Russell Saxton Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Does anyone have the exact dates for the fitting of Steam heat to the 27/1s and ETH to 27/2s in readiness for the Edinburgh-Glasgow push pull service started in May 1971? I'm trying to find whether any remained in green afterwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell Saxton Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 Locos concerned are 5374/80/6-8/91-7/9, 5401/3/4/7-13. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Radford Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 5374 & 5380 only became 27/1 not 27/2. Try this web site - it lists renumbering from 27/1 to 27/2 - presumably when fitted with ETH. http://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&type=D&id=25&page=fleet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted October 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2014 I haven't seen any exact dates, but the work started in September 1970. All the locos converted, bar 5374, were already steam-heated. The 12 that went to Derby Works for the diesel generator ETH set to be fitted in place of the boiler (the sub-class that ultimately became 27/2) would have been unlikely to have kept green IMO. The other sub-class of 12 (eventually 27/1) were dealt with at Glasgow Works. As the works were less involved for this group, it might be possible that one escaped repainting, but I would say still pretty unlikely considering the importance of this Inter-City service. To complicate things further, I believe only 14 locos were converted originally, and then another 10 after the service started - I don't know how this split down between the two variants. Photos of the locos pre-TOPS and in the 27113-124 batch are pretty scarce. This page has about the best detailed information, but nothing on liveries. http://www.6lda28.com/shove.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell Saxton Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 Just found that myself, thanks though. It does answer my queries fairly well I think. I was puzzled at how 5380 remained in 2 tone green till Aug 1971 after the introduction and I know now it wasn't in the original scheme. The first 12 were done in Sept 1970-I assume all were repainted blue if they weren't already? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted October 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2014 Until reading through that page more thoroughly, I hadn't realised that the service was steam heated initially, with the move to complete ETH operation not happening until some time in 1973 or 1974. It is unclear whether the locos that went to Derby for dual-braking, push-pull fitting and ETH fitting, actually kept their boilers for a time, before going back to get the diesel generator set fitted later on. Here's 5391, one of the initial 6 "27/2" conversions, getting a diesel ETH set in June 1973 - 27201(5391)* by 33106, on Flickr So I would say the best chance of there being a Green push-pull fitted loco would come from the early Glasgow conversions - 5374, 5404, 5407, 5408, 5409, 5411, and 5413. None of these were fitted with the separate ETH generator set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted October 5, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 5, 2014 " It is unclear whether the locos that went to Derby for dual-braking, push-pull fitting and ETH fitting, actually kept their boilers for a time, before going back to get the diesel generator set fitted later on." a number of locos gained all the gubbins including the dummy ETH jumpers, as it had been decided that ETH was to be used - but not how it was to be provided. here's a link to a previous thread "class 27 push pulls 1970s" with lots of info and pics (i've linked to a 1971 pic of 5393 with ETH jumper): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57319-class-27-push-pulls-1970s/page-3&do=findComment&comment=713812 can't remember for definite if any livery info comes up (apologies - got this far and broadband is playing up rotten) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted October 6, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 6, 2014 Ta, the photo taken in October 1971 of 5393 shows it still had the steam pipe on the buffer beam, so safe to assume the boiler was kept in situ. I suppose that means there ought to be some 1971-73 shots of Push-Pull trains with leaking steam, but I can't recall seeing any....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I am sure I have seen a photograph somewhere of a green class 25 on a push pull, 25s and 37s were pressed into service when there was a shortage of 27s Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Am I right in thinking that the coach sets were modified with through Blue-Star wiring so any Blue-star multiple working fitted loco could potentially have been used? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vin Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Am I right in thinking that the coach sets were modified with through Blue-Star wiring so any Blue-star multiple working fitted loco could potentially have been used? Yeah that's right. The modern equivalent was the set used by Arriva in the early 2000's for the Harrogate to Leeds top and tail loco hauled. The reason for a dedicated pool of locos was the fire alarm system was modified so the rear loco sets off the alarms in the driving cab. Their were probably other modifications as well, such as to the braking system on an intensive high speed service. Maintenance schedules would be different compared to the rest of the class. As most of the class 27's weren't used on high speed/ high mileage turns. Vin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted October 7, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2014 The coaches also had the control air pipes as well as the blue star jumpers. This pic from Brian Daniels‘ Flickr is one of the very few I've seen which shows them at all: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5837144002/in/set-72157626969809416 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 7, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2014 Ta, the photo taken in October 1971 of 5393 shows it still had the steam pipe on the buffer beam, so safe to assume the boiler was kept in situ. I suppose that means there ought to be some 1971-73 shots of Push-Pull trains with leaking steam, but I can't recall seeing any....... Would they have still had a through steam pipe so that they could be double headed with a train heating boiler fitted loco hauling steam heated coaches? I know they chances were slim but it might have happened. Many non boiler fitted locos, class 15s, 20s, 25s etc. had steam through pipes when built, these seem to have been removed in the 70s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 The coaches also had the control air pipes as well as the blue star jumpers. This pic from Brian Daniels‘ Flickr is one of the very few I've seen which shows them at all: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5837144002/in/set-72157626969809416 You can also see in this shot that the bogies have disc brakes, not the tread brakes that were standard for most B4 bogies. BR Research made good use of these vehicles - or at least the bogies from them - as make-up vehicles in test trains to get the brake performance of the often short trains up to acceptable levels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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