RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted August 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2013 This is the first post in a workbench thread that will probably move at the speed of continental drift. The reason for the slow pace is that this loco is for me as opposed to the "day job" of building narrow gauge models for others, designing narrow gauge kits and generally retailing narrow gauge stuff. I am going to be full of questions which may seem odd or naive but you will have noticed in the opening paragraph a bit of a narrow gauge theme and this build is a standard gauge one, and in 7mm Scale at that, which is new territory for me. So what am I building? BR Standard Class 6 - Clan MacGregor My quest started on the modelling questions, hints and tips forum as a quest for information on the prototype. As we have now moved on to the point where its becoming a build I have put a final comment on that forum and started the workbench here. Why a Clan? Dunno really. Best I can say is that back in the early 80's I was trying to build each of the BR Standards in 4mm at a time when not a lot of RtR was available. For one birthday I was bought the Model Loco Kit for the Clan. Model Loco was the limited edition off shoot of DJH. I built that loco with lots of mods to the valve gear (to make it look in gear) and redid most of the plumbing with scratch built stuff. The drive was different to other DJH models as well in that it had a gearbox on the middle axle driven by a rubber tube from the motor in the firebox. Once it had run for a couple of minutes so the tube became supple it was silent when it ran. It was finished in passenger livery and weathered. Back then weathering was a real Marmite thing and when it was entered in local modelling competitions it either came nowhere or won. The result is a bit of a soft spot for the Clan's I still have it. Its tucked away in a box and I am almost scared to get it out as I fear it will look very dated by today's standards. Anyway on to the 7mm version.. I have to hand A selection of Clan photo's in general and some specific ones for Clan MacGregor. On the questions forumfailed to prove when gained its speedo so this will be a no speedo and no AWS model (we know it dodged the AWS queue) A full set of turned wheels for the loco and tender from JPL A motor/gearbox from ABC In addition on order are: - The Seven Models Clan kit is ordered for collection at Guildex The Severn Mill Nameplates set of plates for the loco on order So we come to my first question. I want to build the loco with roller bearings so the next thing to research is axle boxes and horns. Should I Buy some and if so which? I note from reading other peoples workbenches that when you bore the usual brass bearing out to take the roller bearing it tends to break through the sides as the OD of the bearing is the same as the AF of the brass bearing. Make my own with the bearing and horn just a smidge bigger. I have the workshop tools to do this but not necessarily the time. Also what would the impact on the rest of it be of bearings a smidge bigger? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibateg Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Hi Paul - I recall Hobby Holidays sell the roller bearings - I wonder if they do a complete hornblock solution? Regards Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scale7JB Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Hi Paul - I recall Hobby Holidays sell the roller bearings - I wonder if they do a complete hornblock solution? Regards Tony They certainly do, though it's much cheaper making your own.. JB. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Here is some inspiration for you. My DJH 72005. I'd love to tell you I built this...but I didn't. I painted it and then later bought it from the bloke who commissioned its build. Been very nicely built. I chose 72005 because I had a cab ride in it along one of the platforms at Carlisle in 1964. Magic! Enjoy your build. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted August 27, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2013 Jeff Very nice. Hope mine turns out that well. I should probably keep quiet but when you have been staring at photos of the prototype for ages its hard not to notice things. Your Clan appears to have AWS as I believe the box on the running plate is the AWS battery box. 72005 Clan Macgregor dodged the AWS fitting queue and was scrapped without ever receieving AWS - unless of course you know different. I know I am nit picking but that's the result of chasing photos of 72005. Most people won't notice/know Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 ngtrains I don't look on it as nit-picking, I'm glad you pointed it out. Said equipment will be removed a.s.a.p.! I like my locos to be as accurate as possible. In my defence.......the loco was bought by me as 72003 which did receive AWS. I renamed it and didn't check my photos. If I had built it, I'm sure my research would have picked up on it. (Honest!) The latest photo of 72005 I can find was taken in '63 and it certainly didn't have AWS then so I'm sure you are right. Thanks for the kind words, I may post another shot of 72005 minus AWS gear in the near future. Regards Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted August 28, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 28, 2013 Jeff I look forward to the revised picture If you look at the forerunner to this thread in the questions section we did the searching for info on 72005 to death. Its known it dodged the AWS queue and didn't get fitted. What we weren't able to bottom out was when it got a speedo. Were pretty certain it was fitted eventually but we don't know when. The RCTS books on the Standards says it was fitted post 59 . With the photo's we have collected we've bettered that to something like post 61 but we never got to a dated photo showing a speedo fitted so at the moment all we can say is that it got a speedo between 61 and the scrap yard. (The above dates are quoted from my flawed memory - I haven't gone back to check the research) I have settled on my 72005 not having a speedo as we have now proved she didn't have one late enough to coexist with some other engines I plan to model in speedo less form Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Now you see it...72005's AWS gear gone, many thanks again for pointing it out. Front three quarter shot also, (with speedo) the only issue I have with the DJH model is that the front footplate should project slightly over the buffer beam. If I had built the model I would have tackled that. For now, I'll live with it. You should have few problems with the Seven Models kit-I built their Crosti 9F and it went together well. As others on this forum have found, their castings aren't always brilliant, which is where Ragstone Models come in handy. I look forward to following your build with interest. I fancy their Caprotti Class 5 to go with my 'standard' one. Like you, I have always wanted a model of each Standard class, only 71000 left now, I have all the rest! Regards Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Lovely model. Only 71000 to go? I tried to do what you have done in 4mm scale, but gave up before going 7mm..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted September 9, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 9, 2013 I think I got it wrong at Guildex. I was supposed to be there selling stuff but I seem to have spent the profits on items for the Clan project. Biggest expense was the kit itself so having collected loads of bits for it over recent weeks I now have the kit. I also laid in one or two supplies collected catalogues of other stuff and picked a few brains. Its going to be awhile before I get started but the weekends brain picking session has led to two opposing views over bearings on my loco. I intend to spring the loco on the CSB method and I fancied fitting it with roller bearings so I was looking at different manufacturers horn blocks. I think I have decided what I am using - more on that later but whilst looking at the options I had the opion that rollers were the way to go and also that they were evil and shouldn't be used. Now I am confused so I thought I would throw it open to the forum for opinions Roller Bearings for: - Free running loco with less rolling resistance. Lubricated for life. Roller Bearings against: - Picking up current through roller bearings is bad for the bearings and will eventually cause them to sieze Plain Bearings for: - Simple, fine providing you oil them. Plenty of suppliers. Plain Bearings against: - Higher rolling resistance and surely if the lubrication is doing its stuff they'll have unreliable current collection I can see both arguments and I have seen a full size example of why you shouldn't pass current through a roller bearing. in my late teens and into my twenties I worked for BREL at Litchurch Lane and we had one line that overhauled HST Mk3 coaches and the line moved up one work stage every hour or so. A welder (due the BREL method of allocating apprentices to trades a dim form of life) couldn't make his earth lead reach the coach he was supposed to do a weld repair on so he tacked his earth clamp to the rail and carried on welding on the carriage. When the line was moved up each coach was pushed along by a fork lift or towed with a capstan. Not that one it had to be lifted and have it bogies replaced. Then, on the other hand, I drive and restore full size steam engines so i know that if the lubrication is working right it forms a wedge into the crown of the bearing and the engine should actually ride on a film of oil. I still fancy the roller option and I could avoid the electrolytic problem by fitting pickups to give a lower resistance path for the current but at the cost of adding rolling resistance which kind of defeats the point of fitting rollers. What does the forum think? One thing to consider is that the engine may end up running high mileages rather than pottering about on an engine shed layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Peco Electrolube? Would that overcome the problems with rollers and pickup? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ressaldar Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Hi Paul, herewith a few photos of my build from 2008, which I hope help the cause. all in all an enjoyable build, but I did not like the chassis frame arrangement. cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 You managed to make a (very) good enough job of it!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted September 10, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2013 Peco Electrolube? Would that overcome the problems with rollers and pickup? Jeff, in a word no. One thing Peco don't do electrolube any more. Electrolube is a trade name and Peco bought the stuff in. Now they have produced their own homebrew version. Its a bit like treacle and its not really meant to be used as a conductor nor is it an ideal lubricant. Its real function is to inhibit sparking and contact surface damage, The roller bearings come supposedly lubricated for life anyway. In plain bearings if its were to do its job as a lubricant (which its not the best at) it would have to be good at being a conductor as there should be a film of the oil between bearing faces which with an ordinary oil (and probably with electrolube) would be an insulator. I am possibly worrying about problems that don't exist but as I don't have the axle boxes yet now is the time to do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted September 10, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2013 Mike that's a very nice Clan MacDonald. I hope mine turns out as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Peco Electrolube? Would that overcome the problems with rollers and pickup? Who says he has to pick up current through the roller bearings? What's wrong with phosphor-bronze touching the backs of the tyres? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted September 10, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2013 Who says he has to pick up current through the roller bearings? What's wrong with phosphor-bronze touching the backs of the tyres? I did actually suggest that adding pickups would give a lower resistance electrical path so that the current should prefer that route to going through the rollers. Had I thought this through earlier I would have got wheels insulated both sides so no current could get to the rollers but then, thinking back to the origins of this project, the bits were bought in a backwards order because I was offered some ready machined wheels for a good price at Kettering that are insulated one side only.so I bought them instead of the kit and then got the kit last weekend. Its only supreme will power and a long list of jobs to get done that is stopping the kit being spread across the work bench Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ressaldar Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Hi Jeff & Paul, many thanks for the comments, glad you like it. cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAD Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I did actually suggest that adding pickups would give a lower resistance electrical path so that the current should prefer that route to going through the rollers. Had I thought this through earlier I would have got wheels insulated both sides so no current could get to the rollers but then, thinking back to the origins of this project, the bits were bought in a backwards order because I was offered some ready machined wheels for a good price at Kettering that are insulated one side only.so I bought them instead of the kit and then got the kit last weekend. Its only supreme will power and a long list of jobs to get done that is stopping the kit being spread across the work bench Is it possible to have the uninsulated wheels insulated by the manufacturer? Then you can go with wiper pick ups. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted September 10, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2013 Is it possible to have the uninsulated wheels insulated by the manufacturer? Then you can go with wiper pick ups. I don't know to be honest but I would expect not. They are JPL wheels and I suspect that they are insulated and then turned so as to turn out any out of concentricity the insulating process might introduce. That's certainly the order I would do it in. I could order new wheels but that would bump up the cost, totally defeat the good bargain I got on the wheels and leave me with some wheels I don't need Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ressaldar Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Hi Paul, I think you will find that Dave Brooks turns the wheels first and then cuts half way through the face of the rim, fills that with epoxy, turns the wheel over and goes through the remaining depth and fills that with epoxy as here on a set of Bulleid wheels on a rebuilt West Country cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 What about packing the bearings with Copper-slip, or the same stuff with aluminium particles in? Would that help conduction? TBH, I'm unconvinced that picking up current through the bearings will cause damage, given the low currents, the amount of time they are used for, the number of bearing-pickups, and the high contact area given the number of rollers. Has anyone done any tests at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Hi Paul, I think you will find that Dave Brooks turns the wheels first and then cuts half way through the face of the rim, fills that with epoxy, turns the wheel over and goes through the remaining depth and fills that with epoxy IMG_1293.JPG as here on a set of Bulleid wheels on a rebuilt West Country cheers Mike Those do look the part,, they LOOK cast! He must have an extremely thin turning tool...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ressaldar Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Hi Jeff, here they are on the finished model I think that they take a lot of beating. cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 They have more presence than a certain well-known manufacturer's wheels. Plus they still aren't a whole lot dearer. Do you use his crankpins, and if so, what are THEY like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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