slilley Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 The Class 47 Preservation Project Archive has recently acquired a photo of a Black 5 with a coal weighing tender taken around 1964. The loco has a Stanier boiler ie the separate top feed is close to the dome rather than further forwards as on the Ivatt "version". Any ideas which loco or locos were running with such a tender in the Carlisle area at that time? Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2014 This picture shows 45081 with one after withdrawn in 1965. https://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/13544846485 It was a Kingmoor and upperby loco for most of its life i believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2014 And another one in the North West https://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/8255903450 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) The Class 47 Preservation Project Archive has recently acquired a photo of a Black 5 with a coal weighing tender taken around 1964. The loco has a Stanier boiler ie the separate top feed is close to the dome rather than further forwards as on the Ivatt "version". Any ideas which loco or locos were running with such a tender in the Carlisle area at that time? Simon Simon, I think the engine in your picture is probably 44677. It was a Kingmoor engine at that time, and fits your description - https://www.flickr.com/photos/52467480@N08/6435903435/in/photolist-aNHFSk-aNHG2g-ecZhZo I don't think it will be 45081, as suggested above, for this reason - the self-weighing tenders didn't carry as much coal as regular tenders, and it appears they may have been swapped with tenders of withdrawn engines and scrapped with those engines. (There is a picture of one attached to a withdrawn 'Jubilee', and AFAIK, no 'Jubilee' ever ran in service with one.) I've not seen any record of 45081 running in service with a self-weighing tender and when it was pictured with the self-weighing tender at Cowlairs, it had already been withdrawn from Upperby shed in October 1965. 44677 ran with a regular tender in 1966-67. I think 45081 and 44677 swapped tenders after 45081 was withdrawn. Other Black 5s that I know had self-weighing tenders about that time either had Ivatt-type boilers (44697 and 44986), or were shedded in places from which it wasn't likely (though not impossible) that they would get to Carlisle (45298 in various North Wales sheds). 44971 had had a self-weighing tender, but I don't know if it still had it in 1964/5, and it was a Mold Junction engine, so not too likely to turn up in Carlisle. So, overall, I think the engine in your picture will be 44677 of Kingmoor shed. Edited October 4, 2014 by pH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) The second Flickr picture is 44697 by the smokebox plate. The description appears incorrect as 44697 spent a lot of its time at Newton Heath. The shed plate would probably bear this out, as that depot became 9D in 1963, and I have seen a picture of it with a self weighing tender heading through Preston. Edited October 4, 2014 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) It's 44697 by the smokebox plate. Sorry, I realise that I wasn't clear in my previous post. The 'picture' I was referring to there was the photograph mentioned in the original post. I haven't seen it, but was trying to reason which engine it was likely to be from pictures available in Flickr and information in previous topics on here dealing with self-weighing tenders. I agree with you that the engine in the second picture you linked to is 44697 of Newton Heath. (I've edited my previous post to quote the post I was referring to.) Edited October 4, 2014 by pH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckdancer Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Top feed close to dome - 45298/45081 Top feed well away from dome - 44697/44986 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stentor Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Please forgive my ignorance here but what was the idea behind self weighing tenders? Given that the water and coal storage on a tender is pretty finite and that their weights per ton are known why would valuable space be sacrificed for weighing equipment? Was it specific to one region as these examples are former LMS? Fascinating subject, any insight appreciated. Stentor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
benachie Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 All regions had them to different designs, introduced in the late 40s to enable accurate measurement of coal use on various routes with varying grades of coal. After a year or two they were just used as ordinary tenders sometimes with some or all of the weighing equipment removed. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 Thanks for the replies so far everyone. I am now able to attach a scan of the photo, not the best quality I am afraid. It appears that the first four numbers could be 4498, cant make out the last one, so any help would be most gratefully received. Also if you can confirm the location that would be great. Thanks you for your help. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I think this is 44986, and it is standing in Platform 5, one of the east-side, south-end bays at Carlisle Citadel. Obviously, I didn't dig deep enough before I wrote my previous post above. Digging further - from photographs, 44986 lost its self-weighing tender some time between July 1961 and July 1964. Also, it was transfered to Carlisle Kingmoor at some time between July 1962 and the end of January 1963. So it is quite possible that it could have been in Citadel, with a self-weighing tender, around 1962-64. The position of the top feed is a bit more of a puzzle. 44986 did have a 'rearward' position of the top feed, and a self-weighing tender, at nationalisation. But your picture was taken after the removal of Citadel's overall roof, so it's not from that time. 44986 definitely had a 'forward' top feed in the early 1960s, up to July 1961 at least - http://www.6g.nwrail.org.uk/coltas030fin.jpg , but appears to have a 'rearward' one in July 1964, though that picture isn't completely clear - http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v110/p691979149-3.jpg So, can I revise what I said earlier? I think the engine in your picture is 44986 of Kingmoor shed, at the south end of Carlisle Citadel some time in 1962-1964. (Edit - years should be numeric.) Edited October 12, 2014 by pH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 ScR engines were generally overhauled at St Rollox, and while English works tended to keep the same TYPE of boiler with an engine, Scottish works didn't. The top feed could migrate from one end of the boiler to the other following each Heavy repair, or even disappear altogether. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 ScR engines were generally overhauled at St Rollox, and while English works tended to keep the same TYPE of boiler with an engine, Scottish works didn't. The top feed could migrate from one end of the boiler to the other following each Heavy repair, or even disappear altogether. But 44986 was never a ScR engine! (However, I agree it could have gone to Glasgow works late on.) Does anyone have records of its works visits, specifically between 1961 and 1964? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Here are a couple of images: 44966 by robertcwp, on Flickr - I think this is actually 44986. 45298_NewtonHeath_23-8-59 by robertcwp, on Flickr Edited October 13, 2014 by robertcwp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Just to let everyone know on this mystery, the Class 47 Preservation Project Archive has acquired another negative of the same loco taken around the same time and it is identifiable as 44986. Thank you to everyone for their help with this, much appreciated. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 The Ian Allan book 'Locomotives In Detail No2, Stanier 4-6-0 Class 5', has a chapter that details the coal weighing tenders. 44986 was paired with tender number 10590 ( one of 4 coal-weighing) from 26/11/46 to 1/12/63. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Restarting an old topic, but I’ve never seen this combination before: https://davidheyscollection-static.myshopblocks.com/images/cm/4d59169b3cab274cb7471c0524ab3afb.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pobrien Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Black 5 44672 with self weighing tender on Dumfries Shed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Border Reiver Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 5 hours ago, Pobrien said: Black 5 44672 with self weighing tender on Dumfries Shed Kingmoor loco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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