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Lets make those turnout kits we all have 4 mm & 7 mm


hayfield

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I will look forward to seeing the photos, as for the plan, use it as a guide and use the gauges to set the gauge. There were 2 super layouts at Railex using copperclad turnouts, I guess not many noticed as they were more interested in the stock and scenery. So carry on

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Sorry, picture won't upload, so may have to wait until the weekend when I am not at work to sort this out.

Basically, after a flirtation with N gauge, realised that the track and other over scale compromises were too much to live with. Having made the decision to go back to 4mm decided to stick with 00, but now the Peco 'H0' track was now too much to beat, so purchased the kit to satisfy myself that I could build my own track.

 

To cut a long story short, and after having purchased 16.5mm track gauges, decided to try '00-sf'!!

Needless to say, the SMP plan is not ideally suited to this!

But, gauges acquired from C & L - and top marks to them: ordered a day after the flood and arrived about two days later!!

 

The original 16.5 gauges were useful, as I built the toe end using these, using the 00-sf just for the crossing and check rails - inspiration for this was Gordon S on 'Eastwood Town'.

 

I made a slight mess of the curved stock rail, I think, due to using the SMP plan, but used the16.5mm gauges to correct this, after resoldering.

 

All of this was checked as I went using various wagons : kit/ scratch built/ old Airfix!! Etc, and all worked!

Full marks for 00-sf!

 

A bit of a worry when I checked it with the only locos to hand, both old 1980's vintage Hornby!

Both worked (!!!?) until they got to the crossing, where both stuck, although one nearly made it!

 

 

I now have time to reply in a bit more detail, had to dash out as my Samsung S3 would not charge. The shop would only confirm that it was either the battery or phone, I had previously cleaned the contacts on both. I had another look and found what I think is a photo electric cell lurking inside, a wipe with a wet finger was all that was needed. Now do I still upgrade to an Iphone ?

 

The only problem with the SMP plan (and any other in 00 gauge) is the position of the knuckle (frog) part of the crossing. I never trust any plan with the setting, simply because I may have either filed the tip of the vee too sharp and or set it slightly in the wrong place. I always get a wing rail gauge(flat bar) and make a mark with a scalpel blade on the next sleeper both sides of the gauge on both sides of the Vee. These 4 marks (2 each side) will show you the exact position of the bend both sides.

 

Plans should be treated as a guide only, and gauges used where needed. Nothing wrong with the SMP plan used this way. As for the curved stock rail, I fit it with gauges against the Vee, next tack solder a sleeper to the rail every 5 or 6 sleepers and use the gauges to fit the stock rail after the set mark against the straight stock rail. Look along the rail (you can use a mirror) and adjust if necessary, any kinks can be removed.

 

Digital callipers are super, you can set and use them as a gauge or even make a simple bar gauge out of scrap sheet metal. Older Hornby locos are not very code 75 friendly, as are other makes from the same era, solution is to increase the check rail gap to suite. |But that defeats the purpose of 00sf 

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A little bit more:

 

Filing the 'v' worried me. But, having considered various jigs, did them by eye - it works!

If/ when I am building lots I think I will make some jigs - there was a post on here about using hinges - I think with something suitable fixed inside the hinge, then held in vice this will work. Incidentally, worked out that the v in the SMP kit ('3ft radius') seems to be around 1:5.6).

 

 

I find it simpler just to file 2 tips together rather than splice one rail into another when building a copperclad turnout. Over filing a bit is better than under filing as the gap will be filled with solder, but I prefer to splice both together when building chaired track. I agree checking with the eye works fine with build method. A simple jig can be built at little cost if needed

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A simple jig can be built at little cost if needed

Two little bits of ply stuck down with double sided tape works for me, the ply is used for the timbers so the only cost is the tape.

Pics here http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html

 

 

I find it simpler just to file 2 tips together rather than splice one rail into another when building a copperclad turnout.

I have seen prototype ones built this way by LUL, they were FB rail though and they have a very big milling machine.

The drawback is that you have to do a lot more filing, to make a 1:6 vee both rails will have to be filed to 1:12

Keith

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I find it simpler just to file 2 tips together rather than splice one rail into another when building a copperclad turnout. Over filing a bit is better than under filing as the gap will be filled with solder, but I prefer to splice both together when building chaired track. I agree checking with the eye works fine with build method. A simple jig can be built at little cost if needed

To make sure I filed the correct side of each rail I used one piece of rail and filed the ends both on the SAME side, then cut the rail in the middle and soldered in place. One thing I will mention is blu-tack, used to hold the rails in place when soldering (think this also came from Gordon's Eastwood Town thread) as it doesn't seem to be mentioned much, and makes things much easier!

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I now have time to reply in a bit more detail, had to dash out as my Samsung S3 would not charge. The shop would only confirm that it was either the battery or phone, I had previously cleaned the contacts on both. I had another look and found what I think is a photo electric cell lurking inside, a wipe with a wet finger was all that was needed. Now do I still upgrade to an Iphone ?

 

The only problem with the SMP plan (and any other in 00 gauge) is the position of the knuckle (frog) part of the crossing. I never trust any plan with the setting, simply because I may have either filed the tip of the vee too sharp and or set it slightly in the wrong place. I always get a wing rail gauge(flat bar) and make a mark with a scalpel blade on the next sleeper both sides of the gauge on both sides of the Vee. These 4 marks (2 each side) will show you the exact position of the bend both sides.

 

Plans should be treated as a guide only, and gauges used where needed. Nothing wrong with the SMP plan used this way. As for the curved stock rail, I fit it with gauges against the Vee, next tack solder a sleeper to the rail every 5 or 6 sleepers and use the gauges to fit the stock rail after the set mark against the straight stock rail. Look along the rail (you can use a mirror) and adjust if necessary, any kinks can be removed.

 

Digital callipers are super, you can set and use them as a gauge or even make a simple bar gauge out of scrap sheet metal. Older Hornby locos are not very code 75 friendly, as are other makes from the same era, solution is to increase the check rail gap to suite. |But that defeats the purpose of 00sf

 

I knew about the wing rail gauge, but not having anything 1mm thick to use I used a steel ruler to align the crossing - it seems to have worked! I know the EM gauge society sell the correct thing, but am now on the lookout for some 1mm aluminium or similar (anything which solder won't easily stick to!) - any ideas: I also realise that two pieces would be ideal.

I know what you mean about plans - in some areas it seemed way off. I followed the method of V, then wing rails, check rails, stock rails, with switches going in last.

What I meant about the jig in earlier post was simply for filing the V- I have seen yours for assembling the crossing first - I simply meant to use a hinge to file the V, stick something inside to make the correct angle, then hold the lot in a vice. There was a post somewhere about this - would make mass construction quicker.

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Two little bits of ply stuck down with double sided tape works for me, the ply is used for the timbers so the only cost is the tape.

Pics here http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html

 

 

 

For 4 mm scale I have a piece of PCB sheet and I use 1.6 mm copperclad sleeper strip soldered to the sheet to make the Vee, I de-laminate both the sheet and strip where soldering happens. I also have a cardboard chock which I push into the gap to hold the rails tight against the jig. I guess you could use hard wood strip or better still aluminium strip if a source can be found for some thinner stuff

 

I have been thinking of using aluminium strip sold by DIY shops to make 7 mm jigs, but screwing them to a wooden base

 

I knew about the wing rail gauge, but not having anything 1mm thick to use I used a steel ruler to align the crossing - it seems to have worked! I know the EM gauge society sell the correct thing, but am now on the lookout for some 1mm aluminium or similar (anything which solder won't easily stick to!) - any ideas: I also realise that two pieces would be ideal.

I know what you mean about plans - in some areas it seemed way off. I followed the method of V, then wing rails, check rails, stock rails, with switches going in last.

What I meant about the jig in earlier post was simply for filing the V- I have seen yours for assembling the crossing first - I simply meant to use a hinge to file the V, stick something inside to make the correct angle, then hold the lot in a vice. There was a post somewhere about this - would make mass construction quicker.

 

I find it really hard to see why 1 mm thick strip is not available from the likes of Eileen's etc at shows (and 1.2 mm for 00 gauge) mine measures 28 mm x 10 mm x 1 mm. Eileen's sell brass strip lots of brass strip 1 mm wide up to 10 mm wide, not the best material but to date I have not soldered my steel ones to the track yet. These are not only very useful to set the wing rails but also setting the bend at the knuckle, which is every bit important in obtaining good running. Don't rely on a plan for the position

 

With the plan, I use it to fit the Vee providing its in the centre (do check) even on well known makes of wooden bases, also for setting the heal end of the straight rail, all other places I use gauges or straight edges except the curved stock rail where again I use the plan as a reference

 

I have seen the EM Gauge Society's jigs, very nice tools and may speed up and or help in getting the correct angles. I just use my soldering jigs as a filing gauge, by filing it nearly to shape, then check against the jig and file a bit more until its at the correct angle. Just takes a bit of practice, that's all 

 

There are also jigs for switch rails bur again I find it quite easy to do them my self.

 

What would be good if anyone can tell us of a company which sells metal strip of steel, aluminium etc in various small sizes please

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Here is an offer for someone who wants to have a go at making a turnout without having to buy large quantities of parts, I have cut up some rail, made the switch rails, wing rails, check rails and soldered up a Vee, 3 strips (will be cut in half for posting) of double sided glass fibre copperclad sleeper strip will also be included and got Martin Wynns permission to include at no charge a Templot A5 template (00 gauge). All you need to build a point, providing you have a soldering iron, flux and solder

 

post-1131-0-77012600-1402763459_thumb.jpg

 

Most of the work is done, the switch and wing rails just need final trimming to length and I have included an old SMP flat bar gauge (fine for setting the wing and check rails and happens to be a tad under 16.5 mm wide well within 00 gauge tolerances), though a roller gauge would be much better.I have also added a thinner bit of copperclad for the tiebar

 

post-1131-0-32594700-1402763476_thumb.jpg

 

All I am asking is for the person to pay the cost of the components, as each copperclad strip is 88p and the Hini (nickle silver)rail is £1, postage will be Large letter which I guess will be £1.24 as I will use a hardboard stiffener to protect both rail and strip.  So with my maths its £4.88 in total.

 

All the hard work is done, sleepers need cutting to length, and as I said the wing and switch rails will also need a slight trim and filing to length. You will have to curve a stock rail and a check rail, if you tell me whether its a left or a right hand point I will bend the set, though its very easy to do. The Vee is soft soldered, its very easy to fit providing you start at the wide end and leave the pointy end to last.

 

A roller gauge would be best, if not a digital or normal calliper would work, you could even make a gauge out of scrap brass sheet, but as a last resort the SMP wing rail gauge could be used (I made my first points with one of these (just))

 

As said I would prefer it to go to someone who has never made a point just to illustrate how simple it is, and of course plenty of on line tuition will be available. If anyone is interested just send a PM and I will leave it for a few days to see who contacted me (if any) just so its fair to all. I am not going to get into kit supplying but I have mentioned to Peter (C&L) that an introductory copper clad kit may be of use within his range. 

 

A quick plug for Templot, I guess its the best its the best template making software available to railway modellers, allowing you to build your turnouts and crossings to any size and radius, using one of the many scale/gauge options available or even your own unique gauge. Very simple to use in its basic form and can be used to design whole layouts as well as individual turnouts/crossings.

 

Edit

 

I have left a foot on both switch rails, as I believe it gives a stronger joint as well as being prototypical.

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post-22978-0-03434900-1402776813_thumb.jpg

 

Here, hopefully, is my first attempt, from SMP kit (see yesterdays posts). I know the tiebar is awful (easily replaceable), but the whole thing was built as a trial, with the view that it would probably end up being scrapped. And yes, I know the curves at the ends of the check rails are excessive - I think as a result of the plan used.

And.....some of the soldering is a bit rough (I had to reposition a few things)..................................

 

Still, it works, and even as it is, I think it looks far better than ready made track (various brands are available!).............

 

By the way, a fantastic offer from Hayfield above^

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Without wishing to be critical as you have done a good job for a first attempt but the curved road doesn't look like a smooth curve to me. That may give problems with some locos with longer wheel bases. It may be because the switch blades and wing rails have been made as one. There should be a break so that the v polarity can be switched.

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Without wishing to be critical as you have done a good job for a first attempt but the curved road doesn't look like a smooth curve to me. That may give problems with some locos with longer wheel bases. It may be because the switch blades and wing rails have been made as one. There should be a break so that the v polarity can be switched.

You are quite correct about the curve - I had to reposition the curved rail and seem to have not got the curve quite right.

 

The switch rails are in fact separate from the wing rails (the blurred photo doesn't help), but the gap is very very close! I realised this after soldering the switch rails in, and it is something I will be more aware of next time - as I said, this one is expendable.

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You are quite correct about the curve - I had to reposition the curved rail and seem to have not got the curve quite right.

 

The switch rails are in fact separate from the wing rails (the blurred photo doesn't help), but the gap is very very close! I realised this after soldering the switch rails in, and it is something I will be more aware of next time - as I said, this one is expendable.

It shouldn't be a problem to correct. If you use a ruler on its side to create the curve you should be able to reposition the rail.

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It shouldn't be a problem to correct. If you use a ruler on its side to create the curve you should be able to reposition the rail.

Thank you for the tip - useful to know, however, I think that's it for this one. Next step will be to print off some templates from Templot, and practice by making a few more. I think I was hampered by the fact that once I had got the crossing etc lined up the other rails (particularly the curved stock rail) did not line up on the plan, so to some extent had to judge the curve by eye (I DID use gauges to line everything up!) but had to reposition that rail, and that's obviously where the tight bend in the middle appeared.

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attachicon.gifTurnout.jpg

 

Here, hopefully, is my first attempt, from SMP kit (see yesterdays posts). I know the tiebar is awful (easily replaceable), but the whole thing was built as a trial, with the view that it would probably end up being scrapped. And yes, I know the curves at the ends of the check rails are excessive - I think as a result of the plan used.

And.....some of the soldering is a bit rough (I had to reposition a few things)..................................

 

Still, it works, and even as it is, I think it looks far better than ready made track (various brands are available!).............

 

By the way, a fantastic offer from Hayfield above^

 

 

A really good attempt for a first try and you have followed the plan and instructions. I think the problem lies with the plan which I guess dates from the 60's as things have moved on, instead of thinking of radii we now talk switch sizes and crossing angles. A few tweaks and it will be fine. The problem with the curve will lie in the process you followed and can be re-done, remove both check rails and the curved stock rail and sand/file the solder off the rail bottom.This is what I would do to remedy it.

 

1  Straighten the kinks out of the rail or use a new one

2 Mark and bend the set in the stock rail (a slight bend in the rail just before the switch rail on the curved rail only)

3 Solder the stock rail opposite the Vee using gauges

4 Put the gauges on the heal of the turnout and tact the curved part of the rail in about 4 places using the plan as a guide, look to see a smooth curve and adjust accordingly

5 If all is OK  then solder the rest of the joints, then the heal using gauges against the straight rail

6 alter the curved switch rail to match the curved stock rail with gauges

7 Straighten and re-bend the check rails, the flares should be about 10 mm long and quite gentle, then solder back in place

 

The great thing about copperclad turnout construction is you can un-solder and do it again, each time you will get better. You learn to solder neatly, try not to flood it with solder, less is more.

 

With the curved stock rail I find by keeping the rail straight, then soldering the crossing first  and bending the rail  so 2 roller gauges can gauge across at the heal you will get a smooth bend, adjust to the line on the plan and just tack solder in about 4 places, far easier to do than write up.

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Thank you, as you say, it is salvageable, which would be good practice. I think I hampered myself by using my shiny new 00-sf gauges on an ancient 00 plan!

 

This, has, however, proven two things that I needed to be sure of: 1) That I can file the various parts, and 2) I can solder them together into something that works!

 

Will be ordering some rail and pcb from C & L this week, and then the next one will be done using templot.

 

In the meantime, need to think about how to do the tiebars properly.

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Why do we always have a straight at the end of the curve on the turnout?

 

Hi Keith,

 

We don't.

 

Set a curviform pattern V-crossing in Templot to run the turnout curve through the crossing. That's real > V-crossing options > curviform V-crossing menu option.

 

One reason to print your own templates from Templot is that you can make all these different settings to suit your track plan.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

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Why do we always have a straight at the end of the curve on the turnout?

 

It hardly ever happens in real life e.g.:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra1494a.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj1935.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrwj1068.htm

 

Keith

 

 

Keith

 

There are plenty of things we do which are a compromise or just different from the prototype when modelling, 00 gauge, 00/H0 flexitrack, small radius turnouts to name a few. Martin will be able to tell you why a straight Vee is the default setting, but for someone starting out its much easier to build, but even easier to change in Templot, just 2 clicks of the mouse.

 

In copperclad a curved Vee is quite if not very easy to achieve, a little more difficult in chaired track with splicing one rail into another

 

Thank you for the links, firstly try and make those with RTR points !! All 3 would be interesting projects, both in Templot and in building them

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Thank you, as you say, it is salvageable, which would be good practice. I think I hampered myself by using my shiny new 00-sf gauges on an ancient 00 plan!

 

This, has, however, proven two things that I needed to be sure of: 1) That I can file the various parts, and 2) I can solder them together into something that works!

 

Will be ordering some rail and pcb from C & L this week, and then the next one will be done using templot.

 

In the meantime, need to think about how to do the tiebars properly.

 

The only problem with the old plan is that the knuckle for 00sf will be much closer  to the Vee, but how accurate is its placing anyway ?

 

Its your first build and the plan you have used is past its best, but does it work ? if the answer is yes then its been worthwhile, if its no they also it may still have been worthwhile. Lots of things may have affected the build one being the enthusiasm to finish it quickly. Or just its the first time you have done something.

 

The good thing is you have learnt a lot from building it, as you will doing the next. Whilst you are waiting for the parts, have a go at improving it

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Keith

 

There are plenty of things we do which are a compromise or just different from the prototype when modelling, 00 gauge, 00/H0 flexitrack, small radius turnouts to name a few. Martin will be able to tell you why a straight Vee is the default setting, but for someone starting out its much easier to build, but even easier to change in Templot, just 2 clicks of the mouse.

 

In copperclad a curved Vee is quite if not very easy to achieve, a little more difficult in chaired track with splicing one rail into another

 

Thank you for the links, firstly try and make those with RTR points !! All 3 would be interesting projects, both in Templot and in building them

I posted because on my layout I have a double junction where the diverging tracks should have continued in a smooth curve at the same radius, through the junction.

I am using Peco code 75 and It is impossible to get anywhere near that effect. The straight diamond immediately ruins the geometry.

 

I tried some copperclad to make a curved diamond, leaving the peco points in place, it was far from satisfactory as having a point with a straight section each end still wasn't right, especially as the inner track still came off the point in a straight.

I gave up and ended up re-arranging the tracks so as they diverge to pass around a bridge pier and then converge again else I would have needed to make the complete junction to match! (maybe in the future?)

 

Keith

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The only problem with the old plan is that the knuckle for 00sf will be much closer  to the Vee, but how accurate is its placing anyway ?

 

Its your first build and the plan you have used is past its best, but does it work ? if the answer is yes then its been worthwhile, if its no they also it may still have been worthwhile. Lots of things may have affected the build one being the enthusiasm to finish it quickly. Or just its the first time you have done something.

 

The good thing is you have learnt a lot from building it, as you will doing the next. Whilst you are waiting for the parts, have a go at improving it

It does work, in spite of its faults - in fact I was surprised that some of the old wagons I tested it with (eg old Airfix with original wheels) went through it without any modification to the wheels (they are due for rewheeling!), which, I think, proves that 00-sf works (not that I doubted it would).

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I posted because on my layout I have a double junction where the diverging tracks should have continued in a smooth curve at the same radius, through the junction.

I am using Peco code 75 and It is impossible to get anywhere near that effect. The straight diamond immediately ruins the geometry.

 

I tried some copperclad to make a curved diamond, leaving the peco points in place, it was far from satisfactory as having a point with a straight section each end still wasn't right, especially as the inner track still came off the point in a straight.

I gave up and ended up re-arranging the tracks so as they diverge to pass around a bridge pier and then converge again else I would have needed to make the complete junction to match! (maybe in the future?)

 

Keith

 

 

Keith do have a go, I could be very wrong but building the curved diamond crossings in 00sf gauge helps with the smooth running of stock through it, especially long wheelbase wagons as it wheels want to go through an outside route (inertia I thing) instead of going through. You need the gaps through the obtuse (K) crossing as small as possible to stop the wheelsets going through the gap. Straight diamonds don't suffer this problem 

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It does work, in spite of its faults - in fact I was surprised that some of the old wagons I tested it with (eg old Airfix with original wheels) went through it without any modification to the wheels (they are due for rewheeling!), which, I think, proves that 00-sf works (not that I doubted it would).

 

 

That,s all you want it to do, work.  The cosmetic part is easy to do and comes with practice. Keep the tip of the iron clean and shiny, plenty of flux and don't over do the amount of solder used. I use a 3 mm tip, big enough for plenty of heat with a 25 watt iron, but small enough to get into the small gaps

 

Getting the bend in what the Americans call the frog (knuckle I think is the correct term) is so important, easy in whitemetal as you can use a wing rail gauge to mark (a blade is very useful to do this accurately) where the lines diverge from each other.

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Keith do have a go, I could be very wrong but building the curved diamond crossings in 00sf gauge helps with the smooth running of stock through it, especially long wheelbase wagons as it wheels want to go through an outside route (inertia I thing) instead of going through. You need the gaps through the obtuse (K) crossing as small as possible to stop the wheelsets going through the gap. Straight diamonds don't suffer this problem 

It did work reasonably well, but with the constant change of geometries, movement through the junction was far from smooth!

 

I made the diamond crossing from scratch using nothing more than a 36" tracksetta and a standard track gauge and laid it out on some card with copperclad strips and some spare code 75 FB rail.

I removed the card backing once complete.

I did the same many years ago when I was using code 100 track, neither looked pretty, they were just functional!

 

I cannot now do the complete junction on my current layout because the bridge pier ended up where the outer track would go.

 

I also made a 3 way before Peco had one in their range using an ink imprint of upside down LH and RH Peco points onto a backing sheet as a template- that did get used and was very successful.

 

Keith

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I posted because on my layout I have a double junction where the diverging tracks should have continued in a smooth curve at the same radius, through the junction. I am using Peco code 75 and It is impossible to get anywhere near that effect. The straight diamond immediately ruins the geometry.

 

Hi Keith,

 

You have highlighted the best reason for building your own track.

 

Using ready-made track it is simply not possible to replicate the myriad of prototype track formations, or make the best use of a cramped space.

 

A double-junction with a curve-over-straight diamond-crossing is a very common formation. In Templot it requires just one click to create a curviform ladder:

 

2_150840_030000000.png

 

Such a diamond-crossing is called an irregular diamond in Templot. You can see that one end of the diamond is longer than the other.

 

The main roads do not have to be straight -- it all works equally well if they are curved, either in the same direction as the branch road, or in the opposite direction.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

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