hayfield Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Martin Do you have a copy of Gordon's 00sf turnout diagram that can be posted on here, would really help some to see it visually Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2015 Martin Do you have a copy of Gordon's 00sf turnout diagram that can be posted on here, would really help some to see it visually Hi John, Sorry I don't know which one you mean? May be better to ask Gordon? I have this one which shows different turnout parts in different colours: I believe Gordon uses 16.2mm gauge only within the area of the V-crossings (frogs) and 16.5mm elsewhere. That's ok for plain turnouts, but doesn't work very well for diamond-crossings and complex formations. Generally for 00-SF I would suggest using 16.2mm throughout, easing out to 16.5mm only over the last couple of timbers where 16.5mm flexi-track will be attached. I hesitate to post this below again for the 83rd time, but here we go: A is the check gauge. It is the most critical dimension in pointwork. If this dimension is too small, wheels running from left to right can hit the nose of the vee and very likely derail, or at least bump. If this dimension is too large, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the check rail. To make sure it's correct, the check rail is set using check gauge tools. For 00-SF and 00-BF this dimension should be 15.2mm. You can use the same check gauge tools for both these standards (they are both running the same wheels). B is the crossing flangeway gap. It's also important. If this dimension is too small, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the wing rail. If this dimension is too large, the gap in front of the nose of the vee will be too wide, and the wheels may drop into it with a bump. This gap is set using a small piece of metal shim called a crossing flangeway gauge shim. For 00-SF it should be 1.0mm thick. For 00-BF it should be 1.3mm thick. C is the track gauge. It shouldn't be less than the specified dimension, but it can be wider. It is often widened on sharply curved track to ease the running of long-wheelbase vehicles. The track gauge is normally set using roller gauge tools, or alternatively using a 3-point gauge tool, which automatically widens the track gauge on sharp curves. For 00-SF this dimension shouldn't be less than 16.2mm. For 00-BF it is normally 16.5mm. D is the check rail gap. The width of this gap doesn't matter a damn, providing it is wider than the wheel flanges. It's whatever you end up with after setting A and C correctly. But where the check rail is combined with a wing rail in complex formations (i.e. in parallel-wing V-crossings) it must be the same as B. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Do you mean this one….:-) OK, I followed Martin's advice and went down the 00-SF route on my own layout, Eastwood Town. I took a while to be convinced as it just seemed another stack of changes for no obvious benefit. Now I wouldn't go down any other route and I'm totally convinced that it is the best solution by far for running 00 RTR stock, kit built loco's with Markits/Romford wheels and finally the best of all, Ultrascale wheels. One set of track standards that will take everything…. …and it looks good for 00 track. Not P4, but up there with the best of 00…. This is the diagram John is referring to. Please note the ends of the turnout are 16.5mm gauge and will line up correctly to standard 00 16.5mm track. The reduced track gauge of 16.2mm is only in the common crossing area and cannot be seen unless you have A1 eyesight and even then, you were specifically looking for any gauge narrowing. The reduction in gauge is just 6 thousands of an inch each side…. Edit: Just seen Martins post and totally agree. If I'm building a complex formation such as the one shown, I would build all the crossings and interconnecting rails to 16.2mm gauge and only widen out to 16.5mm where it needed to interface with plain track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Martin Thanks I think your diagrams will make things much clearer, as it clearly shows the areas we have discussed, and yes open the gauge back up to 00 where it joins 00 gauge flexi track, keep to 00sf standards through complexes Gordon Thank you, that's the diagram I was referring to. I have now both saved and printed it as it explains the method so simply. Super bit of track building and not a chair in sight !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Finally found the gauge pic I have been looking for, for ages... These are the correct gauges for 00-SF. Left to Right. Two 16.2mm gauges for 00-SF plain track and the 16.2mm elements of a turnout. Two 1mm shims for setting the correct 1mm gap between the stock rails and the check rails and setting the correct position of the wing rails from the crossing vee. Two check rail gauges for setting the correct position of the check rails to the wing rails. My order of build is as follows: Construct the vee. Set both wing rails. Set both check rails. Add both stock rails. Add both moveable point blades. Others build in a different sequence, which is fine, but to me the critical parts are the vee/wing rail/check rail. Get those right and the rest is easy…. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2015 Hi Gordon, You left out the 20p coin. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Can someone else please ask about the 20p coin so I dont have to Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2015 Can someone else please ask about the 20p coin so I don't have to Hi, When setting the moving switch blades, the thickness of a 20p coin (1.75mm) is used to set the amount of movement of the tie-bar. i.e. when one switch blade is closed against the stock rail, the tip of the opposite open blade is that far open from the stock rail. The prototype dimension is 4.1/4" (1.4mm scale), but a wider opening is needed for 00 and EM, to ensure that there is a 1.0mm clear flangeway all along behind the open switch blade. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Completely forgot the 20p coin…. Please note it needs to be dated 2006 for 00-SF. After 2006 is OK for 00 Intermediate, but 00 Finescale needs to be dated 2002….. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2015 Here's a picture: Shrewsbury 1978 Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Important Please note when you are building track with Bullhead rail, it is asymmetric in section and the more bulbous shape is the part of the rail that the wheel sits on, so should go at the top. It's very easy to make track with the rail upside down, so please check the orientation carefully. How do I know?….Don't ask.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2015 It's very easy to make track with the rail upside down, so please check the orientation carefully. A useful tip is to press the end of the rail into a bit of Blu-Tack on the bench. For some reason it is easier to see the outline in the impression left in the Blu-Tack than by looking at the rail itself. At least it is for me. When it's upside down it won't fit in the chairs... Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Important Please note when you are building track with Bullhead rail, it is asymmetric in section and the more bulbous shape is the part of the rail that the wheel sits on, so should go at the top. It's very easy to make track with the rail upside down, so please check the orientation carefully. How do I know?….Don't ask.. Been there, done that.......!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Hi Dave, You may not realise that it was you who started the present 00-SF trend, and that those who are delighted with the results owe you a vote of thanks. When I was building trackwork commercially 40 years ago, I supplied lots of 00-SF pointwork. In those days it was called "EM minus 2". Customers liked it and remarked how much more smoothly kit wheels would run on it than on other 00 tracks at the time. Not RTR wheels of course, and not round train-set curves. At that time RTR models were children's toys with much coarser wheels than they have now, and happily ran round 15" radius curves. Modellers would routinely change the RTR wheels to Romford, Jackson, Hambling's, and other makes of "scale 00" kit wheels. In those days there was no internet or web forums to spread the word, it was all word of mouth. Most of the talk about gauges and standards at that time was about EM and P4, some of it getting very heated. 00 was left out in the cold. When I first developed Templot I included "EM minus 2" in the gauge list, gave it the shorter name of 00-SF ("Special Fine"), and thought little more about it. Most 00 modellers were still using the traditional 00 BRMSB track, which I called 00-BF in Templot (also now called DOGA-Intermediate). Then you contacted me to say that you had found 00-SF in Templot, had built some track for your club using it, and that your RTR models were running fine on it. It was only then that I realised how much RTR wheels had improved in recent years. And more importantly, that we now had a track standard on which both RTR and kit-built models could run side by side with proper support through the crossings -- no more bumpy wheel drop with the narrower kit wheels. I mentioned this a few times on the forums and interest grew. But it was all thanks to you in the fist place. So thank you Dave, from everyone now using 00-SF. In the meantime DOGA threw a spanner in the works by publishing their DOGA-Fine standard, which continued the old tradition of requiring even modern RTR wheels to be modified. For some reason Brian Lewis at C&L decided to adopt it for his 00 products instead of 00-BF. The present owner of C&L, Pete Llewellyn, has now added 00-SF gauges to his range, but continued to supply Brian's original DOGA-Fine products at the same time, while still not supplying 00-BF (which is actually what the majority of 00 modellers are still using). Hence the present confusion and fog. Martin. Thanks for that, Martin. Everyone! Just blame me!, hahahaha! Dave the perpetrator Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Important Please note when you are building track with Bullhead rail, it is asymmetric in section and the more bulbous shape is the part of the rail that the wheel sits on, so should go at the top. It's very easy to make track with the rail upside down, so please check the orientation carefully. How do I know?….Don't ask.. How on earth would you know that?. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Can't be sure I will be building any more track. Unfortunately I'm a pensioner now and can't afford to keep a 20p aside for point blade spacing these days. :-)) Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2015 Regarding the 00-SF gauges from DCC Concepts I wrote: I haven't actually seen these gauges so I can only respond based on what is on the web site. Having had another look at the web site, I now see that for flat-bottom rail there is a separate gauge, described as having 1.1mm flangeways. That is not 00-SF. At 16.2mm track gauge and 1.1mm flangeway the check gauge will be only 15.1mm. Which means there is a risk of derailments because wheel flanges may hit the nose of the vee. See: http://www.dccconcepts.com/gauges-tools-amp-fasteners/dccconcepts-gauges/2-roller-gauges-w-handle-for-oo-sf-amp-fb-rail-code-75-83 So someone is likely to use this gauge, get poor results, and then announce to the world that 00-SF doesn't work. And the fog just gets thicker. The prototype rail head width is the same for both bullhead and flat-bottom rail -- 2.3/4", scaling to 0.92mm. So the same gauge should be usable for both. I'm at a loss to understand these flat-bottom gauges, and neither bullhead nor flat-bottom gauges have the rail width actually specified. Before buying gauges from anywhere it seems the only thing a buyer can do is ask for a copy of the manufacturing drawing to have any idea what he is actually getting. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The prototype rail head width is the same for both bullhead and flat-bottom rail -- 2.3/4", scaling to 0.92mm. So the same gauge should be usable for both. But the gauge is not being used on prototype rail, the model rails may not have accurate head widths. Colin Craig has info on that on his website and supplies different gauges depending on whose flat bottom rail is used. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2015 But the gauge is not being used on prototype rail, the model rails may not have accurate head widths. Colin Craig has info on that on his website and supplies different gauges depending on whose flat bottom rail is used. Sure, but there is no such information on the DCC Concepts web site. How do folks know what they are getting? Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Just a quick heads up on a simple Vee jig Three short lengths of aluminium, two with holes drilled in them and one cut and filed to shape Being 2 mm deep easy to see if the angle has been filed to the correct angle, however it needs a bit of thin material just to lift the rails above the Ali for soldering. A quick and simple solution Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Just a quick heads up on a simple Vee jig track15.jpeg Three short lengths of aluminium, two with holes drilled in them and one cut and filed to shape Being 2 mm deep easy to see if the angle has been filed to the correct angle, however it needs a bit of thin material just to lift the rails above the Ali for soldering. A quick and simple solution To use those for FB rail, it is well worth adding some slightly smaller, similar shaped, 0.020" material underneath. So the FB rail bases can slide under the edges and allow the rail heads to fit snugly.. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Wow, I just ask what I thought was a simple question, and it's gone all stratospheric, 4 pages and 90+ replies, to the point that C&L have sold out of OO-SF gauges!!!!!! Anyway, can I please ask, is this barrow crossing to OO-BF, OO-SF or DOGA Fine standards? And there's no way a 20p will stay in there, a house brick maybe!!! Thanks again for all the input, after this lot I do know just what I need. Just have to wait till C&L get another batch in!!! Jinty ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Wow, I just ask what I thought was a simple question, and it's gone all stratospheric, 4 pages and 90+ replies, to the point that C&L have sold out of OO-SF gauges!!!!!! Anyway, can I please ask, is this barrow crossing to OO-BF, OO-SF or DOGA Fine standards? :jester:And there's no way a 20p will stay in there, a house brick maybe!!! Shrewsbury point.jpgThanks again for all the input, after this lot I do know just what I need. Just have to wait till C&L get another batch in!!!Jinty ;-) I thought I was lucky ordering the last sets, but when the jiffy bag arrived it just contained the check rail gauges amd apology for the other being out of stock. Peter has them on order but is not sure how long they will take. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2015 4 pages and 90+ replies, to the point that C&L have sold out of OO-SF gauges!!!!!! On the other hand I see that there are 232 sets of DOGA-Fine gauges in stock, with a total sales value of £1,856. You can understand why Pete Llewellyn would want to continue supplying them. And of course they do have a use for 00-SF users, if you ignore the inner slots. The outer 16.5mm slots can be used where you want significant gauge-widening on very sharp curves (say below 21" radius), and where you want to widen to 16.5mm at the end of pointwork in order to attach 16.5mm flexi-track. And also for 00-BF users, if you ignore the inner slots. Use the outer 16.5mm slots for the running rails, use the 00-SF check gauges for the check rails, a 1.3mm shim for the crossing flangeways, and you are away. We do need C&L to stay in business. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (Important stuff not snipped ) We do need C&L to stay in business. Martin. And to keep supplying the great Exactoscale range of wheels, axles, bearings, sleeves and other finely machined parts, etc. Yeah! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.