Nick C

Just spotted this, an interesting project as I grew up near Horsham and so know the area well! 

I've got a half finished KESR station building if you're interested, left over from my aborted Plumtree Cross layout (which was also planned to be in that area...)

2 hours ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

 

Ah, OK - I think I understand now - I was looking at the wrong siding(s)! So, essentially, after having shunted the train ready for the outbound freight, you're coupling that up to the brake van from the SR train that's just arrived; so that you can 'steal' the brake van and put that now-completed outbound train back by the loco shed. Then the Ruston is parked somewhere out of the way, allowing the SR train to run around the train it had just hauled in, reversing back to the train that the Ruston had just assembled, and then taking that back to the fiddle yard ready for the Ruston to shunt the train already in the loop? Is that about right?

Exactly that! Avoids the main line loco and crew having to hang around any longer than necessary, especially at a time when labour and fuel were in short supply.

45 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

I must admit, you've lost me a bit here? I can only assume you're referring to the bottom, longer line of the run-around loop when you refer to 'the long siding'? Otherwise I can't see how that works as the Ruston would be hemmed in if it was in a siding. For what it's worth, as mentioned above, the spur would be short, so I'd probably assume there to be a suitable place nearby along the Fawley Branch for the SR engine to take refuge. Although now that I think about it, I don't think there was an engine shed or coal stage on the line... just a water tower at Hythe?!

By that I meant the line leading to the loco shed/traverser - with the Ruston on the left-hand end of the stock.

Given that the whole spur would probably be run under "local instructions", with no passenger movements, and under wartime conditions, I suspect you can probably do whatever you like, within reason, and provided all such movements stay 'within the gate' - which is of course offstage somewhere... Perhaps with a figure in suitable officer's uniform keeping a beady eye on things...

Propelling movements were far more acceptable in such situations than they would be now as well, especially on a short spur - you could quite feasibly have the SR loco propel the stock from the junction, possibly without a brake van at all.

I suspect in real life, there'd be some exchange sidings nearer the main line, and the SR loco would deposit the wagons there, for the MOD loco to collect, bring down to the yard, and shunt accordingly. Of course that's not so fun to operate! 

You wouldn't have lots of light engine moves, they're expensive. Perhaps a better scenario would be for the Ruston to have already assembled the outgoing wagons in the longer siding. When the SR train arrives, the Ruston runs out over the bridge, backs the outgoing train onto the brake van, hooks that on and returns the lot to the long siding. It uncouples, then gets out of the way so the SR loco can pick up the now-complete outgoing train. That then goes, leaving the Ruston to carry on shunting.

That looks a lot better IMHO - Having the hard the other side of the river gives it more of a reason for being there - a wartime addition to expand the yard. Having the boatsheds being more imposing looks good too.

The only bit that doesn't quite looks right (again in my opinion) is the short siding off the three-way point. I wonder if that might look better coming off the loop instead, and crossing the kickback siding in the same way the other one does? Would they have had a siding specifically for brakevans anyway? Complex pointwork such as tandem points is expensive and needs more maintenance, so would normally be avoided if possible. Maybe just shove the 'van into the loco shed road during shunting?

I've been watching a YouTube channel recently about a couple restoring a wooden WW2 boat - an ML harbour launch that was, as it happens, built in Lymington and used at D-Day - but even that "small" boat is still 72ft long and 15ft wide!

Well worth a watch if you want to get an idea of how such boats were constructed - https://www.youtube.com/c/ShipHappensUK

What's quite interesting is how different parts have fared with time - in general, the more recent parts added or modified during it's 1980s conversion to a yacht have suffered badly, wheras the original wartime bits are in much better condition...

Making the bridge, pillbox etc from brick makes sense to me - they wouldn't have shipped materials in from elsewhere if there was a brickwork right next door.

I wouldn't worry about the passenger service obstructing the yard, presumably the whole place is under MOD control anyway so it'd only be a worker's train at change of shift time. They probably wouldn't have bothered with a shelter either, just a basic platform...

How do boats get from the workshop into the water? If they're taken on wagons over the traverser, there then needs to be a siding with good access to either a crane or slip to offload them - and without going over the bridge to get there as they'd be too heavy (and probably out of gauge)

Not quite the right colour though, the average Solent tide is a manky grey rather than a nice warm tea brown. 

I was just looking at the used leaves wondering if they'd make a reasonable representation of seaweed though...

1 hour ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

As tea accounts for 99% of the liquid I drink, it's certainly an essential.
I love the Kitkat cubby hole idea! 😄 Have you got to the point where you can now fit multiple in; since choccy bars seem to be getting smaller and smaller?! (He says, having devoured a huge bar of Dairy Milk over the Christmas period!)

I'm now thinking if I can fit a small chocolate bar in one of the finished 'Beetles', or perhaps hollow out the brickworks building and hide some in there! 😆
Edit: Now that I think about it, the hards created for D-Day embarkation are chocolate bar shaped. The one at the front middle of the layout will be the same. Hmm....

Magazine of KitKats in the Boat Workshop, with a working crane to load them onto bolster wagons for delivery to the operating area?

There must be away to incorporate tea into the layout somewhere too, surely? He says, before getting up to make another pot...

That looks a lot better, IMHO.

16 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

With regards to putting a siding across the winch shed, I'm not sure how that would work. Presumably the winch cable would need to be fed under the track in a channel?

Hmm - I'd imagine the cable would just be run across the rails when needed. Looking around at a few on NLS/Britain from above there are plenty of slips (most, in fact) that don't have a winch shed at the top, so they must've either had a portable winch or run a cable across from somewhere else across the hardstanding. A few do have a capstan marked, so that might be a clue, while most of the ones I can find associated with boatbuilding yards have a big shed at the top (in which, presumably, the boats are built...). I can't find any with a siding across though, that must just be a figment of my imagination...

16 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

 

Hand-made trackwork - this is indeed something I had considered (I was instead expecting someone would comment on the fact I'll be using Code 100 - I've got a bunch of medium points and flexitrack leftover from a failed project!). The two flat crossings would indeed be 'scratchbuilt' - I've done it in 009 so I should be able to do it in OO gauge. The thought of making points however scares the daylights out of me! Yet, it is something recently that has intrigued me, I will admit. I may well be tempted, but it would be a huge undertaking; especially with a 3-way point needed! Though to be fair, you did say 'some' hand-built track...

It's not as hard as you might think (though I've only done it with bullhead - there'll be a lot more filing with code 100), especially for industrial track where most of the sleepers will be buried under hardstanding or grot. If you've done flat crossings then you've already done the hard bit - the common crossing with it's various checkrails and flangeways. I wouldn't try a three-way as a beginner though, use Peco for that!

It's even easier if you use the British Finescale kits, but they're all bullhead...

Looking at BB12 - I'd be tempted to move the loco shed slightly away from the workshop, to avoid the awkward sharp curve to get around the end of the traverser. Or perhaps swap the loco shed to the siding in front of the Nissen hut, and have what's currently the loco siding instead going across the top of the slipway, between it and the winch shed? - that'd allow delivery of materials directly to the slip.

Have you considered using some hand-made trackwork? That'd allow you to adjust the geometry of the pointwork more to make it flow better, for example where the line comes in from the swing bridge to the loop point, and the siding leading to the traverser. 

You might also want to make the river a bit wider at the back - given the swing bridge, it's presumably navigable, so would need to be wide enough to keep a decent depth at low water.

I've been planning a Southampton-ish dockside project myself, so been hunting around quite a bit for suitable research materiel!

8 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

That's the one. You know what - I think that's the exact image that I mentioned; it looks very familiar indeed! It was certainly a BfA photo, anyway; I know that because I was looking for pictures of Dibles Wharf at the time!

This one is good for Dibles Wharf: https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW020009

There's also a good map of it on the Southampton planning site: https://planningpublicaccess.southampton.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=5600064FUL - along with quite a few other buildings in that area suitable for my early 50s period, many being listed as they're rebuilds or replacements for war-damaged buildings in the area.

23 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Apologies, it seems I was wrong - it no longer exists. I must've seen an old image when I first started my research many months ago. This was the one I was thinking of (using your link to the NLS imagery): click - it's on the other side of the Itchen from the hard you pointed out. Which I believe is S4 on my drawn map. It's now a CEMEX concrete terminal. Note the 3 mooring dolphins in the water, plus a fourth in the intertidal zone. You can also clearly see the new concrete sections of roadway.

There's a good photo of that one (which I've got in my notes as Britannia Wharf, though really I think that name just refers to the older wharf immediately to the south) on Britain From Above - https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW020007

14 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

I believe there is a hard in Southampton still in existance (though I need to double-check),

This one? https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9041366,-1.3843257,218m/data=!3m1!1e3 Certainly shows on the post-war photos but not the pre-war map.

And in the course of looking for that, I've just found that the NLS have geo-referenced aerial photos of Southampton, taken between 1944 and 1950. Including this one: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.7&lat=50.90938&lon=-1.37900&layers=253&b=1 - showing a load of ships all laid up presumably awaiting disposal.

Very good reading, better researched than many professional histories I've read! Also relevant too, as I used to live in Southampton and so know the area well - there's plenty of bits still extant if you know where to look, as I think you've mentioned before.

Great to see such well thought out research - and timely for me, I've got a New Forest based layout plan bouncing around in my head...

On 14/01/2021 at 09:42, RedgateModels said:

German BR84 and BR85 were 2-10-2 tank engines, so maybe I should drop the extra pony wheel and shorten the coal space back to standard 4 size ......

 

(This is not what I'm going to do)

Or the Polish OKz32 - 2-10-2T built for a switchback line into the mountains (three reversals en-route making a tank loco much more practical as it didn't need turning).