Ray H

And you frequent the web? A thought on the windows Andy. I believe you're having opening windows. Can you fit a removable (plastic) glazed panel over the whole window frame in the winter but have it either hinged or removable so that you can have some air in the summer? Presumably you'll still be able to reach over any backscene to open the windows. I'd also consider having some form of net screening to go over the door opening to allow you to have the door open and yet keep the insects out during the warmer weather when you may not want the windows open. It will also add a little security because it will be harder for people to see what's going on in the shed when looking down the drive. I like the idea of the flat ceiling. Add a trap door and you could possibly use that area to store you empty stock boxes.

Mike I've done it at last. You were up to page 52 when I started reading through this thread - I'm not a fast reader! It soon went to 53 pages and I've been pacing myself against that number for several days only to find this morning that you'd filled another but I've finally made it so will be watching more routinely henceforth. I have to say that it has been a brilliant story and thread - the layout's not bad either. Thanks.

Look at that driveway, just right for an extension! Bet you've already thought about that. I've got a lot of space outside my railway room. Trouble is it's 8ft off the deck!

You haven't got time for that, there's a layout to build. Bet you're glad you can make a start at last even if you have to take it slowly - please do take it slowly for your own sake.

Not even if you turn around? P.S. Good luck with today's er*ction!

Who is going to be the first to tell him that it should have been spelt . . . . . . .?

Do you mean the larger than life version where they're holding RMweb Live this weekend? Last seen in the Coventry area with the empties in his hand. Dee must have him well trained as he had cleared the table.

Without wishing to hijack Andy's thread even more, I found B&Q charge about three times what Bullers do and postage isn't that unreasonable. Beware the Buller's price excludes VAT I accept that there are limits to using traversers - a motorised one would be brilliant (hint) - insomuch as the running lines need to be brought to the front of the board as indicated but you then have corner space for spurs to leave spare stock on and all the sidings are the same length. You also save a fortune on turnouts. For a ten through road fiddle yard you need 18 points (and motors?) and possibly another four (and motors) if you want to add a crossover at each end. That said, I still have operational reservations about having one with a one person operated layout where you need to operate the traverser for every train change and on a single track layout with a passing station you're potentially doing that at the same time as you're trying to cross trains on the scenic section. Anyway, enough from me on this subject and apologies to Andy once more. People can PM me if they want any more info. Mind you this incursion into Andy's patch is helping to increase the page count before any trains run and I reckon that he may still manage 100 pages on this thread before that eventful day.

Try these. You can get them in B&Q but Buller's are a lot, lot cheaper (no connection, satisfied customer, and all that) I tend to mount them horizontal not vertical. The front does tend to droop a little but not too alarmingly. Here's a picture of mine almost fully loaded and in the closed position. The baseboard is effectively turned upside down - so the top becomes the bottom - to hold everything square. I screw one side of the runner to the underside of the traverser table - which ultimately also slides on the edge of the vertical baseboard supports - and screw the other part of the runner to a piece of timber that is the right thickness to rest on the floor of the baseboard, the timber being screwed to the floor from underneath. Hold the front page, pictures of the way I actually did it (not the way I thought I did it) will follow in a few minutes. Sorry. Here it is before I bought too much rolling stock - only joking. This is it after I had built it and before I put all the stock I owned back on the layout, having taken it off to build the traverser! Here I've opened it to show the drawer runners in situ and screwed to the vertical baseboard transverse strengtheners. The gibberish I spouted above is how we plan to build the traversers at the club where the baseboards aren't so deep. The underside of the pictured traverser table has two transverse pieces of 44mm sq. softwood screwed to it and the drawer runners are screwed to the sides of that. You can see the base that helps to keep everything square. And finally and possibly not for the feint hearted, here it is in the fully open position with no support other than the drawer slides to the right. Any tilt downwards at the front edge is barely discernible despite the table having only 1½ tracks that are empty. Front and back edges of the table have a piece of aluminium angle screwed - more easily seen in the first of these three pictures. The one on the front edge doubles as something to pull & push the traverser back and forth with as well as a barrier to stop stock falling over the edge. The bulldog clips that can be seen hold my freight stock cards - the future and use of which is still being contemplated. The traverser table also rests/rubs on the top edges of the vertical plywood cross members so is supported when closed or partly closed. Hope that helps, sorry for any earlier confusion and apologies for muscling in on Andy's pitch again.

Thanks I thought I remembered you saying you were hoping for about ten roads in the fiddle yard. You'll know that I've got a ten road traverser albeit that two roads are dedicated to the branch. You score over me though because some of your roads are long enough for two trains. I could do that but it would mean only running DMUs. I could potentially save another road because I have removable coal loads. However, my problem is that there were loaded coal trains in both directions over the line between Bletchley & Oxford and from the one aged timetable that I have seen an extract of, they seemed to run almost as often as the passenger trains.

Andy You seem to be planning specific locos for each train type. How many types of train are you thinking of using and will each fiddle yard siding hold just one train?

Andy I believe shunting one train onto an adjacent running line for another to pass was reasonably common - that's what I recall they did at Quintinshill to name but one. You are actually spoilt for choice and could possibly shunt two consecutive down trains - one into the yard and one onto the up line - to allow a faster train to pass. That would certainly get the tongues wagging. I'm planning to shunt the odd train on Wynsloe Road to allow another to pass. I wonder if you may be stoking up a small problem looking at the lay of your point templates. I've no significant personal experience that I can recall but I'm sure some on this hallowed forum have advised against reverse curves and suggest a short length of straight track in between to minimise the risk of buffer locking when propelling. Is there any scope for separating the crossover/slip point from the first facing poinofft in the yard even if only by an inch or so especially if there's a high risk that you'll regularly be propelling off the up line?

The older pictures at least are bullhead rail, presumably in 60ft lengths. It isn't easy to see on the screen but it may just be possible to count the rail lengths in the printed pictures with the aid of a magnifying glass (to see) and your fingers (to count) - before anyone says they didn't know you could count with a magnifying glass! P.S. I still reckon there's a chance of 100 pages on this thread before a train runs on the layout. Keep it up lads.

Andy I wonder whether shortening the up end spur - i.e. stop it before the lifting flap (one less track over that join) would provide more of an operational challenge as you'd be limited in how many wagons you could move around, just like the real thing.

Apologies for my incorrect use of signal nomenclature - I must have spelt it right as the speel chicker didn't object - and thanks to Mike for putting me right. My knowledge goes back to doing a voluntary block signalling course in the (19) sixties and I thought the terms that I have previously used were how they were described then. Out of interest (with apologies to Andy for briefly stealing his thread) can you (Mike) advise when a stop signal is considered a home signal and when it is considered a starting signal? Was there latterly only one starting signal and all the rest were home signals? Nick is correct about the effective length of the "neck" being that between the stops and the first facing point in the yard. Only being able to shunt a few wagons at a time adds to the interest of the shunting puzzle. A sand drag/catch points is as much about preventing a loco/train starting up against a signal at danger from fouling the running line as it is about stopping runaway wagons rolling forward and fouling the running line. I don't know the Bitton area (other than what's become apparent on this thread) so hadn't appreciated there was a gradient involved. I wonder if Andy proposes (intentionally) to incorporate the gradient - think of the fun shunting! - or whether he's going for the flat earth style layout.

Mick I think it highly unlikely that under normal circumstances a train would be allowed to approach on the up line with anything occupying that line at Bitton as the line from the home signal (No. 11) to the clearance point beyond it would not be clear. There would normally need to be a clear stretch of line for 440yds beyond the first stop signal before a train would be allowed to approach from the box in the rear. Nos. 11 and 10 signals are definitely not 440yds apart so any wagons left on the up line between those two signals would prevent a subsequent train being allowed to approach under normal signalling arrangements. It is possible that the crossover was at least 440 yards clear of signal No. 11 so an up train would be allowed to approach Bitton provided the up line was at least clear to just before the crossover. Any train that has been re-coupled on the up line near No. 10 signal would need both signals Nos. 10 & 9 clear before the train could continue to Warmley. I'm going to guess from Clive's measurements above that No. 9 signal was far enough in advance of the crossover for all but the longest train or cut of wagons to be accommodated on the up line without the need to get Warmley's permission to pass the signal and enter the section ahead, albeit if only briefly. This is another reason why I think the signal seen beyond the signal box is the down home rather than the up advanced starting signal.

It is difficult to say for certain but I think I can just detect the arm of the far signal pointing to the right as we look at it in the picture. This would make it the home signal. Also, if my assumptions are correct, No. 9 signal would be much further away to provide room for something to shunt beyond the crossover on the up line (before dropping back into the yard or onto the down line) without needing to be offered to and accepted by the box in advance - Warmley? - in order to do so. I suspect that the down staring signal (No.3) was originally cantilevered out over the track to provide better visibility of it as trains approached - it would have been obscured by the station building even more when it was beyond the bridge. The replacement isn't as high as I thought it might have been so that it would be visible over the building. However, the shape of the building roofs is such that I think it could be seen from far enough away for the driver to stop if the signal was at danger and said driver (with his train) would have been cautioned as they approached the home signal anyway. Technically I believe anything on the departure end of a platform was a starting signal (but Mike can probably confirm that) so yes, No. 10 was a starting signal, even if only the platform starting signal. No. 11 is the home signal "protecting" anything standing at the platform. Even though trains can't normally be accepted from the box in the rear with the line blocked between the home signal and the clearing point, it is thought better for the rear of a train to be brought inside a stop signal's protection than to leave it outside (i.e. not passed) the first stop signal at a station. One of the reasons for this was because a signalman cannot place the distant signal to danger until an approaching train has been seen and known to have passed that signal. Consequently, if a following train over-ran the starting signal at the box in the rear (without realising it in poor visibility) the driver might see a green aspect on the distant signal and believe he had a clear road when in fact he'd find the rear of the first train before he got to the first stop signal. As driver's were more accustomed to be looking for signal aspects rather than tail lamps - which might equally have gone out - having the train beyond the stop signal affords it more protection although admittedly not much. I don't profess to be anywhere near as knowledgeable as people like Mike on this subject (and may even be totally wrong) but I hope I have worded the explanation such that it is relatively easily understood and apologise profusely if my understanding is incorrect and confusing.

2 & 11 are both home signals, 3 & 10 as you surmise are starting signals and 9 is an advanced starting signal. Signals 3 & 9 are the signals that control entrance to the section ahead. I agree with omitting the two distant signals as they're too far off the layout. Note that signals 10 & 11 (at least) are lower quadrant from the pictures. The others (apart from 6 & 7) appear to be upper quadrant. There is an image of a cattle train dated 1933 in post 632. The down starting signal isn't visible in the picture on here, is it visible in the book?

One of the pictures posted earlier shows the outer home signal (in what I'm pretty certain is) almost adjacent to the crossover - I'll hunt back through the thread and see if I can find it. That's why I mentioned above that I thought the "headshunt" was so short - more like a sand drag than a headshunt. No. 6 signal may under these circumstances been an ordinary red disc. - see edit below The home signal would need to be at least 440 yards back from the crossover (as Mike has confirmed) to allow a train to approach whilst shunting was ongoing. Can I also re-iterate that there are no Outer home signals at Bitton, just plain home signals - there weren't enough levers in the frame according to your diagram. You'll note that whoever drew your plan of the (signal) layout has (intentionally) left gaps in the running lines between the distant signal and the home signal in both directions. This is normal procedure to indicate there is some distance between the two. I would have expected that there would have been a further gap between the home signal and the crossover if the two weren't close to each other. Edited to add:- The image in post 534 shows what I'm fairly certain is the down home signal in what I take to be a position right by the crossover. Interestingly, in what seems to be a difference to Andy's drawing, the down starter is clearly shown at the end of the platform in post 561, possibly even on the station side of the underbridge. The drawing shows the same signal cantilevered and beyond the bridge. With Andy's book suggesting there was a down outer home one begins to wonder if the drawing that Andy has dates from a different time to that which the book relates to? Also, having re-read and actually taken in the content of the caption to the picture in post 534, there is confirmation there that signals 6 & 7 were both yellow discs.

With apologies for deviating from Andy's thread, that is a brilliant site. Does anyone know of a similar site for the Midland Region out of Euston including branches?

There's no outer home signals. Each line has a distant, home and starter and the up line has an advance starter, the latter possibly to allow a loco running round to do so without fouling the section ahead. I think that either your book is wrong or the diagram you have relates to a different time period. The down home signal shown in your diagram an in at least one image on this thread is far too close to the crossover for a train to be allowed to approach Bitton (i.e. be accepted from Warmley) whilst the crossover/slip was in use. Likewise, once a train has been given permission to approach from Warmley movements across the /crossover/slip wouldn't be allowed as they would foul the overlap on the home signal, an overlap that must be kept clear until the train has passed or (possibly) is known to be at a stand at the home signal. However, it may just have been possible that a train could have been brought to a stand at the down home signal and then for a crossing move to be allowed although I think this unlikely for two reasons. Firstly, the down platform would need to be clear to allow a train to approach from Warmley anyway so there's no point (excuse the pun) in bringing the train to a halt at the home signal other than monmentarily if the section ahead isn't clear. Secondly, as the shunt moves were all controlled by handsignals there could be a risk that a train standing at the home signal may mistake the handsignal as applying to them when it is applying to a shunting move. I'll leave you to guess where that might lead.

Me again! I know I've touched on this before but if there are concerns about the space required to ease the curve on the single slip, replacing the first two turnouts in the yard with a double slip might just leave you the extra length to ease that curve without compromising on the siding lengths. It may not have been exactly like that at Bitton but you have evidence that it is prototypical elsewhere and you did say you were only basing the layout on Bitton not making a scale model of the place.

I'm going to stick my neck out here . . . . I am going to guess that the diagram that Andy has is a reasonably good representation scale wise and evidence in one earlier post serves to confirm this (in my mind). Consequently up (northbound?) trains would arrive, set back into the yard and shunt the yard using the up line as the "headshunt". What looks like a headshunt in the yard is, if the drawing is more or less to scale, little more than a loco's length. One of the earlier pictures suggests that No. 2 signal - the down home - is almost on top of the crossover and is as far as I can see, adjacent to the down line which would either put it beyond the stops of the (yard) "headshunt" or between the headshunt and running line. I'd suggest that if the signal needed to be in that position and the headshunt extended further back the home signal would have been on a bracket over the headshunt. On the basis of the above I could also envisage a case where the down line alongside the yard was used (perhaps occasionally) as somewhere to briefly leave the odd wagon during shunting. Down trains would have arrived at the platform and set back into the yard. The loco would then run round as indicated previously, again shunted the yard via the up line and finally regained the front of its train. Down trains wouldn't be allowed to leave Warmley whilst shunting was in progress - unless the shunting was suspended to allow the train from Warmley to be accepted, approach and pass. Up trains may have been permitted to approach if the up line was clear - shunting temporarily paused - and may have been allowed to sit in the platform to allow shunting to resume further along the up line but the up train would have to have been stationary before the shunting could re-commencee. I think it would be unlikely to be able to get the necessary (signal) overlap - 440 yards? - on a down outer home signal clear of the crossing to make it worth providing that signal and thus allow shunting to continue with trains approaching from Warmley. It's easy to see both how shunting could delay other trains unintentionally and why goods trains were often delayed excessively if their shunting kept getting interrupted when other trains needed to pass. And with that I shall duck back below the parapet until the flak has stopped.

It provides the only access between the yard and the up line and the only means of crossing from one running line to the other. If a down train wants to run round in the yard I suspect the only way that is allowed prototypically is for the loco to leave the yard at the down end, run wrong road in the back along the down line, cross to the up line and then reverse back into the yard. I doubt locos would be allowed to run onto the down line on the up side of the crossover. There's no other way of regaining the yard.

Does anyone know whether the Bachmann 6 pin decoder will fit. The instructions about conversion simply mention that the decoder needs to be compliant. Thanks