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Bramble's Boatyard - Refining layout plans


SouthernRegionSteam

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Last blog entry, I showed a few of my latest designs - all drawn to scale; including one (BB12) which looked set to be, more or less, the final design. Throughout the comments on that post on RMweb, useful changes were suggested, and some implemented to form BB13. However, I'm going to skip straight to the later version (BB14), posting sketches and 3D designs, explaining what's good and what's bad, and explore ideas for further improvements, which will result in plans BB15 and BB15b Edit: And BB15c!

 

Let's start by comparing BB12 to BB14. If you're already seen the comments from the aforementioned RMweb link, then you can skip this section.

 

BB12%20-%20LABELLED.png

1532960968_BB14-LABELLEDTEMP.png.8d5a03e29dc9ee188ecc10856251621f.png

 

Here are the main differences:

 

  • Road/level crossing - the road on the left has mostly been removed; with only a gravel track for the brickworks remaining. As a result, the level crossing has also now disappeared, as has the bus shelter.
  • Bridge - you'll note that it now has a second, and smaller span - this time, a fixed one. Again, I'm currently undecided what form this will take; either metal beams, or a brick arch. The reason for this change is two-fold; firstly, to allow the riverbank to be wider and more to-scale, and secondly, to allow the bridge to be more of a focal point - enabling better views not just of the trains, but also the brickworks behind. I do like level crossings (and haven't modelled one before), but I feel this is the more sensible choice for the location. As a result, I could now slightly move the signal further from the scenic exit, and in the process, further draw viewers eyes away from the 'hole in the sky'! That's my thinking, anyway.
  • Pillbox - the bus shelter has been replaced by a Type 26 pillbox (probably brick to match the brickworks rather than the often-modelled concrete examples). No Wills pillbox here! I want it to be quite well camouflaged, if possible; just as they should be.
  • WWII defences - to provide further visual interest, and also to yet again firmly cement the layout as set during WWII, a line of anti-tank blocks have been added; right past the riverbank and into the tidal river. A brick arch will also allow me to add recesses into them to suggest holes that would be laced with explosives - mentioned in a past blog entry as a way of blowing up strategic crossing points should an invasion occur. Whilst this was something shown on Redbridge Wharf, it's also something uncovered during my research into defence structures such as the pillbox and anti-tank blocks.
  • 'Beetles' - moving further right, behind the signal box, a new concrete apron has appeared, and is complete with building materials to be used for the construction of the Beetles. I've also popped a loading gauge nearby, and moved the half-built Beetle beside the derrick crane where it makes more sense, and can be handled easier. The crane itself has been rotated slightly to better suit the location, and to allow it to reach more of the hardstanding.
  • Platform/halt - towards the front of the layout, the old wooden platform has been removed from the centre of loop, and my preferred halt design, the SR cast concrete 'trestle' has been built. This change enables a slightly longer platform with ramps on both ends, and, more importantly, the inclusion of the platform shelter. The only big downside is that passenger trains would now block the rest of the yard, and the carriage would need to be pushed a little to the right in order to run-around it. It also means only the back of the halt would be visible, which is a shame. However, removing the platform from the centre opens up the view a bit to the rest of the Beetle construction area and crane; so that is a positive aspect.
  • Adding another siding - further forward, the last obvious change is the inclusion of another point and siding. This turns the original wooden jetty siding into a tiny stub long enough only for the brake van. I was struggling to find somewhere sensible to park the brake van, and this seemed to be the best option; whilst also fixing the other issues I had with the jetty. For example, I was never truly happy with having an old wooden jetty right next to the 'new' concrete hard - it didn't really make any sense. Therefore, this original jetty* is now concrete, and a new wooden jetty (well, old, but newly positioned!) is where the additional line is; fed from another 'Y' point. Admittedly, this is another potentially contentious option; it'll be a balance between increasing operating potential, and keeping the scene balanced/fairly open. I do like though that this stub could be used by the travelling steam crane, should a brake van not be on the layout at any point.
    *A minor note; many drawn lines in the plan have now been fixed; the (now concrete) jetty no longer looks like it would obstruct the Hard - that was purely down to a wonky line on the latter.
  • Loco shed and refuelling point - both have now been moved! They are now, perhaps surprisingly, fed from the traverser. I realise this may seem rather odd, but it would remove the kinked track, and I figured that making the boat workshop narrower by one track would lead the way for a small area at the back where a tiny lean-to shed (really just a corrugated iron shelter with three walls) and an equally small refuelling point can now reside. That siding would be very short anyway, so it makes more sense to use it for a tiny 0-4-0 than it does a bogie bolster or similarly long-wheelbase wagon!
  • Concrete approach road - this has been simplified; after having rexamined photos of one built in Southampton. There are now larger slabs, and fewer curves. No more crazy paving!
  • Nissen hut - as it's a drawing office, and having seen photos of what these looked like, I've added 4 more dormers for more natural light.
  • Steam crane shed - this has been added behind the new jetty for two reasons; firstly, it is an unusual thing to model, and secondly, it creates a tall viewblocker. This separates the layout into two parts - the river area, and the boatyard.

 

Next steps

Having left this design for a couple of weeks, I came back to it a few days ago (27th Jan) to draw the '3D' sketch and check that the composition works. Whilst I'm very happy with some aspects, I have to admit, I'm not totally convinced by others!

 

However, let's start with the good!

 

The good

  • The bridge - despite originally 'eyeing-up' a skeletal metal structure for the additional span, I actually think the brick option was a wise choice, despite it being more unlikely given my intention to suggest that the railway was built for the war effort; the most likely construction material would instead have been precast concrete (as was used for practically everything on the Fawley Branch). I'm hoping that, whilst the adjacent brickworks would have ceased operations about 10 years prior, there would be enough bricks stashed nearby to warrant this construction method (as with the pillbox).
  • The brickworks - just behind the bridge, I'm also very happy with how the brickworks scene looks itself. I've recently found photos and drawings from a planning application, too; which will come in handy.
  • The area by the derrick crane - this is a particularly attractive scene; with the nissen hut set amongst the trees, the derrick crane obscuring sight lines nicely (as well as providing much needed use of height in the scene), and the 'Beetles' awaiting the tide to float them, with the third under construction.
  • The winch shed - another interesting scene that, whilst a bit cramped, has plenty of scope for detailing; and makes for a not-often modelled subject.

 

BB14%20-%203D-25sm.jpg

 

Above: If you can excuse the dodgy, variable scaling of my sketching (note that, aside from other mistakes, the wooden jetty is the wrong shape/length!), this '3D' sketch of BB14 shows interesting scenes that work well on their own, but together, not all of them 'gel' to the degree I would like:

BB14%20-%20PROBLEMS-26sm.jpg

Above: Good and bad parts of plan BB14. I'll explain the bad parts below:

 

The bad

  • The new platform - this just looks 'wrong' to me, and I still don't like seeing just the back of the platform; particularly the shelter. The added annoyance of having to push the coach back into the run-around loop is a further reason to rethink this option.
  • The steam crane shed - Whether it's the close proximity to the platform, or its location in general, for some reason I'm not keen on it. I do like that it forms a viewblocker, but I think the bit of wasteland between it and the wooden jetty in front that makes it look like it's in the wrong place? Hard to say why, exactly. Either way, I need to be careful not to fully obstruct the bridge cabin/signal box; which this shed is in danger of doing.
  • The concrete roadway  - I don't like two things; firstly, the brick store/office needs more screening to separate it from the nissen hut, and secondly, the way that this approach road leads the eye to the gated entrance is, to be honest, very underwhelming! Ideally, this sight line should end in an interesting scene or building; not a couple of normal wooden gates with the backscene a few centimetres behind. Which also leads us onto..
  • The hard - I like this scene, but it doesn't make sense to me that a hard like this temporary one would be built in an established boatyard for the war effort - it should already have a slipway (and no, the winch slipway doesn't quite count; as it is cramped and doesn't lead to a boatshed). It also occurred to me that using the hard would cause a lot of disruption to both the railway and the boatyard itself! This is annoying because the hard is one of the main features that I really feel needs to be included to tell the story of D-Day.
  • Extra jetty - I think I've tried to squeeze in too much? Less is more, after all!
  • The loco shed - It's an interesting idea, but having it accessed only via the traverser seems dodgy, as originally noted. The more I think about it, the less sense it makes!
  • The boatshed - It is far too cramped for my liking - it may just be the way I've sketched it, but it looks underimposing, far too condensed, and like it has been shoved into the corner.

    Possible solutions
  • Platform - First, I think the platform should probably be removed completely. Right from the start, I mentioned that I felt it would be unlikely for passenger trains to run into a boatyard. All but one of the platforms on the Marchwood Military Port are away from the jetty/port area itself; presumably for similar reasons. Whilst I did buy a carriage specifically for this layout, I can't seem to work in a suitable arrangement to use it. Bear in mind that it is also a non-corridor coach; so would require a platform at least one carriage in length. Perhaps one day I'll add another module to extend the run (or that 'Leape' layout) which can feature a station!
  • Steam crane shed - Like the platform, it might be worth removing this entirely. It would also free up a bit of space to swap things around.
  • Jetty - The wooden one should probably, again, be removed entirely; along with its track, of course!
  • Hard & approach road - One possible thing to trial is moving the hard to the brickworks; thus converting some of the gravel track to concrete. This will likely, however, require more space than is currently available? The bridge will also make it harder to see the hard.
  • The loco shed - Perhaps the crane shed should be abandoned in favour of this smaller structure?

 

Plan BB15

The next morning (after having had the heater on in the studio for 3 hours to actually make it habitable!), I opened XtrkCAD. Plan BB14 was duplicated simply by saving it immediately as a new file named BB15. The various 'scenes' were then moved off the 'baseboard' so that I can reuse them, and all the trackwork (except the bridge) deleted. This left me with a short bit of straight track and the baseboard shape; with a bunch of buildings, trees, scenery and such around the outside ready to be rearranged. I've learnt through this process that sometimes it can help to start afresh rather than try to shuffle things around with all the scenery in the way. Quite often, a blank page helps to make more drastic changes, and thus allows you to approach it from a different angle, quite literally in this case...


BB15%20-%20LABELLED.png

 

The first thing that needed to be trialled was to move the hard to somewhere near the brickworks corner. OK. As expected, that doesn't fit. Clearly, something has to move. As I only had the swing bridge track on the board, I decided to move it to the right, and rotate it by  a few degrees to give more space on the left hand end. I suddenly realised that the hard can now fit at the front of the layout on this end, at an angle; chosen as it's both aesthetically pleasing, and also to allow a sight line to the brickworks cottage beyond.

 

With the bridge track set in place, the structure itself can then be moved into place, along with the cabin/box and the pillbox. The brickworks can also be squeezed back into the top left, with the brick kiln moved a tiny bit to lessen the curvature of the river. Now the important bit; the rest of the track!

 

I'd be lying if I said this wasn't tricky. The problem mainly stems from having moved the bridge further right. This means that it's too tight to fit in two points before the baseboard join. Together with the more acute angle of the track, the result is a 3-way point with some fairly sharp curvature (about 2nd radius, I think?) on the lower part of the run-around loop. I decided to keep the loco shed at the top right of the plan, but is no longer accessed via the traverser. This means it is now at an angle compared to the boatshed; providing further visual interest.

 

By keeping all the buildings and scenes as separate drawings around the outside, I can now bring them in one by one, rotate them, modify them (where necessary), and form a pleasing arrangement. This wider left-hand end now means I can add my much loved level crossing back in; needed now that its approach road must cross the railway to pass in front of the hard. Across the river, the relocated winch shed scene sits on the area where the wooden jetty and crane shed used to be. As a result, the signal box is no longer obscured.

 

Elsewhere, on the far right front, a new, long slipway has appeared where the winch shed once stood; which now features a gabled boatshed similar to one that used to be at Husband's Shipyard, Cracknore Hard (adjacent to Marchwood Military Port). This also presented an opportunity to add travelling gantries across the headshunt between the two boatsheds for transferring small boats between road and rail. Ideally, they'd be wider for obvious reasons, but I have seen a photo of a similar arrangement; so that is good enough for me!

 

Plan BB15b

Whilst quite enamoured with BB15, I felt that the 3-way point created some quite sharp curvature. Of course, as there will no longer be a platform, and boatyards/shipyards would have featured tank engines shunting on sharp radius curves; it shouldn't really matter. Still, I thought I'd try to use more 'standard' track components:

 

BB15b%20-%20LABELLED.png


Above: The result is a better flow, although features more straight track than I would've liked. By moving the bridge very slightly back to the left and rotating it a touch, I could just about squeeze in two medium points before the baseboard join.

 

It also:

  • Adds a bit of space between the level crossing and the brickworks cottage.
  • Allows a second access route onto the traverser (which I was originally envisioning would be a place to park the brake van).
  • Allows the track below the hoists to be a bit straighter.
  • Allows extra space for a cute little office near the winch shed (I have a prototype in mind).


BB15B%20-%20PROPER%20PLAN-27sm.jpg

 

The quayside by the rescue launch has been brought forward a bit to accomodate the gentler radius of the loop; which itself is unfortunately a bit shorter than BB15. Oh, and I forgot to mention; the new backscene shape does have a reasoning behind it - but that is for another day.

 

So which do I prefer - BB15 or BB15b? The truth is, I'm not sure! I like some aspects of both; the flat crossing and longer loop in the first, but the less severe curves (that will likely cause fewer issues with uncoupling), and the added spot near the winch shed for a small office on the second.

 

Perhaps there's a way to have the best of both worlds - back to XtrkCAD!

 

Plan BB15c

I was actually intending that to be the signing off point of this entry, but I decided to have another go at rearranging the track! All but the bridge section and larger boatshed lines were removed, and I played around until coming up with the following:

 

BB15c%20-%20ANNOTATED.png

As I've added under the layout name, we now have the re-appearance of the 3-way point, but in a totally different place, once again. I tried to avoid using a Y point on the loop so that larger locomotives didn't have to traverse them, but as you can see, one was required to provide a smooth, gentle curve up to the traverser, whilst also forming the required angle for the rest of the loop. As mentioned, tank locos would be the order of the day anyway, so perhaps it's time to sell my older, larger tender locos!

 

I should, by the way, note that XtrkCAD, has some annoying quirks. Surprisingly, one is the auto-save. Usually a useful feature, but if you make a change and don't like it, an autosave will ruin everything - as you can only undo a  tiny number of steps! My advice is to work with layers, or save it as a new file before working on modifications.

 

As line drawings are quite hard to see on a screen, here's a coloured-in sketch version:

 

BB15c%20-%20DRAWN%20PLAN-28sm.jpg

Above: The resulting trackwork, I feel, flows very nicely. The wooden quay siding at the bottom has been lessened in curvature slightly, and we also have the flat crossing back. It may seem daft, but I just couldn't be without it - it somehow adds so much character; and I've certainly enjoyed operating Sandy Shores primarily because of its crossing. It also adds to the 'dockside aesthetic'; since such areas featured these in abundance! Another bonus of the crossing is that you can have a longer headshunt; instead of being restricted by the length available on the route to the loco shed. Elsewhere, the 3-way point is probably overkill considering one leg just leads to a stub to hold the brake van, but it is, I feel, a very useful (if not, crucial) addition when it comes to operating the layout.

 

Anyway, the development of this plan continued slightly whilst drawing the '3D' sketch. I'll be honest, the sketch is not at a particularly flattering angle (being so high up), and the perspective is a bit(!) off, but after probably 10+ hours of work, I ended up with this:

 

BB15c%20-%20FINAL%20SKETCHsmjpg.jpg

 

Above: The main difference is the swapping of the small travelling hoists for a large gantry crane. I've shown it with both a short and long gantry; so that the small area between the boatsheds can be utilised, but it does seem quite odd! I would imagine it would make more sense to have an internal gantry that spans both buildings; with at least one part of the exterior walls missing to accommodate it; but that would mean modelling all of the interior of both buildings. Nethertheless, I really like that the boatsheds/workshops have a much bigger presence now, and that the gantry crane provides plenty of viewblocking and unique sight lines. Hard to notice perhaps, but I've cut away part of the far wall of the closest boatshed to add further sightlines. It'll also force me to model the boatshed interior as it will be well-lit. A subtle change is the addition of wooden posts to the brick quay at the back (by the ;Beetles'). The final change is the removal of one of the derrick cranes. There were originally two because I wasn't sure which placement would be best. I think it makes more sense as drawn in the '3D' sketch; as the crane can now reach the railway siding as well.

 

 

In my eyes, the overall layout looks far more balanced than BB14, and in general I feel a lot more confident with every plan that gets drawn. Let me know what you think.

That'll do it for this blog entry - it's somehow become much longer than anticipated, again!
I was expecting BB14 to be the sole plan in this post, but as is the norm, felt there was plenty of room for improvement. As I'm sure there will be for BB15c, too...

 

...as such, I'm always happy and grateful for suggestions and feedback - those which have contributed so far have been incredibly helpful; so thank you.

 

All the best,
Jamie

N.B. I am writing up a post about layout design...slowly... but whether I feel it is good enough to finish/release it; well, we'll see!

 

Edited by SouthernRegionSteam

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  • RMweb Gold

That looks a lot better IMHO - Having the hard the other side of the river gives it more of a reason for being there - a wartime addition to expand the yard. Having the boatsheds being more imposing looks good too.

 

The only bit that doesn't quite looks right (again in my opinion) is the short siding off the three-way point. I wonder if that might look better coming off the loop instead, and crossing the kickback siding in the same way the other one does? Would they have had a siding specifically for brakevans anyway? Complex pointwork such as tandem points is expensive and needs more maintenance, so would normally be avoided if possible. Maybe just shove the 'van into the loco shed road during shunting?

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  • RMweb Gold
38 minutes ago, Nick C said:

That looks a lot better IMHO - Having the hard the other side of the river gives it more of a reason for being there - a wartime addition to expand the yard. Having the boatsheds being more imposing looks good too.


Thank you! Your previous comments about there being nowhere to launch ships certainly made me think; and as I didn't like the sight line that the rebuilt concrete roadway created up to the gates, along with the temporary hard itself making no sense in its previous position, I could see an opportunity to improve several aspects in one go. I'm much happier with the plan now. The imposing boatsheds/workshops also provide the impression of a much larger yard than is shown, which I think helps to justify the building of the bridge and railway itself. Now what would be cool is if I could motorise the large gantry crane, though let's see if I can make a working swingbridge, first!

 

46 minutes ago, Nick C said:

The only bit that doesn't quite looks right (again in my opinion) is the short siding off the three-way point. I wonder if that might look better coming off the loop instead, and crossing the kickback siding in the same way the other one does? Would they have had a siding specifically for brakevans anyway? Complex pointwork such as tandem points is expensive and needs more maintenance, so would normally be avoided if possible. Maybe just shove the 'van into the loco shed road during shunting?

 

Yes, it's bothering me, too - and I did try to add a point where you suggested before I resorted to the 3-way point, however it didn't fit due to the slight curvature of the loop. If I made handbuilt points it would be less of an issue, but as I said, I don't think I'm ready for that just yet!

However, your last sentence might just've solved the problem for me, thank you - I didn't think about that. It makes sense to do so, too, as the resident Ruston (which'll sit in the shed) will be the one to do most of the shunting. All except one other locomotive will be steam, so there's no need to access the shed - thus it being blocked by a parked brake van would be a non-issue. Incidentally, I imagined that the loco shed road/traverser road would not be used by SR locos at all, with a sign to that effect just before the flat crossing by the Beetle that's under construction.*


For variation, there are a couple of ways I would imagine operating the layout (albeit knowing little about rules and regs/general operating procedures!):

  1. An SR loco arrives into the bottom part of the loop, decouples, goes to the headshunt/loco release, runs light engine back into the fiddle yard via the second loop road. The Ruston then does all the shunting (parking the brake van in the loco road first). It can then form an outgoing train. Once finished, either it can reverse the entire train into the shed road to pick up the brake van, or it can park the brake van in the loco release/headshunt so that the SR engine can back into the wagons, and push them all the way back into the brake van. That last option seems a little overcomplicated, though!
  2. An SR loco arrives into the bottom part of the loop. The resident Ruston departs from the loco shed road, attaches to the brake van at the back of the first train, pulls it off and takes it back to the loco road, where it waits. The SR loco then shunts the front and kickback sidings as necessary, then heads off scene as a light engine. The Ruston can then do any remaining moves (such as shunting into/out of the workshop/traverser). One of the two brake van options discussed above can then be done.

*The only modification to this would be if the SR hauled train has wagons destined for the workshop. These would obviously have to be shunted by the Ruston due to the limited length available on the traverser. However, if it's just one wagon, I suppose the sign could instead be placed just before the traverser, and read "No SR locomotives are to use the traverser", and the wagon could be shunted by the SR loco onto the traverser, ready for the Ruston to take over once it leaves.

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  • RMweb Gold

I suspect in real life, there'd be some exchange sidings nearer the main line, and the SR loco would deposit the wagons there, for the MOD loco to collect, bring down to the yard, and shunt accordingly. Of course that's not so fun to operate! 

 

You wouldn't have lots of light engine moves, they're expensive. Perhaps a better scenario would be for the Ruston to have already assembled the outgoing wagons in the longer siding. When the SR train arrives, the Ruston runs out over the bridge, backs the outgoing train onto the brake van, hooks that on and returns the lot to the long siding. It uncouples, then gets out of the way so the SR loco can pick up the now-complete outgoing train. That then goes, leaving the Ruston to carry on shunting.

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  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, Nick C said:

I suspect in real life, there'd be some exchange sidings nearer the main line, and the SR loco would deposit the wagons there, for the MOD loco to collect, bring down to the yard, and shunt accordingly. Of course that's not so fun to operate! 

 

That is very true - exchange sidings would be the likely norm - as at Marchwood Military Port; but as you say, it doesn't make for particularly exciting operations! Exchange sidings are also typically quite large, from what I've seen, at least. I'll be honest, I'm still a little unsure as to the logistics in terms of who would own/run the boatyard railway. Local boatyards were mainly requisitioned for the war effort, but I'm not entirely sure who by, and who then ran them.

 

In reality, I suspect that the site itself would either be run by the Admiralty or War Office (equivalent to Royal Navy or MoD today, respectively) - most likely the War Office. As the layout is also set along the Fawley Branch somewhere, it's not beyond the realms of possibilty that W.O./W.D. locos could've been used. However, I have always intended to run mainly SR stock on the layout; which obviously complicates matters! Happily, the Ruston I bought is in War Department green, so at least it fits in the general narrative.

In an ideal scenario, I'd like to imagine that the boatyard was requisitioned, expanded, newly rail-served, and that the stock using it would be SR tank locos; most likely from Southampton Dock. Though I'm not sure if there is a precedent for that. Eastleigh Works, as it was presumably always railway-owned, used SR stock despite building boats and other bits for the war at the time - but that is a slightly different scenario.

 

I might just say that;

The boatyard was requisitioned by the War Office, and then expanded during the run-up to war, in around 1942. A short rail spur (including a swing bridge over the navigable river) was built from the Fawley Branch to improve access, along with some upgrading of the local roads and the construction of a new hard ('Q3'). The once quiet boatyard became a hive of activity; building various craft and components, whilst also servicing small vessels. Rather than having to bring in larger locos from nearby Marchwood over SR rails, a 48DS Ruston was acquired via the War Department. Despite its dimunitive size, it was usually perfectly adequate in dealing with the required shunting maneouvres and workload. That said, rather unusually, SR tank locos were permitted to work the spur, subject to restrictions (i.e. no SR locos were to access any track including, and further beyond, the traverser). This unusual arrangement is likely due to the restricted nature of the site, and the short length of the spur; no suitable land was available to build exchange sidings. In effect, the run-around loop in the boatyard WAS the sum total of the exchange sidings! The outcome of this was that the driver of any SR loco to access the spur had to be accompanied by suitably trained War Office personnel from the ground frame at the junction with the Fawley Branch.

 

To my untrained eyes, it seems a fairly plausible situation? Probably not exactly the 'done' thing, but still... in lieu of better suggestions that'll be my take on it!

 

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

You wouldn't have lots of light engine moves, they're expensive. Perhaps a better scenario would be for the Ruston to have already assembled the outgoing wagons in the longer siding. When the SR train arrives, the Ruston runs out over the bridge, backs the outgoing train onto the brake van, hooks that on and returns the lot to the long siding. It uncouples, then gets out of the way so the SR loco can pick up the now-complete outgoing train. That then goes, leaving the Ruston to carry on shunting.


I must admit, you've lost me a bit here? I can only assume you're referring to the bottom, longer line of the run-around loop when you refer to 'the long siding'? Otherwise I can't see how that works as the Ruston would be hemmed in if it was in a siding. For what it's worth, as mentioned above, the spur would be short, so I'd probably assume there to be a suitable place nearby along the Fawley Branch for the SR engine to take refuge. Although now that I think about it, I don't think there was an engine shed or coal stage on the line... just a water tower at Hythe?!

Edited by SouthernRegionSteam
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  • RMweb Gold
45 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

I must admit, you've lost me a bit here? I can only assume you're referring to the bottom, longer line of the run-around loop when you refer to 'the long siding'? Otherwise I can't see how that works as the Ruston would be hemmed in if it was in a siding. For what it's worth, as mentioned above, the spur would be short, so I'd probably assume there to be a suitable place nearby along the Fawley Branch for the SR engine to take refuge. Although now that I think about it, I don't think there was an engine shed or coal stage on the line... just a water tower at Hythe?!

By that I meant the line leading to the loco shed/traverser - with the Ruston on the left-hand end of the stock.

 

Given that the whole spur would probably be run under "local instructions", with no passenger movements, and under wartime conditions, I suspect you can probably do whatever you like, within reason, and provided all such movements stay 'within the gate' - which is of course offstage somewhere... Perhaps with a figure in suitable officer's uniform keeping a beady eye on things...

 

Propelling movements were far more acceptable in such situations than they would be now as well, especially on a short spur - you could quite feasibly have the SR loco propel the stock from the junction, possibly without a brake van at all.

Edited by Nick C
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  • RMweb Gold
21 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Given that the whole spur would probably be run under "local instructions", with no passenger movements, and under wartime conditions, I suspect you can probably do whatever you like, within reason, and provided all such movements stay 'within the gate' - which is of course offstage somewhere... Perhaps with a figure in suitable officer's uniform keeping a beady eye on things...

 

Ah, OK - I think I understand now - I was looking at the wrong siding(s)! So, essentially, after having shunted the train ready for the outbound freight, you're coupling that up to the brake van from the SR train that's just arrived; so that you can 'steal' the brake van and put that now-completed outbound train back by the loco shed. Then the Ruston is parked somewhere out of the way, allowing the SR train to run around the train it had just hauled in, reversing back to the train that the Ruston had just assembled, and then taking that back to the fiddle yard ready for the Ruston to shunt the train already in the loop? Is that about right?

 

Gosh it gets confusing; I should've given the sidings each a number for people to reference if they needed to, as it becomes hard to explain what you mean without it becoming a long paragraph of descriptors! 

 

24 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Propelling movements were far more acceptable in such situations than they would be now as well, especially on a short spur - you could quite feasibly have the SR loco propel the stock from the junction, possibly without a brake van at all.

 

Interesting thought about the propelling move, too. That's another thing I hadn't considered. I suppose it depends on how much shunting I feel like doing at the time!
 

Many thanks for all the help so far, Nick!

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2 hours ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

 

Ah, OK - I think I understand now - I was looking at the wrong siding(s)! So, essentially, after having shunted the train ready for the outbound freight, you're coupling that up to the brake van from the SR train that's just arrived; so that you can 'steal' the brake van and put that now-completed outbound train back by the loco shed. Then the Ruston is parked somewhere out of the way, allowing the SR train to run around the train it had just hauled in, reversing back to the train that the Ruston had just assembled, and then taking that back to the fiddle yard ready for the Ruston to shunt the train already in the loop? Is that about right?

Exactly that! Avoids the main line loco and crew having to hang around any longer than necessary, especially at a time when labour and fuel were in short supply.

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