0_gauge_novice Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Hi to all, I was looking through my rolling stock lists of the Greek railways from 1933 and they state that in 1920 the purchased (new or used I don't know) 46 open wagons from the UK. I have only dimensions and some weight data but I thought they would fit for my Greek Project and maybe there is a model around that is similar. From my list there are 34 without braking equipment and 12 with handbrake equipment. The main dimensions are 9ft Wheelbase, 20 ft over buffers 4 ft 8 in high planks and a 16ft 1in long superstructure. Does anybody know an open Wagon that would match about these dimensions in 7mm scale? I dont mind if it is brass, Whitemetal or Plastic.....I would be very grateful! Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 I wonder if they were wagons left behind by the ROD (Railway Operating Department) of the British Army? In this case, they were probably commandeered stock from the UK railways; most likely 4 or 5 plank opens on wooden underframes, a bit like these:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/h1744777e#h1744777e Parkside do some kits that might be of interest:- http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/acatalog/LONDON___NORTH_EASTERN_RAILWAY.html The reference to 'unbraked' is intriguing; I struggle to think of any completely unbraked UK wagon design, unlike French ones. I wonder how much of a presence the ROD might have had in the area? The Balkan Front was one of the less well-known ones of WW1; I'd only heard of it initially because my grandfather was a lorry driver, detached to the French, near 'Salonica', as he called it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 Hi Fat Controller, thank you very much for your information. I don't think these were wagons from the ROD. The list states the origins. For example RM (Railway Ministry?), or the wagons that were given as help after WWI are described as "Truce wagons" or if they have been taken over by the Greek forces during the Balkan wars they are described as "prey wagons". These wagons just have the description "England" so I would guess that they were bought or given from the UK to the Greek Railways directly without the ROD. I know that in the 20s the SEK bought a number of used locomotives and wagons from around europe. Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Andreas, This is pure guesswork, but I would moot second hand mineral wagons. Your dimensions near enough agree with the Charles Roberts 10 ton wagon, built from say 1894 to 1911. There may have been a financing deal between manufacturer and initial user, that has come to an end, so there are a batch of wagons available second hand. There were two types of wagon; side door only or side and end door. The latter were mainly used for export coal, tipping into ships' holds at ports. Side door only were stronger, so I would expect the Greeks to acquire these. Slaters Plastikard produce kits for the Charles Roberts design (7040) and the Gloucester design (7058). The Roberts design was sort of the industry standard, so I would suggest that kit. Surprised by the "no braking equipment" comment. They would have been returned by the user with hand brakes, so presumably the Greeks were planning to fit an automatic brake. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Hi to all, I was looking through my rolling stock lists of the Greek railways from 1933 and they state that in 1920 the purchased (new or used I don't know) 46 open wagons from the UK. I have only dimensions and some weight data but I thought they would fit for my Greek Project and maybe there is a model around that is similar. From my list there are 34 without braking equipment and 12 with handbrake equipment. The main dimensions are 9ft Wheelbase, 20 ft over buffers 4 ft 8 in high planks and a 16ft 1in long superstructure. Does anybody know an open Wagon that would match about these dimensions in 7mm scale? I dont mind if it is brass, Whitemetal or Plastic.....I would be very grateful! Cheers Andreas It would greatly help if you could track down a photograph, as it would give us a reference point for something suitable. Looking at those dimensions, it would appear that they were a standard Railway Clearing House design, probably the 1907 specification, for a coal wagon such as this Slaters kit: https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=7048FL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 HM, that's a 12 ton wagon. Without checking, I think the quoted dimensions imply a 10 ton wagon, but I'm prepared to be wrong. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 Hi to all, the problem is that no photographs exist to my knowledge....so it is not possible to do an identification through photographs. What I can see from the weights is that it has an empty weigh of 7500 Kg and it can be loaded with 12000 Kg. These figures are only an indication. I also checked the list and it states that they were put into sevice in Greece in 1920 so probably they were bought second hand but no year of manufacturing is stated. Thanks again everybody for helping out! Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 4ft 8inch high sides means about 33mm high in 7mm scale. This and the other provided measurements are extremely similar to a Slaters 13T loco coal wagon (LMS diagram 2038) which I have here. It seems likely that they would have run on 8-spoke wheels or on split-spoke wheelsets. The service date of 1920 predates the 1923 RCH specification, so it is most likely that they were built to the 1907 specification. I doubt that they were completely "unbraked" - it may be the case that they did not have continuous brakes, but had hand-brakes, and a certain number of them may have been fitted with either westinghouse or vacuum brake gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 The photo above is a 1923 spec. wagon. I agree that the Charles Roberts 1907 7 planker is probably the 'safest' choice. But without more info., it's hard to be sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 I forgot to thank you all for your inputs!! I just ordered a Charles Roberts 1907 7 planker from slaters and I wanted to ask about the etchings for the interiors from MMP. Are they worth for detailing the wagons in the inside? I intend to make three so a three pack from MMP is just right for me..... Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I forgot to thank you all for your inputs!! I just ordered a Charles Roberts 1907 7 planker from slaters and I wanted to ask about the etchings for the interiors from MMP. Are they worth for detailing the wagons in the inside? I intend to make three so a three pack from MMP is just right for me..... Cheers Andreas Hi Andreas, 7mmMick of this parish has used them to great effect HERE I have a set myself and all the underframe detailing but I haven't got around to using them yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 Hi Rob, thanks for your answer. Sadly I cannot see the link but I believe your word as I have been keeping track of your modelling activities. I will order a set Now I only need to decide on the livery as not colour data exist.....probably brown with black underframe or green and black.....but it is still too early for such a decision... Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Sorry Andreas, the photo is hosted on another forum (Western Thunder) and thinking about it, I suspect that you would need to be a member to view it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Brown or grey bodies were fairly standard, although green or black may have been the colour. Typically, the ironwork would have been painted black. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Hi Martin, The question is how they were painted in Greece...hm...but thanks again. Probably they were not repainted when they came...I ll think about it. Internal detail fret was ordered from MMP...the fun can begin after the 28th as I will finish with my thesis and come back from short holidays during Christmas....I hope the stuff have arrived by then. Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Going back over this slightly, I'd suggest that they were ex-ROD wagons. The UK Government was left with a large surplus at the end of the Great War. Most of the wagons built specifically for them were sold to Belgium and formed the nucleus of the Tran Ferry stock when that service was launched in 1924. From the OP's point of view the good news is that the Slaters' mineral open is the closest starting point. There's a decent picture (in fact the only picture I think I've ever seen) about a third of the way down th epage here. Some of these were built with a platform for a brakeman. I'd love to see a picture of one of those. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Hi jwealleans, Wow! What a picture! Thanks for the informations! Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 It is highly probably that the wagons sent to Greece were those ex-ROD ones. I think that the Slaters kit would be the best basis for your models but also fitted wth through pipring for brakes and the longer continental style buffers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Exactly how this one was done in 4mm. Johann van Balbergh did one in 7mm exactly as we're suggesting the OP does, but the detail seems to have vanished from the 'net. If you follow the very bottom link on the page I linked to, then the link to 'Cabusart', they're visible in they very last picture on the page. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Hi Jonathan, I have seen you excellent work on ferry wagons. Take a look at this topic. I do not know if it is you era but these Wagons seem to have been coming to the UK from Greece. http://balkanmodels.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=212 Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Hi Andreas, Thanks for pointing me to that. The poster is Tim Hills, who supplied a great deal of my source material when I first started building ferry wagons. The Italian pattern vans were the first I built. I have a copy of that picture of the Greek van in Train Ferries of Western Europeby Ransome-Wallis. We have never been able to confirm what the traffic to the UK was, although we guess it was fruit of some kind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 The poster is Tim Hills, who supplied a great deal of my source material when I first started building ferry wagons. The otalian [pattern vans were the first I built. Yep Tim, we exchanged a couple of email with Tim more concerning CIWL coaches and he was interested for some decals of Greek fast passenger coaches from 1937 that you can adapt from Roco and Liliput models. Really helpful chap!!!!! Can you please send me the links for your topics about building the ferry wagons (not only the open ones)....I saw them somewhere but I could not track them down.....you can also send me a PM. Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Hi Andreas, My new workbench thread starts here, with an index. The original thread (in the archive) is here. The discussion on ferry wagons started here. You might also be interested in this chap, who built a model of the ferry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 It is unbelievable, I talked with a friend in Greece last week that has an idea of British prototype because he studied in the UK and explained him about the open wagons...yesterday he send me an email with a picture attached. The wagon in the middle towards the low end of the picture is definetely what I was looking for. To me it looks like a Robert Charles 7 plank with side doors. This picture was taken in the "old" station of Thessaloniki at around 1918 probably and belong to the collection of the history department of the French defence ministry (I think.....that is correct). These people on the left side are soldiers as Thessaloniki was a major base of the allied forces during WWI because it was very near the other Balkan countries and has/had an extesive railway network with port infastructure. This means though that these wagons probably came with the ROD supplies (together with the Dean Goods???) and stayed there after WWI and some (or all?) were still in service in 1933. Interesting...ha? I am curretly building one of Slaters with the MMP interiors and Bill Bedford sprung W irons...pictures will follow. Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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