Class 47s and DVTs

[sub39h]

Hi there,

 

I understand that Class 47/7s are fitted with TDM to allow operation with either the Mk2 DBSOs and PCVs on mail trains. Why were they never operated with Mk3 DVTs? I thought these also work through TDM?

 

I have seen reference to Class 47s being used on trains with a Mk3 DVT but being run around to the opposite end of the train when returning so the DVT isn't used. I have also seen photos of a Class 47 on the leading end of a coach rake with a DVT at the end but then can only assume that the above was taking place and it would be coupled to the DVT end on it's return.

 

Any info would be much appreciated.

['CHARD]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the original 47/7s could only work with MkII DBSOs.

 

The much later EWS conversions to 47/7 could work with PCVs, but the functionality was extremely limited.  I think they could only perform shunt release and other low speed, short distance propelling moves.  I don't think this technology has much in common with the full push-pull main line operation.

 

The 'technology' fitted to MkIII DVTs was a new generation of push-pull compared to the ScotRail DBSOs, it was only ever configured to partner with Class 86, 87 and 90 at that time.  The Class 67 working with DVTs is based on AAR operation and is another generation again.  The 47s have missed out on DVT operation in push-pull mode throughout!

[dp123]

They weren't fitted with TDM as is classically understood. For the E2G services with DBSO, a much simpler system was used. True AC TDM wasn't fitted to the DBSO coaches until they went south to Anglia, I believe. When the 47s were retired from this, and used with PCV, the RCH cables were used for use with a simple system called PACS; Propelling Advisory Control System. This was not true push pull working, as it required two drivers. One in the PCV and one in the propelling loco. The PCV had full control of the brake, but rather sent power demands to the rear loco via the RCH cables and the driver in the loco applied power as requested. A locomotive compatible with a PCV required a simple PACS display unit fitted in the cab to show the power requests from the PCV and RCH cables to transmit the signals. These were fitted to 47/7, 86, 90 and 67.

 

A 47/7 could not work in push/pull mode with a standard AC TDM fitted DVT/DBSO. Nowadays you could probably have a 47 fitted with Green Circle working with a Blue Star fitted DBSO (NR/DRS) with appropriate MW adaptor jumpers.

[black and decker boy]

The only 47s fitted with push pull control were the original Scottish 47/7s, 701 to 717. These worked with the mk2 DBSO.

 

The RES 47s were only fitted With a type of communication link so the driver in the PCV could tell the driver in the 47 what power to apply. The PCV did not control the loco remotely but it could control the brakes.

 

Mk3 DVTs were built with TDM push pull control to work with the 86 / 87 / 90 locos.

 

SomeDVTs now have AAR control to work with class 67s

 

Some DBSO now have blue star controls to work with the older locos such as 31 / 37 (typically NR test trains but soon on passenger trains in East Anglia)

 

As Chard says, the 47s, with green spot control, have missed out since the Glasgow - Edinburgh push pulls ended in the early1990s.

[Satan's Goldfish]

The only 47s fitted with push pull control were the original Scottish 47/7s, 701 to 717. These worked with the mk2 DBSO.

 

The RES 47s were only fitted With a type of communication link so the driver in the PCV could tell the driver in the 47 what power to apply. The PCV did not control the loco remotely but it could control the brakes.

 

Mk3 DVTs were built with TDM push pull control to work with the 86 / 87 / 90 locos.

 

SomeDVTs now have AAR control to work with class 67s

 

Some DBSO now have blue star controls to work with the older locos such as 31 / 37 (typically NR test trains but soon on passenger trains in East Anglia)

 

As Chard says, the 47s, with green spot control, have missed out since the Glasgow - Edinburgh push pulls ended in the early1990s.

 

I may have missed out on some news, but does that mean DBSOs are due to return on some classic traction to the Broads? Certainly does seem a more logical solution to the DMU shortage than a pair of 47s top and tailing 2 mk3s and a DVT.

[dp123]

Word has it that DRS will be putting up DBSO and 37/4 traction for Anglia. There's a DRS DBSO in one of the workshops at RVEL Derby being fettled up, and looking very smart.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Word has it that DRS will be putting up DBSO and 37/4 traction for Anglia. There's a DRS DBSO in one of the workshops at RVEL Derby being fettled up, and looking very smart.

good stuff, I'll look forward to seeing that. The DRS mk2s that have already rolled out look very nice.

 

Additional kinda related question; as far as i'm aware the DVTs ran with mk2 d/e/f and mk3 carriages. Theoretically could they also be run with mk2 a/b/c carriages in a push/pull mode if required?

 

thanks

[298]

good stuff, I'll look forward to seeing that. The DRS mk2s that have already rolled out look very nice.

Additional kinda related question; as far as i'm aware the DVTs ran with mk2 d/e/f and mk3 carriages. Theoretically could they also be run with mk2 a/b/c carriages in a push/pull mode if required?

thanks

Yes, they did when being tested when new. Mk1 buffets also featured in some formations on the WC and GE.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Yes, they did when being tested when new. Mk1 buffets also featured in some formations on the WC and GE.

 

Good stuff, thank you.

[newbryford]

 

 

 

Some DBSO now have blue star controls to work with the older locos such as 31 / 37 (typically NR test trains but soon on passenger trains in East Anglia)

 

.

 

Strictly speaking, the NR fleet 9701/2/3/8/14 are no longer DBSO's as they've had the brake compartment removed - they are Remote Train Operating Vehicles (RTOV), but are however, to maintain the confusion, still called DiBSO's by the RVEL staff.....

 

Cheers,

Mick

[dp123]

 

 

Strictly speaking, the NR fleet 9701/2/3/8/14 are no longer DBSO's as they've had the brake compartment removed - they are Remote Train Operating Vehicles (RTOV), but are however, to maintain the confusion, still called DiBSO's by the RVEL staff.....

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Everybody calls them DBSOs. I'm sure not even the training manuals mention RTOV, although I have heard it before.

[Rhydgaled]

I may have missed out on some news, but does that mean DBSOs are due to return on some classic traction to the Broads? Certainly does seem a more logical solution to the DMU shortage than a pair of 47s top and tailing 2 mk3s and a DVT.

I've thought there must be a better solution than 2x 47+DVT as well. Given the range of AC-TDM driving vehicles out there (the mrk2 DBSOs, mrk3 DVTs and mrk4 DVTs) I've long thought why doesn't somebody create a pool of AC-TDM diesel locos that could then run with any DVT/DBSO? Much more sensible I would of thought than having to modify both the locos and DVTs (as Chiltern/ATW have done, 67s and DVTs both required mods in order to work together, meaning a limited pool of both locos and DVTs). My way would would still have a limited pool of locos but could use any DVT/DBSO. Not having to modify the DVTs would also mean you could have the class 90 on the London-Yarmouth service which is dragged beyond Norwich could have the 90 swapped for the diesel at Norwich and the diesel would be able to work push-pull with the DVT.

 

The DRS DBSOs though I thought were bound for the Cumbrian coast, so don't know where that leaves the Anglian loco-hauled.