Lets make those turnout kits we all have 4 mm & 7 mm

[Kenton]

 

Kenton

 

Cosmetic chairs are just normal C&L / Exactoscale chairs cut in half.

 

Code 75 bulhead rail laid on its side is about 1mm thick.

 

Thinking out loud, you could just buy some chairs and glue them to the copperclad sleepers with superglue, but ply sleepers would be best.

 

Are you just building this for fun or are you / going to be into O gauge ?

Yes makes a real dilemma - you know just how much I hate "kits" that are incomplete. By my rough calculation 1mm will raise this above the Peco - OK not a big deal as it is not yet competing with any other track so I could pack out the Peco stuff.

 

Sounds like an order for C&L and then a lot of tedious cutting. I just cannot simply leave it as "no chairs" in this scale it would be like leaving off a chimney from a loco. Rather obvious. Still shouldn't stop a start being made - just need to find some spare Code 75 and cut it into fragments. Hopefully shouldn't make life too difficult soldering the layers.

 

I've built locos and wagons in 7mm (O) for quite a while but with nothing other than a "test" length of Peco track and very little of my own to show for it. I keep yearning after a "small" plank of some description having seen some outstanding examples on RMWeb and at shows. But that is perhaps another story. A friend heard of my interest and "paid" a bonus with this surplus slip. Recommending these Waverley products as "excellent". I know nothing of their pedigree or if they are still available. So I guess this one should be considered as "for fun".

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

If I were you I would do the  following, buy some ply timbers and make it a hybrid kit, in so much that you keep a few copperclad sleepers for soldering the rails at the Common and K crossings, replace the rest of the sleepers with Ply ones and thread the chairs on to the rails.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

Evening meal over. If it were me, as you want chairs I would keep the rail, buy some chairs and timbers. Solder up both common crossings with either 1mm (or less) thick PCB or metal strip and make a ply and chair crossing. The hardest part preparing the rail has been done. The K crossings can be soldered up in situ. 7 mm chairs are so chunky its a shame to chop them up and raising the rail by 1 mm on each sleeper would be a real pain

[Kenton]

John, thanks for the advice .... I'm a bit ashamed to say I'm not taking it - the reason as I stated earlier is that I am a bit of a stickler for building a kit as it was intended. This is a copper clad soldered kit. What your suggesting with the additional purchase of ply sleepers and going down a ply rivet (or worse ply, plastic and glue it route) just takes it completely away from the kit to the idea of scratch building. OK the "kit" saves cutting, bending and filing the rail (a substantial part of building the point) but not what I want at this stage. I have tried that long ago with EM and the experience of failure - put down to many things - has been a factor holding me back from this kit.

 

So an order went in to C&L for some plastic chair which no doubt I will swear about when they arrive and require chopping up. Probably to be badly laid along the rail but will be bound to be better in appearance than no chairs. I will take your suggestion of raising the rail on offcuts of Code 75. Though fiddly and no doubt more difficult to get right and might be a project killer, it is needed to use the chairs. At least the kit will still be constructed as intended.

 

Sorry to be such a belligerent pupil by ignoring what is probably very sound advice. But the aim is to "make those turnout kits we have" not to start out from scratch. The chances of using this kit when constructed are minimal so it is for primarily for fun.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

Not a problem, just thinking about an easier way of construction for you. As you have said all the rails have been cut, bent and machined to length. It is just all those spacer bits you will have to fit. Tin the spacers on both sides better to do it before cutting to size

 

Another thought just to make it easier for you, work out which sleepers actually need to be soldered to the rails (common and K crossings and perhaps the check rails) then either slide chairs on to the rail before soldering or cut them in half afterwards and superglue them in place. I would solder the first and last 5 sleepers and the middle 5 sleepers, but only solder the switch rails in the centre rail only for flexibility. You will need slide chairs (which would be superglued in place) for at least 5 sleepers if not 6 each side.

 

Still looks good

[martin_wynne]

Recommending these Waverley products as "excellent". I know nothing of their pedigree or if they are still available.

 

Hi Kenton,

 

The Waverley 0 gauge turnout kits where manufactured by Steve Marris who died about 15 years ago. His death was a great shock to his many friends in Sheffield. His main business was making ceremonial swords.

 

The kits are no longer available and are much sought after.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Kenton]

Previously

 

Well step 1 was easy: Taking the good advice earlier in the topic, a new piece of MDF as a temporary workbench and sticking the plan (supplied with the kit) down with double sided sticky tape (2 long parallel strips).

 

Followed by removing each pre-cut sleeper from its pad and placing (copper side uppermost) on the plan. I'm now even more impressed with this kit - look even the copper has been gapped for me!

 

 

Now back to the subject of that 1mm gap under the rail - a quick look and it appears that I have no bull head Code 75 and only have flat bottom ex flexi track. This of course on its side does not produce a flat square profile and is far from 1mm. But all is not lost! A quick delve to the back of the WB in the brass wire'n'things box reveals lengths of 1mm square brass rod - perfect! Not only can I simply use my snips to cut it into sleeper wide pieces, but it is brass, which will take solder far more readily than the rail.

 

Nevertheless, I will take the advice to tin it first. Which, thinking about it, is probably also a good idea for the underside of the code 125 rail.

 

Now the instructions simply state: starting with the straight outside wing rail solder in about 9 places. I presume, that "straight" in this case actually means "bent" or "lower" as per image/diagram/plan. Also that there is no preference in which sleepers to use other than the "bend" should be in the middle of the middle sleeper [14]? So 1,6,8,11,(14),17,20,22,27 as good as any? Seems to make sense at this stage to avoid the wing and check rail positions.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

May i suggest that you start with both vees, just tack in place either just at the tip or at both ends.

 

Next I would tack (centre first) in place the stock rail with a bend in it (bottom rail). I would then check that with the stock rails in gauge with the vee above them is in line with the other vee, if not just adjust either the centre of the stock rail or vee. Then check the other side exactly as the first.

 

Now you can either solder up the vees and stock rail now, or tack the other stock rail in place, by gauging one end with the vee, tack the centre rail then solder the other end again using a gauge.

 

Looking at the curved stock rails, they do not seem to have sets in them. The set is the bend in the stock rail just before the tip of the switch blade point. This starts the turn into the slip (or turnout if you are building a turnout)

 

Another tip is to cover the double sided tape where the tiebars go so they slide

 

Good luck

[Kenton]

Previously

 

Tinned the brass square section and chopped it into sleeper width pieces.

 

The kit supplied 'V's look (to me) to be very professionally prepared, and frankly get around the most scary part of track pointwork construction.

 

May i suggest that you start with both vees, just tack in place either just at the tip or at both ends.

 

Next I would tack (centre first) in place the stock rail with a bend in it (bottom rail). I would then check that with the stock rails in gauge with the vee above them is in line with the other vee, if not just adjust either the centre of the stock rail or vee. Then check the other side exactly as the first.

 

Now you can either solder up the vees and stock rail now, or tack the other stock rail in place, by gauging one end with the vee, tack the centre rail then solder the other end again using a gauge.

 

Well I nearly followed John's suggestion: Soldering one of the 'V's first having soldered the 1mm spacers in line with the plan. This is going to look messy as the sticky tape is reacting badly to the heat and also collecting all the debris. No big deal, more important to have solid joins. The camera angle is no help, the V is in very good alignment with the plan and the tip of the V just on sleeper 25. Note that both 'V's were supplied much longer than required for the plan.

 

There is a little problem when trying to gauge in the outside wing rail, there is very little room for the gauge and with one straight edge across from the V to the opposite straight wing I found it difficult to position the other one without making it curve. I think I have one side done.

 

I will solder the other 'V' in place later, the fumes are getting a bit thick.

 

Looking at the curved stock rails, they do not seem to have sets in them.

No, they are there. Hopefully this close-up captures it.

Umm ... perhaps not!

 

Another tip is to cover the double sided tape where the tiebars go so they slide

 

Thanks, done.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

The kit looks to be excellent quality and you seem to be getting on well, the purists would want a blunt end without any part of the web showing. I do this on chaired turnouts, but can they really be seen?

 

One slight suggestion is on the cosmetic side of the Vee, in the photo there seems to be a step where the 2 rails join, a blob of solder in the gap, which is filed to shape to represent a continuous angle. As one rail is cut into the side of the other. A quick dab with the soldering iron will not undo the joint. 

[Kenton]

Previously

 

I've found the most difficult join is the first one on each length of rail. The roller gauge seems to have a life of its own and tends to roll off the track and board and the length of track falls off the little 1mm risers just in that vital moment when the soldering iron is touched on the sleeper/rail along with the solder. Once the first join is made the rest seem a doddle as the straight edge holds everything in place.

 

The important part of positioning the curved outside wing rail was to ensure that the joggles are the correct way round and equidistant from the centre sleeper.

 

The next steps start start to get a little confusing. First the bent switch blade, the remaining inside head of the rail was chamfered. The instructions then say bend each end down slightly. I can see why but not how and obviously by not much. Then solder to the 3 centre sleepers only using the straight edge and ensuring that the tips of the blades are set well in the joggle.

 

Moving on this is then used with the track gauge to position the two lower fixed point rails and using the flange way gauge to ensure the gap between the chamfered ends of these rails and the bent outer wing rail. What isn't clear is if this should be attached to all sleepers or not (particularly the chamfered ends - but I guess the clue is in the "fixed"... It is noted that only 2 of the 4 point rails has a joggle as well as a chamfer and these 2 are the ones to use here with the joggle facing the switch rails.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

Great progress and very impressive as a first go, not only because you are building a slip but adapting the kit so you can use chairs.

 

Ate you using liquid flux ?

[Kenton]

 

Are you using liquid flux ?

Carrs self flux (no clean - Ha! Ha!) 179'C solder cream ... I use it virtually all the time these days for soldering brass kits. Only a tiny drop required, 1 on the sleeper - hold the tinned brass rod spacer in place with a side of a wooden peg and touch 50W iron ... ZAP!!! when cool add 1 drop to top of spacer, position rail with gauges and straight edge, touch top of rail with 50W iron ... ZAP!! all done. Lots of smoke, no mirrors.

 

It will still need a little cleaning before adding cosmetic chairs but otherwise no cleaning of the rails.

 

This kit is making it easy - it is a shame they are no longer available, probably worth every penny to have everything pre-prepared.

 

One question: The kit did come with one gauge to set the flange ways. It has resulted in a gap of 1.90mm which seems quite wide to me ... though I guess it is a case of trusting the gauges.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

From the little I know the gap should be 1.75 mm on 32 mm track gauge, I use a 1 mm & 0.68 mm (EM & P4 wing rail gauges) hoping a bit of dirt will take it out to 1.75 mm. 

 

Again from the little I know on a straight crossing the momentum will take the wheels across as there are no sideways forces pulling them to one side or the other. I would make them a very tight fit.

[hayfield]

I had a bit of time spare, or rather I needed to be able to do something in Templot. Namely be able to make a plan for a single slip,

 

I have been able to do 90% of the work before but never spent the time in understanding how to finish off the plan. Well after stumbling around with a 3 way and getting it about 98% finished (been unable to put a gap on a rail that goes through a common crossing) with the assistance of Martin and others on Templot Club.

 

Anyway I have a bit of a troublesome curved slip at the moment so I thought I would have a go at making a straight forward plan for a single slip, I followed a tutorial on Templot Club and without too much trouble seemed to be able to sort it all out clearly on screen.

 

Quite pleased with myself

[hayfield]

Thought this part of a Y turnout build may be of interest

 

I am building a Y turnout in copperclad, I have designed it with a curviform Vee (curved not straight). Rather than curve the rails before fitting, I soldered the tips of the Vees (these have been cut over long) then bent the rail to the required curve and soldered, this should promote a nice smooth curve on the vee



The over long Vee rails will be cut and are long enough for the check rails. Next is to tack then solder the stock rails

[Kenton]

Previously

 

The other two fixed point rails were soldered in place using the track roller gauge and the flange way gauge to ensure the gap between the chamfered ends of these rails and the bent switch rail.

 

Next up are the middle check rails. The lower one has chamfered ends and is slightly shorter again positioned with the flange way gauge this time across the crossing and in both directions.

 

Further to yesterday's post I thought I would put up a close-up of the spacer used and the drop of solder cream (this spacer is waiting for the other middle check rail) Even this small amount is far more than is required to make a strong join but is the smallest drop from the syringe dispenser.

 

Finally for today (I've had a few other distractions - and no this is not taking full time) the upper middle check rail gauged in place. Note the slightly flared ends, all pre-prepared in this kit.

 

I'm beginning to enjoy this kit now everything seems to be dropping in place.

[Kenton]

Previously

 

Well what I thought were going to be plain sailing today has turned out to be a bad solder day!

 

Fitting the wing rails should have been very straightforward using the flange way gauge across the 'V' but not so. The first attempt had the point rails not lining up with the bent part of the wing rail. Disassemble and try again!

 

This is the result of the second attempt:

 

 

They now line up but not in the vertical direction (there is a step up to the point rail (both rails have spacers). But worse still running a wheel set through and the wheel drops into the gap - somehow it has gone out of gauge!

 

Looking at the plan and I can see where the fault is. Way back on the outside straight wing rail at the joggle (top of plan) the rail is off plan. As this is the reference rail for the lower point rail it is also out of plan despite being in gauge. This widens the whole crossing and consequently the wing rails are also out of plan. Thinking back on it, I instinctively thought this would be problematic it was only possible to use a very small part of the 'V' and outer wing rail for the gauge and everything depends on the straight edge - which is of course flapping around with only a small contact with the opposite V.

 

I'm walking away from it for a few hours to ponder the next rescue attempt. Probably adhering to the plan and ignoring the gauges. Still do not understand the step in rail though.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

Pity it has gone astray a bit, we all have done it. The good bit is its on a board, I should have told you  to look at all 4 sides before processing.

 

What I would do is to reset both Vees if needed, just to get the diamond centralised.

 

Next is to check that the centre part of the diamond again is centralised.

 

Then I would gauge the stock rails against the Vees, the plan is a guide.

 

As for the differing height, did you use 2 different bars, and or if the bar is rotated 90 degrees will that level it out as the 2 planes may be a different height 

[Kenton]

 

What I would do is to reset both Vees if needed, just to get the diamond centralised.

 

Next is to check that the centre part of the diamond again is centralised.

 

Then I would gauge the stock rails against the Vees, the plan is a guide.

 

The 'V' both appear to be central and in line with the plan (well at least one side). The problem here is that the gauging of the stock rails. There is virtually no rail length to check using the roller gauge. So much so I am discarding it altogether in favour of the digital vernier. The bent stock rail appears to be right on the plan but the curved one is offset upwards by about 2mm! at the joggle (sleeper 22) - I'm pretty sure that this is due to the straight line as when that was done there was no possibility of using a gauge and the only reference point was the opposite 'V' which is a long way away.

 

Moving that rail back on plan should then allow the vernier to set against it for the lower of the point rails (this also looks out on the plan. The lower wing rail will then hopefully be set up a little (on plan) again using the flange way gauge.

 

I'm using 1mm square brass strip for the spacers it seems odd that just those 3 joins are at fault. I'm thinking there might be a problem with sleeper 23 perhaps a fault in my laying out. The step up is from the wing rails to the point rails - both of them at the gap.

 

I'll have another go in daylight tomorrow after work.

 

Thanks again for the remote tutoring.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

I replied last night, but it seems I must have pressed the wrong button !!

 

Glad the problem is no where as bad as the first reply seemed to state,  digital callipers are very useful and I like the Peco 00/EM/P4 flat gauge (easily copied for other scales and gauges) as these will get into tight spots

 

If you are happy that the Vees and centre of the K crossings are correct ( the gap between the 2 bends should be just over 32mm as the bends are round not sharp)

 

I would not worry too much about the stock rails initially, but get the crossing rails in line with each other and the Vees.

 

As important are the check rails, the back to back should be spot on.

 

Now the stock rails can be adjusted to match the Vees and crossing rails.

 

Plans (Templot calls them templates) are important but are to be used as guides, gauges and straight edges should be used to make the final adjustments.

 

Glad to see you are on top of the problem

[Kenton]

 

gauges and straight edges should be used to make the final adjustments.

The problem is that the roller gauge is near useless - it can only be used at the remote ends of the slip for about 1cm of rail everywhere else it is compromised once there are latter additions, besides using it has got me in this mess.

 

The centre part of the slip (K crossings? - unclear terminology) seems to run just fine and the test wheel set trundles nicely through.

 

The problem is very much focused on the crossing at the 'V' where the wing rail is a vital part for wheel support and the roller gauge has no use whatsoever.

 

The interesting thing is that the "instructions do seem to make the positioning of the stock rails as the most vital reference locations.

 

As I said I was taken aback by the problem as I thought it would be easy steps with these and the check rails. The latter play very little part in the geometry.

 

Thanks again for the input - I will check that 32mm across the two 'K's. I will tackle it again later.

[hayfield]

Kenton

 

The K crossing is really a slang word, as the correct title is an obtuse crossing,

 

I always thought it was important for the stock rail to be an exact spot on to the gauge. However builders like Gordon fit the check rail first. Unless you are modelling in P4 or S7 the wheel treads are quite generous so you can be a bit off, don't forget 50 yrs ago digital callipers did not exist so + or - a bit was usual and the gauge tolerances allowed for this (hence the emergence of OOsf & 31.5 gauges)

 

Some roller gauges have flats filed on them, on the outside so it can sit over the Vee (really need one with a check rail gauge on) you can also file a flat on the check rail part to go over the wing rail where it flares out.

 

You may get a bit of wheel drop as the wheel goes through the common crossing, this is where rigid wheels on a wagon wins out as the other 3 points hold the wheel up.

 

If you read up especially Iain Rice's work, he distresses the sides and tip of the Vee as it gets worn away in real life. 

[Grovenor]

The first problem as I see it is the curved stock rail, which is out of line and not correctly bent to allow it to be gauged properly. At 'A' the joggle is completely the wrong way round and the rail does not have the required bend to follow the blade planing angle. The consequence being that the blade does not fit properly to the stock rail over the planing length and the blade tip is completely unprotected from an approaching flange. The blade tip is itself rather to thick and needs filing down a bit, but it should be protected by being housed in the joggle.

At 'B' the stock rail appears to have neither joggle nor bend so there is nowhere to fit a blade.

 

I have added red lines on this pic to show the gauge corner alignment, clearly the vee is located such that the tip is almost a full rail width out of line, the intersection of the redlines is well behind the vee tip.

Correcting this by moving the vee back will widen the flangeways to an unacceptable degree, they are already over width, the vee needs to be adjusted slightly to get the tip on the centreline, then the wing rails need to be repositioned in alignment with the vee and with correct flangeways. You do need to make a flangeway gauge for this, a bit of metal, wood or card strip will do so long as it is the correct thickness. Once you have the vee and wing rails correctly positioned the stock rails and closure rails will need adjusting back to gauge. At this time the curved stock rail can have its joggles and bends sorted out.

 

All a good learning exercise, maybe this will help a bit, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html, same principles apply to any gauge or scale.

Keith

 

[Budgie]

Gordon Bennett! If experts like yourself are having problems, think of the mess someone like me would make. Is it any wonder that people are after decent ready to lay s&c work?