Pre grouping RTR

[billbedford]

What you want is is pre-grouping RTR carriages. What you need, if they don't materialise from Bachmann and the likes, is to acquire the simple skills to make your own from the wide range of pre-group kits available (although the SECR may not be that well supported).

 

Apologies if that seems pedantic or harsh, but remember that many of the kit manufacturers of these pre-group kits started up because they wanted to model a particular railway/era/location and there was nothing suitable available. They learned how to design photo etch artwork, make casting patterns, etc. to get what they wanted. We are fortunate that these items are available and learning how to assemble them isn't too great a challenge. Some liveries can be difficult, the LNWR being a good example, but some are quite easy, the SECR probably being one of them.

 

But, Jol, if the RTR guys gib at paying £40-50 for their Hornby/Bachmann coaches, are they going to shell out £70-80 on a kit that still need assembling and painting?

[t-b-g]

What LNWR modeller is saying is quite right. It isn't arrogant to point out the hard truth that if you want a pre-grouping layout, you will have to build things for yourself, or pay somebody else to build them for you.

 

Pre-grouping modelling is, in my view, one of the last areas of modelling standard gauge railways from this country, where people who enjoy making things haven't had their chosen field swamped by a mass of superb RTR productions.

 

And that is why I like it! It is a chance to build things that don't look like what everybody else has on their layouts.

 

My own modelling is more about the legacy of people like Peter Denny than it is about a factory in China and long may that continue. If it is arrogant to enjoy making things and not wanting everybody else to have (probably better then mine) RTR versions of what I make, then so be it.

 

When I started modelling, there was very little RTR stuff around. Certainly not enough to model a particular area or company. So my first layouts were a bit of a mixture of regions. Nowadays the choice is much wider and there are many more choices that the RTR people can make without the need for kit or scratchbuilding.

 

I am not saying that layouts built with RTR stuff are inferior as there have been some superb ones and most RTR stuff is better than what I can build. But if you wish to build a layout with RTR stuff, it makes absolute sense to base your railway on what is available, rather than choosing to model something that requires locos and stock that haven't yet (and are unlikely to be) produced.

 

Your options for modelling pre-grouping are to either build things, or pay for somebody else to build them for you or to wait (maybe for ever) until the RTR people make what you want.

 

Edited to add "Wait for second hand ones to come up for sale as pregrouping modellers pop their clogs"

 

It really is as simple as that.

 

Tony

[Jol Wilkinson]

I feel that I must break a friendly lance with  LNWRModeller, who seems to believe that he knows better than I do as to what I want/need. Sorry, my young friend, but your view - however kindly meant - comes across as thoughtless arrogance.

 

In the context of r-t-r vs kit build, what I believe that I need is to turn the clock back fifty years to a time when I had the requisite skills of hand and eyesight, and make use of the time I now have available, and assemble the kits that were not available then.

 

Quite simply, but for today's high quality r-t-r, and the generous help I receive from talented friends, I would not be a participant but a bye-stander. So many thanks, but we must agree to differ.

 

PB

Peter,

 

it is not thoughtless arrogance, but a strong belief that if you want something enough you will find a way to achieve it. Even more so if you need it. Simply hoping that someone will produce it for you won't get it done.

 

However, if you are fortunate to have a circle of friends that will do it for you, or you can barter one skill for another, or afford to pay for someone to build it for you then that is great. If the passing years cause you to lose the skills that you once had then finding other ways to get what you want is a real blessing, but just posting wishlists on RMweb or other forums isn't likely to get much of a result. That is the point I was trying, but appear to have failed, to make.

 

Attending an exhibition such as Railex, ExpoEM or Scaleforum will also show that most of today's model makers are not in the first flush of youth. At sixty eight, I don't find it as easy as I used to create what I want, but I'll keep at it as long as I can. 

 

Jol

[Poggy1165]

I would be delighted if pre-group modelling became a mass movement. Absolutely delighted. Even if it did the chance of RTR manufacturers producing a comprehensive collection of 7mm GCR stuff would be remote, so I could still have an individual model if I wanted. However, I cannot see it happening because:

 

a) The chicken-and-egg situation. Most modellers will not choose an era/company/location unless there is substantial RTR support for it. Manufacturers will not produce substantial RTR support for a particular era/company/location unless they perceive a strong demand for it.

bee) 'Nostalgic' modelling - the majority of modellers (not all) seem to prefer to model what they recall from their youth - now variously 1950s/1960s/1970s/1980s. It was ever thus, and I don't think it will ever change. This only seems to apply to railway modelling - there are plenty of ship modellers building sailing ships for example - but I would be amazed if there was a significant shift from this culture.

c) Modelling pre-group is hard work. To do it properly involves quite significant research. I don't see manufacturers being up for this. For one-offs perhaps - but for whole ranges? I don't see most modellers being up for it either, quite frankly. You either enjoy research or you don't - most don't.

d) The decline of the 'steam' generation. Pre-group is mostly all steam - yes, there are exceptions, but is basically about steam. Go to any exhibition, especially one that caters mostly for scales below 7mm, and you will see evidence that an increasing proportion of modellers are not interested in steam. (I don't like it, but it's a fact.)

 

So I strongly suspect that the small minority (because it is a small minority) who are seriously into pre-group are going to be scratch and kit-building for some time yet. 

[Andy Hayter]

While I have to agree Poggy1165, there is still a little bit of me that hopes you are wrong.

 

Recent experience says that pre-grouping rtr can sell well with Bachmann C class x 3 disappearing within weeks  (OK there sre still a few of the latest release around).  LYR tank ditto.  GCR ex-ROD ditto.  GCR 9J ditto.   

 

While I understand PB's points (and may rapidly be heading in a similar direction), I still agree with LNWRmodeller that build it yourself brings much satisfaction.  Equally I have to say that the general quality of today's rtr is such that I could never (and certainly could not now) build to that level of detail.  When they get it right it is awesome.

[Jol Wilkinson]

While I have to agree Poggy1165, there is still a little bit of me that hopes you are wrong.

 

Recent experience says that pre-grouping rtr can sell well with Bachmann C class x 3 disappearing within weeks  (OK there sre still a few of the latest release around).  LYR tank ditto.  GCR ex-ROD ditto.  GCR 9J ditto.   

 

While I understand PB's points (and may rapidly be heading in a similar direction), I still agree with LNWRmodeller that build it yourself brings much satisfaction.  Equally I have to say that the general quality of today's rtr is such that I could never (and certainly could not now) build to that level of detail.  When they get it right it is awesome.

There is no doubt that these locos have sold well, although most of them were probably in post grouping condition.

 

The question remains, how many modellers have been inspired to move into modelling a pre-group railway, based upon the availability of one loco from a particular company? Very few probably, as the accompanying stock is not available.

 

It is more likely that modelling the Big  Four may have increased, as it is now possible to have several locos from absorbed pre-group companies running under the banner of one of the post group railways.

[billbedford]

The Midland would be easiest to model, with 3 RTR locos (1F, 3F and compound) plus two more that can be adapted (2P and 4F) there are also the Ratio coach kits which are easy enough to build.

 

As for the other lines the loco count is, including recently announced ones;

 

GCR -- 3 (9J, 8K, Director)

L&Y --  2 ( Pug, 2-4-2T)

GNR -- 3 (J52, N2, A1 --just)

GER -- 1 (J15)

SECR -- 1 ( C )

LBSCR -- 3 (E2, E4, H2)

LSWR -- 2 (T9, 700)

GWR --   9  (Dean Goods, 43xx, 28xx, County, 45xx, City, 42xx, Star)

 

But none for the LNWR, NER or any of the Scottish Companies.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Importantly though Bill, what pre-group carriages and goods vehicles are available other than in kit form? It is possible that people will build wagons but carriages seem to be a different matter, owing to a fear of recreating the carriage liveries.

 

Even in kit form the GCR, GNR and LBSCR which have the largest selection of RTR locos (other than the GWR who weren't very much affected by the grouping) are relatively poorly represented. The D&S kits for the GNR and possibly the GCR are available from time to time but getting hold of them would probably be too off putting. Worsley Works list some, as does your own website but by comparison with the ease with which RTR models are promoted, reviewed, written and the relative ease with which they can be obtained, it is unlikely that they will attract the modeller who doesn't want to build from kits in the first place.

 

Will pre-group modelling per se be promoted by the introduction of a couple of locos each year? Regrettably I don't think so.

[Nick Holliday]

"Even in kit form the GCR, GNR and LBSCR which have the largest selection of RTR locos (other than the GWR who weren't very much affected by the grouping) are relatively poorly represented."

Whilst I would agree with the first two companies, I would say that the LBSC is one of the best represented companies, particularly with regard to coaching stock.  Starting with early Craven stock from 5&9 Models, moving up to Stroudley 4 and 6 wheelers from Roxey, then a wide range of Billinton 6w and bogie stock from Branchlines, topped by more Roxey 54 foot bogie stock, not to  mention Mallard/Blacksmith Balloon coaches still easily found on the second-hand market, as well as odd items in the EB and LRM ranges.  5&9 also do plenty of goods stock to supplement the ABS, Smallbrook and Cambrian examples, as well as the NU-Cast and D&S items from the past.

As for Bill's list, I would have added M7, O2 and Beattie well tank to the LSWR ranks, and A1 for the LBSC.  I take it that the J72 doesn't count as an NER loco in its modelled version, and if the Hornby E2 is considered worth listing, then their J83 at least nibbles at NBR and Scottish items, as well as the CR single and the generic Scottish Pug saddle tank.

[ian@stenochs]

Pre-grouping modelling is, in my view, one of the last areas of modelling standard gauge railways from this country, where people who enjoy making things haven't had their chosen field swamped by a mass of superb RTR productions.

 

And that is why I like it! It is a chance to build things that don't look like what everybody else has on their layouts.

 

Hi,

 

I have to agree completely! I have always modelled the Pre-group railway scene and I have something which is unique to me. I know that anything I build is unlikely to be upstaged by a kit or RTR.

 

I have to say too that I don't attend very many shows now purely because layouts are tending to a bland sameness with often the same stock, not even re-numbered, running. Yes there are exceptions, I went to the recent Perth show specifically to see 'Burntisland' in 4mm and 'Castle Rackrent' in 7mm. The later Irish pre group and correct 5'3" gauge! Both of these layouts demonstrate that you can model very effectively without the need for RTR.

 

However I do appreciate that there are modellers who think they need RTR & kits because they don't have the skills to build their own. I have to disagree on that. What they lack is determination and perseverance!

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian

[buffalo]

...GWR --   9  (Dean Goods, 43xx, 28xx, County, 45xx, City, 42xx, Star)...

What about the old Hornby 2721 pannier? That would make nine.

 

But, seriously, which of these RTR models is actually in pre-grouping form? In most cases it would need a serious amount of carving and filling to produce a representation of a pre-grouping engine.

 

Nick

[Poggy1165]

I would guess that a lot of people who have bought the (invariably limited edition) pre-group liveried engines are collectors, and other people who like a pretty livery. The question is, would the people who bought (say) Butler Henderson, buy four Robinson corridor coaches to go with it? If so, that would give you a GC express, but you'd still need an awful lot more for a GC layout. The only thing suitable that I can think of in RTR would be a carefully selected choice of PO wagons, as long as you weren't too fussy about the underframes. And even then you still need a goods brake, usually the hardest wagon to build from a kit.

 

The other thing I forgot to mention is the sheer diversity of the pre-group era. There were something like 123 companies in total. Even producing comprehensive ranges for the 'big 6' or the 'big 10' would be a massive ask. For example, LBSC prototypes are very attractive, but not much use to someone who wants to model the Furness, or indeed the North Eastern.

 

I hope to be proved wrong, but I really don't expect to be.

[billbedford]

The other thing I forgot to mention is the sheer diversity of the pre-group era. There were something like 123 companies in total. Even producing comprehensive ranges for the 'big 6' or the 'big 10' would be a massive ask. For example, LBSC prototypes are very attractive, but not much use to someone who wants to model the Furness, or indeed the North Eastern.

 

To which you can add the fact that, for pre-grouping companies, series production was an exception rather than the rule. Which means that there was only a handful of any particular diagram built. Hence the reluctance of any one to tackle the GWR top lights.

[JimF51]

Before kits started to fade out over here, one could find them in every model shop, both storefront and mail order types. So they were easy to obtain, when shopping for other items, such as a RTR loco. Also, for the most part, they came with everything needed to put a model right on the layout, once built. This was so for the plastic 'shake the box' type kits, as well as the more 'craftsman' type. If the car (wagon) or coach was not pre-printed, most often the correct decals and lettering were included. It seems that with UK kits, one must hunt down the correct wheels, couplers, decals, etc, to complete the project. So one has to deal with several sources.

 

As Poggy points out, the number of pre-group companies is also a issue. Most of them had their own Locomotive Superintendent, who had his own idea of what a good loco for the company would be, and had them built in the company's shops. When the next person in that position came along, he would decide his loco were better. In my case, for the SECR, there was wainwright until 1913, then Maunsell. If I go back past the formation, there is Cudworth, Watkin, Mansel and Sterling, all with the SER. So many different engines, for just a single company, and many with short service lives.

 

Over here, most companies did not build their own locos, but ordered from several manufacturers, albeit to their own needs. To the uninformed, 2 'standard' 4-4-0s, from different companies would look identical, except for the livery, even though one might be spec'd for heavy freight work, the other for high speed passenger service.

 

Re-newing my interest in UK modelling early this year, I pre-ordered a SECR C Class, as I had missed the 1st release. I then more or less forgot about it, as I started to explore working in 7mm. However, for the present, that is on hold, due to cost and space factors. A note from Hatton's reminded me of the C, so I placed a pre-order for the Birdcage stock. I'm now looking at what kits I will buy to go behind the loco, and most likely will buy a SE Finecats Class D kit, in the near future.

 

One of the attractions of UK rail modelling for me is that kit building IS still a large factor in doing so, despite the difficulties of doing it on this side of the pond. But I am not adverse to buying anything that comes out in RTR form, either.

 

Jim F

[billbedford]

Importantly though Bill, what pre-group carriages and goods vehicles are available other than in kit form? It is possible that people will build wagons but carriages seem to be a different matter, owing to a fear of recreating the carriage liveries.

 

 Bachmann have announced a set of SECR 50' birdcage  stock

Ditto Kernow for LSWR gate stock.

 

I've been told that Bachmann are looking at other pre-grouping stock, but I don't know how far they've got with it. They may be waiting to see what the sales of the SECR are like. 

 

Even in kit form the GCR, GNR and LBSCR which have the largest selection of RTR locos (other than the GWR who weren't very much affected by the grouping) are relatively poorly represented. The D&S kits for the GNR and possibly the GCR are available from time to time but getting hold of them would probably be too off putting. Worsley Works list some, as does your own website but by comparison with the ease with which RTR models are promoted, reviewed, written and the relative ease with which they can be obtained, it is unlikely that they will attract the modeller who doesn't want to build from kits in the first place.

 

 

C'mmon now Jol, you've missed the biggest range of pre-grouping stock. 

 

I'm in the process of drawing new printed underframes and roofs for some of this stuff, and, to be frank I have more work than I need. So far I can supply the following in the new format; GC 50' stock, GN/LNER 51' Non- corridor, GN 57' Non corridor, with the GC 60', NER 49' and 45' stock to be done by Scaleforum.

[Paul Cram]

Before kits started to fade out over here, one could find them in every model shop, both storefront and mail order types. So they were easy to obtain, when shopping for other items, such as a RTR loco. Also, for the most part, they came with everything needed to put a model right on the layout, once built. This was so for the plastic 'shake the box' type kits, as well as the more 'craftsman' type. If the car (wagon) or coach was not pre-printed, most often the correct decals and lettering were included. It seems that with UK kits, one must hunt down the correct wheels, couplers, decals, etc, to complete the project. So one has to deal with several sources.

 

.

 

Jim F

That is because although we all model to the same scale we use at least 3 different gauges/standards and therefore prefer not to pay for things we don.t need.

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

 Bachmann have announced a set of SECR 50' birdcage  stock

Ditto Kernow for LSWR gate stock.

 

I've been told that Bachmann are looking at other pre-grouping stock, but I don't know how far they've got with it. They may be waiting to see what the sales of the SECR are like. 

 

 

C'mmon now Jol, you've missed the biggest range of pre-grouping stock. 

 

I'm in the process of drawing new printed underframes and roofs for some of this stuff, and, to be frank I have more work than I need. So far I can supply the following in the new format; GC 50' stock, GN/LNER 51' Non- corridor, GN 57' Non corridor, with the GC 60', NER 49' and 45' stock to be done by Scaleforum.

 Bill,

 

indeed I did. Ironically your list serves to highlight how few RTR carriages are available or proposed. If you add the other readily available kits then the position is even more stark.

 

Despite the availability of so many kits for locos, carriages, wagons, etc. unless they are readily visible as finished models on the suppliers website, then the likelihood of the "newcomer" to pre-group modelling being attracted to buying and building a kit is very slim.

 

Look at Bachmann's and Kernow's sites, already featuring their planned pre-group coaches with photos of the prototype. How much PR have they had, never mind the interest on RMweb? So they are very much already very visible, whereas you have to search out the kit suppliers and their products.

 

Jol

[Poggy1165]

In fairness though the likes of Bachmann have almost unlimited resources compared to the average supplier of kits, who is more often than not a one man band or a very small company.

 

It's rather like the world of books. The big publishers have massive publicity budgets. The small publishers don't. I wouldn't want to live in a world of only big publishers though!

[Ozexpatriate]

As for the other lines the loco count is, including recently announced ones;

 

GCR -- 3 (9J, 8K, Director)

L&Y --  2 ( Pug, 2-4-2T)

GNR -- 3 (J52, N2, A1 --just)

GER -- 1 (J15)

SECR -- 1 ( C )

LBSCR -- 3 (E2, E4, H2)

LSWR -- 2 (T9, 700)

GWR --   9  (Dean Goods, 43xx, 28xx, County, 45xx, City, 42xx, Star)

 

But none for the LNWR, NER or any of the Scottish Companies.

Bachmann's 2014 009 announcement is pre-grouping, as is the Heljan L&B.

[billbedford]

Bachmann's 2014 009 announcement is pre-grouping, as is the Heljan L&B.

 

While I'll give you the L&B loco I can't think of any of the big four companies that ran the Baldwin tanks.

[Ozexpatriate]

While I'll give you the L&B loco I can't think of any of the big four companies that ran the Baldwin tanks.

Certainly but I thought the discussion was related to the pre-grouping era, not just constituents of the future big four companies.

[Poggy1165]

I'm well aware of the pooling arrangement for wagons - it kicked in during 1917 for most types of wagon, pretty late in the pre group era. Prior to that, only full loads worked through, most were transhipped so the foreign wagons could be sent home to avoid demurrage charge. You can certainly have 'foreign' wagons, but if you are modelling pre-1917 the home company should dominate, and the most likely foreign wagons would be from neighbouring lines. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have got a GNSR wagon at New Radnor or Bexhill West every day of the week. Occasionally perhaps.

 

Coaches - well yes, there were through workings. For example anyone modelling the GC mainline between Woodford and Sheffield would need GW and LSWR coaches (and indeed the odd L&Y, NER and North British.) But lets not kid ourselves. That lucky person would also need a whole lot of GCR coaches that can only be produced from kits or scratch. The branch line to Muddlecome on Slush will almost certainly only need the home company's coaches - and probably antique ones at that.

[drduncan]

So the moral is not all pregrouping is the same. From a gwr rtr perspective WW1 or 1919-22 is a lot easier than pre 1914quote name="billbedford" post="1520941" timestamp="1405893003"]The Midland would be easiest to model, with 3 RTR locos (1F, 3F and compound) plus two more that can be adapted (2P and 4F) there are also the Ratio coach kits which are easy enough to build.

 

As for the other lines the loco count is, including recently announced ones;

 

GCR -- 3 (9J, 8K, Director)

L&Y --  2 ( Pug, 2-4-2T)

GNR -- 3 (J52, N2, A1 --just)

GER -- 1 (J15)

SECR -- 1 ( C )

LBSCR -- 3 (E2, E4, H2)

LSWR -- 2 (T9, 700)

GWR --   9  (Dean Goods, 43xx, 28xx, County, 45xx, City, 42xx, Star)

 

But none for the LNWR, NER or any of the Scottish Companies.

 

To take the gwr as a case study, superficially it is well provided, but there are a few snags. Now as I prefer pre 1914 I will concentrate my remarks on this period. So off the top of my head and without checking my note books:

45xx and 42xx both have cab shutters to be hacked off (i understand the shutters are an early '30s addition.) Both have extended bunkers (1920s)

Dean goods needs a new smokebox door and other minor details if you can find a belpaire boilered version to emulate

The 28xx needs serious surgery to replace the 1913ish long coned boiler with a short coned one, smokebox reduced and a new tender.

The city, county and star all need varying degrees of surgery to boiler and smokebox.

The 43xx is probably the easiest for pre1914, unless you want to do one of the first 20 when you'll need to reduce the cab length

 

So the moral is not all pregrouping is the same. From a gwr rtr perspective WW1 or 1919-22 is a lot easier than pre 1914, but it still will require more than just shaking the box.

 

drduncan

[buffalo]

...So the moral is not all pregrouping is the same. From a gwr rtr perspective WW1 or 1919-22 is a lot easier than pre 1914, but it still will require more than just shaking the box.

 

I entirely agree, Duncan. The decade before WW1 saw numerous changes as the Churchward standard classes were developed. However, the 28xx were both more and less problematic than you suggest. Long cone (D4) boilers were introduced in 1907 but these were often interchanged with the short cone (D2) variety at boiler changes. Indeed the last short cone boiler survived until 1930. The 1907 new builds had medium length smokeboxes. The full length smokebox appeared in 1911, as did the curved drop at the front of the running plate and top feeds started to appear a year or two later.

 

Nick

[asmay2002]

So the moral is not all pregrouping is the same. From a gwr rtr perspective WW1 or 1919-22 is a lot easier than pre 1914quote name="billbedford" post="1520941" timestamp="1405893003"]The Midland would be easiest to model, with 3 RTR locos (1F, 3F and compound) plus two more that can be adapted (2P and 4F) there are also the Ratio coach kits which are easy enough to build.

 

As for the other lines the loco count is, including recently announced ones;

 

GCR -- 3 (9J, 8K, Director)

L&Y --  2 ( Pug, 2-4-2T)

GNR -- 3 (J52, N2, A1 --just)

GER -- 1 (J15)

SECR -- 1 ( C )

LBSCR -- 3 (E2, E4, H2)

LSWR -- 2 (T9, 700)

GWR --   9  (Dean Goods, 43xx, 28xx, County, 45xx, City, 42xx, Star)

 

But none for the LNWR, NER or any of the Scottish Companies.

 

To take the gwr as a case study, superficially it is well provided, but there are a few snags. Now as I prefer pre 1914 I will concentrate my remarks on this period. So off the top of my head and without checking my note books:

45xx and 42xx both have cab shutters to be hacked off (i understand the shutters are an early '30s addition.) Both have extended bunkers (1920s)

Dean goods needs a new smokebox door and other minor details if you can find a belpaire boilered version to emulate

The 28xx needs serious surgery to replace the 1913ish long coned boiler with a short coned one, smokebox reduced and a new tender.

The city, county and star all need varying degrees of surgery to boiler and smokebox.

The 43xx is probably the easiest for pre1914, unless you want to do one of the first 20 when you'll need to reduce the cab length

 

So the moral is not all pregrouping is the same. From a gwr rtr perspective WW1 or 1919-22 is a lot easier than pre 1914, but it still will require more than just shaking the box.

 

drduncan

 

Are you missing the coming GER Claude, LNWR Coal tank, GNR C1, LSWR Adams radial +. Beattie 2-4-0T?  Mostly needing repaints though.