 weeks, this is one of the few colour photos of her.

 

So what do you get in the kit?

The first parts are the tender that was unique to this loco, in that it had roller bearings and also had step plates that looked more like loco ones. The kit has these axle box's as castings. 

The body etches

 

On the tender inner frames I'm thinking about using some roller bearing and split axle's for pick-up, I think that using these frames I should be able to do it. Having had a look on the Tecnobots web site, I can get roller bearing for about £1.00 each.

 

Some of the castings for the tender. All of these are in W/M but some parts are cast in brass (you will see them later).

 

Then we look at the loco frames,

On these scans you will only see some of the etches, on this one I think that you can see all of the pony truck, along with the bogie.

 

All of the rest are all the etches and castings, I'm getting ready to start cooking tea, so I'm going to have to sign off, so you will see some scans that have no captions to go with them.

 

OzzyO. 

 

EDIT, to add captions to the scans that I did not add the captions to yesterday.

The top brass etch are the unique steps for Anne's tender, cylinders and the N/S etch the rear loco frames etc.

 

The etches for the the valve gear at the top and most of the main frames at the bottom.i do like the idea of test half etches for rivets.

 

The etchs for some of the parts for on the main footplate, at the bottom left of the top etch is the smokebox. The bottom etch is most of the parts for the cab.

 

Etches for the main footplate, at the left you can see the backing plates for the nameplates. These were unique to Anne as the rest of the princesses had the name plates on the centre splasher.

 

The bag of turnings,

 

The brass casting for the loco and tender,

 

Most of the W/M castings for the tender, I may look at replacing some of them with brass castings at a later date, but only if the part is in a vulnerable position.

 

Some of the W/M castings for the engine, I think that I will be replacing the injector with brass castings, as I will have to add all the pipe work to them. But we shall see?

 

Most of the big castings for the engine, including the backhead, front smokebox ring, outside castings for the bottom of the firebox. The castings for the front steam pipe covers have not turned out so well in this scan so I'll do them again.

 

the castings for the front steam pipe covers, still not the best but you can at least see the outside of one of them.

 

The N/S castings including cross-heads and slide bars. The bag looks to contain the screw couplings.

 

Sorry about having to do some of the etches as two scans, but the etches are to big for my A4 scanner. This may give you an idea of how long the engine is.

[Pete Harvey]

This will be worth following as with your other threads Ozzyo.

 

Pete

[JeffP]

David Andrews' stuff is very beautiful, isn't it?

 

Loking forward to the build.

 

Happily, my back is MUCH better, so when I get back from France I'll be re-starting "Alcazar".

[steve fay]

I'm really looking forward to seeing this come together and even more looking forward to seeing her run.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

one of the things that has surprised me is that there are no name plates for Anne, some of the parts that just say remove after completing could have been used, the words that are on them could still have been on them only smaller. After all these etches can only be used for one loco.

 

OzzyO.     

[scot6p]

This looks like it's going to be a good build if Ozzyo is building it   can't wait. 

 

Len

[DLT]

Thats a mightily impressive kit there Ozzy, I look forward to watching your progress.

All the best, Dave.

[steve fay]

A special commission from Chris at Severn Mill is the way to go.

chris@severnmillnameplates.co.uk

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

I've edited my first post to put some captions that I did not do yesterday.

 

As I'm thinking about using split axles for the pick-ups on the tender and using roller bearings, I can not use what I would have liked to. Along the lines of this.

 

To get the best out of the roller bearings I have to have the axles fixed in to the roller bearings. This will produce it's own problems. The first is that I can't use the bearings for the pick-ups. So do I give up on the roller bearings? One problem that I can see is that the centre axle will not be able to move side ways, so I may have to build into the front frame section a bit more give (play). 

 

No, what I think that I'll have to do is to have some rubbing pick-ups on the axles (not what I wanted to do) but if all I'm using is something like 0.5mm Phos Bronze wire it should not add any more drag than what I've lost using the roller bearings (I hope?).

 

As I'm looking at only using the tender for pick-ups, how do I test the engine on it's own? If all goes to plan the engine will have all the drivers sprung with no pick-ups on them. This then gives another problem how do I test the engine without the tender? When I was speaking to a mate he said why not fit a split axle to the pony, then I'd have one axle to pick up power with on the engine. It may not sound a lot but for testing it should be enough (I hope). When I have the engine and tender coupled together this will give eight wheel pick-up.That should be enough.  

 

OzzyO. 

[dajt]

For testing the loco, how about soldering a plug to the motor which you can use to attach a battery? I've found a 9v battery works well.

 

Are you sure you can't get current through the bearings? I recently read of someone doing that. They thought they'd get spark erosion of the balls, but did something magical with electricity (based upon prototype practice) to stop this.

 

Regards,

David.

[Sandy Harper]

Hi Paul

 

In 7mm scale, do we really need roller bearings? I don't think so. If you are concerned about wear then you could replace brass bearings with phosphor bronze but I have never seen brass bearings worn to that extent.

 

My S15 had no pickups in the loco but I found no problem testing it on the rolling road with wires tied directly to the motor tags.

 

With a six wheel tender I would use piano wire bearing down on the brass bearing with a small hole drilled into it to prevent rotation of the bearing. The other end of the wire would be soldered to a length of thin double sided copperclad attached to the inside of the chassis frames. This then acts as both a spring (with hornblocks) and non friction pickups.

 

Looking forward to seeing this build.

 

Regards

Sandy

[JeffP]

A special commission from Chris at Severn Mill is the way to go.

chris@severnmillnameplates.co.uk

 

Not cheap, but exquisite stuff.

[steve fay]

Jeff

I no there not cheap, but it hasn't stopped me, I've had two commisions off Chris besides all my other plates, The South Wales Borderers 4037 and 34064 Fighter Command. Both superb plates, the regimental badge on 4037 is stunning. (Just need some money to have the locos built )

I think once you've factored in the cost of everything else the plates don't seem so costly & after all she is a one off.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

I'll try and reply to all the questions and comments from above.

 

For the name plates I do think that I'll be using Chris at 7mm, with a bit of luck to get a set of plates commissioned should not be to bad as he does most of the plates already, all the tender plates and shed plate, the makers plates and name plates would be new, but I'm a bit off needing them.

 

Testing the loco, I have a rolling road but I also like to do a lot of testing on the test track, that way it also tests the suspension as well. That's why I'm thinking about the pick up on the pony axle.

 

Roller bearings.

When I saw them at about £1.00 each I thought why not, if the idea works on the tender I may look at using them on the loco drivers. About the only problem that I can see at the moment is that the middle axle will not have any end float on it, so I may just have a plane bearing on that axle.

 

I'm not worried about picking up through the roller bearings, it's more the amount of tender frame spacers that I'd have to sort out (about six). I could also go for the American system, but I like the engine and tender bodies dead. To do this with the roller bearings at the moment it looks like I will still have to have a rubbing pick-up on the axle. Or have the insulating bush on the out side of the roller bearing.

Why do I say that? The O/D of the bearing is 10mm, so the insulating bush at its smallest would be 10.5mm, the width of what would be the horns on the frame are about 14mm so that would only leave 1,75mm each side, the inner frames are etched in 0.026" brass so that may be OK. 

 

All of this is at the planning stage so some things may change, but if anyone has any ideas please post them. Depending on work this week I may get a start on this next weekend!

 

OzzyO. 

 

PS. I may just use the roller bearings on the fixed rear axle and plain bearings on the front two axles.  

[Scale7JB]

I have used roller bearings on a number of engines in 7mm scale and the improvement in running is huge..

 

Also engines will need less running in time and maintenance..

 

As regards roller bearings and split axle, it's something I considered a couple of years back...and failed miserably.. I tried to mill my own plastic Hornguides.. Not accurate enough.. Then I had heard about the pitting that can be experienced, especially with 17volt DCC, and thought I'd had a way around it..

 

At quite a bit of expense, I ordered from America, a set of ceramic roller bearings to be used with milled brass Hornguides... Still no luck.. It seemed from what i could tell that the lubricant in the bearings was able to create continuity between the metal bearing shells and the ceramic balls..

 

In the end I went (very reluctantly) for plungers..!

 

JB.

[ozzyo]

I have used roller bearings on a number of engines in 7mm scale and the improvement in running is huge..

Also engines will need less running in time and maintenance..

In the end I went (very reluctantly) for plungers..!

 

JB.

 

Hello JB,

 

thanks for the heads up on your experiences. If I decide to go for roller bearings on the engine (I will say this as a loco is the complete thing) I would end up milling my own horn guides and boxes out of brass. The down side would be that the "axle-box" would have to be about 12mm square so it would be a bit over scale. On large boilerd engines you would not see them, but on engines that have their boilers at a high pitch they could look out of place. 

 

I don't like some of the roller bearing horn guides and boxes that are on the market, as some of them just rely on the out-side of the bearing to act as the axle box. What is to stop them rotating? To get the best out of a roller bearing the inside ring has to fit on to the shaft and the outer ring has to also be fixed. If not, all you have is an expensive plan bearing.

 

On plunger pick-ups try the Gibson 4mm ones. I've used them on one or two 7mm locos and they seem to work OK. They look to have a bit less drag than the Slater's ones. I don't know how well they would work with DCC in 7mm though. But using a good motor and gearbox combo I would not expect that you would pull much more than 1 Amp.

 

OzzyO.

[JeffP]

Ozzy, when you say roller bearings, do you mean true roller bearings, or just bearings with ball-races in them?

 

I wasn't aware that anyone did actual roller bearings in sizes small enough for 7mm?

 

Roller bearing: https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1360&bih=617&q=roller+bearing&oq=roller+bearing&gs_l=img.12..0l10.3199.6042.0.9321.14.12.0.2.2.0.143.1157.7j5.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.8.img.mWlY_oV8gys#imgrc=Zb8lE_9UTk_wtM%3A%3B2EguqXwgJ_esNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.engineerlive.com%252Fmedia%252Fimages%252Flarge%252Flarge_Schaeffler_caged_needle_roller_bearing_LR.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.engineerlive.com%252FAsia-Pacific-Engineer%252FPower_Transmission%252FNeedle_roller_bearings%25253A_60_years_and_still_evolving%252F22877%252F%3B543%3B591

 

Bearing: https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1360&bih=617&q=ball+race+bearing&oq=ball+race+bearing&gs_l=img.12..0.3976.7442.0.10251.17.12.0.5.5.0.171.1151.10j2.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.8.img.yCpCT6WWZvE#imgrc=kiHF7sQnNtykNM%3A%3B_8rSdeHrNrX74M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fthisoldtractor.com%252Fgtbender%252Fmg_images%252Fbearing_ball_double_row_b.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fthisoldtractor.com%252Fgtbender%252Fbearing.htm%3B193%3B188

[dajt]

In 5" gauge we sometimes file flats on the outside shell of the bearings to stop them rotating, but allow them to move up/down. You could try filing really small flats on them

 

Or perhaps fix a wire to them which could act as a spring and a stopping-rotation device, and have the bearing slide up/down between brass angle acting as horn cheeks. This might be a bit crude for your standard of work though.

[3 link]

Or perhaps fix a wire to them which could act as a spring and a stopping-rotation device, and have the bearing slide up/down between brass angle acting as horn cheeks. This might be a bit crude for your standard of work though.

 

Hi Ozzyo,

 

I have done a similar thing as what "dajt" has mentioned above is here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/17119-sprung-axles/

 

If you look at the frame spacer on the right I have drilled a 0.7mm hole through it and used the frame spacer as an anchor point for the springy wire that then rests on top of the axle bush, also I have fitted another piece of wire from the frame above to help stop the bush rotating.

 

And if you look at the back of the wheel, I do the same as you by replacing the 12BA screws with 10BA  .

 

ATB,

 

Martyn ( with no mojo ).

[ozzyo]

Ozzy, when you say roller bearings, do you mean true roller bearings, or just bearings with ball-races in them?

 

I wasn't aware that anyone did actual roller bearings in sizes small enough for 7mm?

 

Roller bearing: https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1360&bih=617&q=roller+bearing&oq=roller+bearing&gs_l=img.12..0l10.3199.6042.0.9321.14.12.0.2.2.0.143.1157.7j5.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.8.img.mWlY_oV8gys#imgrc=Zb8lE_9UTk_wtM%3A%3B2EguqXwgJ_esNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.engineerlive.com%252Fmedia%252Fimages%252Flarge%252Flarge_Schaeffler_caged_needle_roller_bearing_LR.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.engineerlive.com%252FAsia-Pacific-Engineer%252FPower_Transmission%252FNeedle_roller_bearings%25253A_60_years_and_still_evolving%252F22877%252F%3B543%3B591

 

Bearing: https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1360&bih=617&q=ball+race+bearing&oq=ball+race+bearing&gs_l=img.12..0.3976.7442.0.10251.17.12.0.5.5.0.171.1151.10j2.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.8.img.yCpCT6WWZvE#imgrc=kiHF7sQnNtykNM%3A%3B_8rSdeHrNrX74M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fthisoldtractor.com%252Fgtbender%252Fmg_images%252Fbearing_ball_double_row_b.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fthisoldtractor.com%252Fgtbender%252Fbearing.htm%3B193%3B188

 

Hello JeffP,

 

when I say roller bearing it's to differentiate between a plain bearing and one that has an inner and outer race. The ones that I have ordered look like this. These have a flange on them so you don't need a stepped hole to fit them into.

 

So the chances are it will use balls as the rollers. As in this drawing.

 

IIRC, the use of balls will allow a small amount of end thrust, that parallel rollers don't like unless you start to use tapered roller bearings with all setting up that is required. So I suppose that I'm going to use cadged ball bearings that have shielding on the out side to stop the lub. getting out and muck getting in. If you would like to explain why you what to know what the bearing type is I'm sure that some one with more knowledge of bearing than me will let you know better.

The basic two types of plain roller bearings.

 

Photos of the four basic types of roller bearing that you can get from Technobots, all sizes are I/D, O/D, and length. All of these are the smallest one's that you can get from them.

 

Ball / roller bearing 1 X 3 X 3,

 

Flanged roller bearing, 2 X 5 X 2.5, flange Dia. 6.2

 

Needle roller bearing 4 X 8 X 8 Looking at this one it may run directly onto the shaft.

 

Thrust bearing 2 X 6 X 3

 

So I would say that there is a good selection of bearing that we could use in 7mm

 

OzzyO.

[JeffP]

Interesting.

 

Do any of them take a standard Slaters axle?

[ozzyo]

Interesting.

 

Do any of them take a standard Slaters axle?

 

Hello JeffP,

 

by what size do you mean by a standard Slater's axle? as these come in a good few sizes.

Most of them are in imperial sizes, So you could just turn a bush to make the axle suit the I/D of the bearing. 

 

So for a 3/16" (approx 4.8mm) shaft you would use a 6mm internal bore then turn a sleeve to fit them.

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. JeffP. have you had a look at the site?

[dajt]

I bought some of those thrust bearings to use with worm gears. I wasn't very impressed - they don't seem all that free.

 

You can get imperial sized bearings from various places, I bought some 3/16" and 1/8" ID ones, but Technobots prices are much better than anywhere else I've been.

 

Regards,

David.

[JeffP]

Have I had a look at the site?

 

Not yet, I don't dare, I'll end up buying some for "Alcazar"...or my next project...........???

 

Is there a link?

[ozzyo]

Hello JeffP,

 

Is there a link?

 

as you can put links up but I'm not sure how to do that I would have thought that knowing the name.

 

technobots

 

Would help,

 

OzzyO.