The Great Bear

Ok, so what kind of vehicles might they be if not called up as brake vans or siphons? Are they these just not called up as such?

I have a (silly, quite possibly) question regarding GWR train formations and nomenclature. What is a "Van"? I think I know "Van Third" is what anyone else would call a brake third etc. But what about a plan "Van"? What's prompted this is list of train formations in GWRJ 85 pg 270-273. Sometimes this refers to "Bk Van" so I guess that's a full brake, but some entries are just "Van". It lists out Siphons separately so what are these "Vans"? Some are listed as non corridor hence I am guessing these would be four wheeled, passenger rated vans? Some "Vans" aren't listed as being non-corridor so what might they be? For some trains this could also be the odd item of LMS or LNE stock in addition to or alternating with GW stuff. Sorry, the question isn't very well worded, but hopefully you can make sense of it and give me some help in decyphering this info! (Which is very useful in the context of my layout ) Thanks Jon

Could you sneak in a Dukedog? Depending on when you're modelling some were shedded at Didcot at least until nationalisation.

I think it would be interesting. I am a fan of Iain's writing, especially Mainlines in Modest Places. The Shaftsbury case study is my favourite bit of the Haynes book; pity the layout wasn't built.

Thanks - was going to ask same question. I was going to say a couple of results on ColourRail show 3500g tender post war - but I then realised these are of Lode Star in storage for preservation so don't suppose that counts. For my layout the couple of Oxford Stars post war GW wouldn't be amiss - Morning Star and The British Monarch. Former had elbow pipes fitted in '46 so my plan is to relivery the BR one as you suggest. (Easier for the Stars as no cabside windows to have to add lining around!) For The British Monach, I have a "Star" bought off Ebay someone converted from an old Hornby Castle, not prefect but passable to me in context of my layout - if I keep it moving, no time to rivet count - and as decoder in the loco, swapping tender is easy. I have toyed with getting Lode Star but notwithstanding the warm feeling in helping STEAM through its purchase, buying something "special" to renumber/name feels a bit like sacrilege(!!!) so am resisting.

+1 for the 43xx, a useful and unsung loco. And what about a Bulldog, haven't they got 1/2 of the bits already?

No worries, that was straightforward: just need to remember to change the relevant numbers in your message on interlocking for it to make sense...

There was one lunchtime through return service to Oxford from Woodstock - IIRC

Following a message exchange with the Stationmaster, one small change to the diagram. One facing point lock on the other end of the double slip added, I'd previously missed. (I didn't clock that the line on the SRS plan was a FPL, needed when there's a move from the branch to the up main this is a facing point, lever 29 on SRS original plan refers) Thanks, Mike, for spotting something was missing.

It's taken this to finally get to grips with the routes through the crossover and double slip, which levers will do what and how lock the different points*. Nice if nothing else to get points even if still controlled by Powercab for now with the 'proper' numbers not something arbitrary. *subject to "approval"

Another vote for the GNR one too please, in LNER livery. I'll overlook that it would have passed through my layout in the dead of night at the head of a parcels/mail train.

Thanks - I did have some help from the GWR signalling department, both past and present , though! Now for the interlocking and, no doubt, more questions...

Here's the final(?) signal diagram to go with the plan above:

Couldn't they just make these bits (and whilstle shield?) clip on, suppose that adds to cost though... Similarly why can't smokebox doors be done the same so no separate moulds for pre and post nationalisation?

Following my thread on signalling for Begbrooke with lots of interesting discussion and helpful advice from the usual suspect(s) I have decided to make a change to the layout at the far right of the scenic section. Rather than have a double slip which joined the branch back to the down mainline I'm going to move this connection to the far side of the bridge. This is nearer to the prototype (Kidlington), makes signalling a bit simpler and allows a much longer train to be held in the branch whilst a faster train passes. Revised track plan here, showing that a 20 wagon freight will just fit with revised arrangement. Changes to track layout underway then no excuse to not start the scenic work! Thanks for the interest Jon

I'll take that under advisement, Mike. Perhaps if the signal was put in the 10ft not the cess that would aid it's sighting through the arch of the bridge being on the outside of the bend and the arm at lower than normal height? It will be around 300mm from the bridge, by the first coal wagon in the picture. Maybe a bit of "modeller's license" here? (I regret so say.) If it's the other side of the bridge then it's so close to the preceding one to be of no use, I think. Also I'm not completely clear what it was doing anyway in the prototype. Signalling at the siding in the down direction looks incomplete to me in the protype as there's no signal in rear of the junction with the siding, guess with pattern of operations that wasn't necessary? Thanks Jon

Thanks, Miss P. Yes it looks strange but it was there in reality, not a figment of my imagination! It was added to serve a timber yard beyond the goods shed, the tracks running across the station forecourt. Indeed it gets even worse, as a bacon factory was built requiring a siding branching off the run-around loop. Oldmaps.co.uk gives good history of the changes in the track layout both here and the branch/mainline connections. The bacon factory would be right where my lift up section is, so have shyed away from considering modelling that. (That could change!) I thought it was an unusual feature of the prototype - something so daft you'd struggle to come up with it yourself, making for an interesting model. Each to their own! (Edit: the above not at all obvious as the plan above has labels turned off)

Following all the discussion I've had a rethink about the track layout at the end of the down siding. By removing the double slip and putting the connection from branch back to down main just after the bridge, this allows a much longer train to use the branch as a loop: tender loco and around 20 wagons which is the limit of my storage tracks anyway. See the right of the plan - T This fits just with the entry to the storage tracks so minimal changes to track already down. Just been out and tested this "on site" too and does appear to fit and allow train as shown to use the branch. Here's the revised signal diagram, hopefully taking on board other comments made to date and no fresh mistakes? (Any comments welcome and appreciated!) I'm not completely sure whether 41 is needed, there is one there 46 in the prototype but a bit further to the rear. It would be bit close to the bridge, but not completely daft. I am inclined to make this change: this is a lot closer to the prototype (the layout pre-WW2 at least), that's got to be a good thing? Thanks for looking, Jon

Thanks, Mike. I must admit my compromise change from the prototype with the double slip at the end of down siding and this discussion is making me think more about this area. This is combined with my thoughts on the layout operation erring much more toward timetabled operation with no doubt some compromises. In my layout on the down side I've mixed and matched eras; the double slip by end of platform being installed early 1900s I think, the layout of the branch connection being south of the bridge being the original 19th century layout. Yet I am proposing to run 1940s trains. At one stage in planning I did consider making this area more prototypical and having the connection back to the main off scene, indeed it could run quite neatly into the outer two fiddle yard tracks. Something to just re-check what my priorities are. Quite likely conclusion doesn't change but worth a thought before scenic work commences. All the best Jon

Thanks, you are right about 35: I've invented it! In reality the connection from the branch back the mainline was much further to the north and moved twice according to Adrian Vaughan's book, last time in WW2, far beyond the bridge. Point on the mainline 36 was a sprung point and the point on the branch to it electrically powered with hand generator in the box.

Interesting - so as long as move is authorised by the signalman in whatever way (conversation, flag, hand signals?) it can be made whether signalled or not. (Thinking how the up freight would get across to pick up something from the down siding as just discussed. Guessing train is stopped by the box, signalman has the conversation with the crew and they agree what is going to be done, train then draws ahead to clear the crossover and they get on with it. Sorry if a silly question - understanding of railway operations especially the mundane is the hardest bit to glean knowledge on in my view, not covered by books I've read.)

Great, thanks. Your supposition matches what I can glean from the WTT I have (1948 BR from http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/default.aspx?atk=597,). Kidlington yard shunted between 11.30am and 11.50am by Class K Banbury bound freight. In that time it is passed by a Birmingham bound Class A passenger train so the freight is off the down main, either on the branch or down siding. The branch auto is out of the way in this time, having departed for Woodstock at 11.15am so it could occupy the branch section in the control of the Kidlington box. The compression in my model and desire to get the end of the down siding and connection back to down main on-scene has meant the down siding is too short, just long enough to serve as a run around loop, and too short for a goods train serving the yard to drive in via the facing double slip as it would not be off the down main before loco reached signal no.8, so either it doesn't do this and sets-back via 36, or could it run in and continue up branch to the outer home (this now being at no.43 as per your previous comment)(if that would be permissible) In the up direction the WTT shows a class J train stopping a Kiddlington between 4.13pm and 4.53pm but doesn't say it is does any "work" in this time. It is passed in the up direction at 4.40pm, so whether it was just sitting in the up-siding or was doing something else in this time like collecting wagons Oxford bound from the down siding or the spurs at the end of it, say, isn't clear to me, whether that counts as "work"? Thanks Jon

Thanks again, Mike Oops, silly of me - having done some revision on The Signal Box (no doubt covered numerous time in this place too) meaning of "Clearing Point" sinks in. Duh. Am I right in then thinking, this then also explains doesn't it location of signal no.2: it's location being at least 440 yards in rear of no.3, nothing to do with platform or train length? (There's another question coming in relation to No.2 later) Ok, I had thought a double disc might be needed here, may keep to single one for ease of working signal construction/procurement. If 29 were a semaphore giving information separately for the two routes both would have goods rings wouldn't they, don't recall seeing photo of such a signal anywhere. For model, as your original post, semaphore is going to make it look too crowded. At the up end of the branch siding should the same principle apply too? The down end I can see I've complicated things by introducing the double slip, not having two separate junctions between the siding and the branch then branch and down main but other end is as per Kidlington. So there doesn't appear to be any difference between a move from the siding to the bay line or to the crossover to the up main. Signals 41, 27, 37 cover the branch only and protect(?) the junction between siding and branch. Yes! Even though I think I can do it writing programs in the NCE Mini Panel, there are limits on number of inputs and steps so want to keep it simple, but have something.

Agree, it does lack information on Kidlington. Adrian Vaughan's GWR Junction Stations provides more information, that's been my reference.

Right, the "easy" bits of advice to double check first. Don't understand this I'm afraid, Mike. Doesn't 42 do this, train can leave Marlingford and be stopped at this signal whilst loop is occupied? I can see I'd need another stop signal in the rear of 42 (if I turn a blind eye to its sighting(!)) if I wanted to be able to shunt the down siding using the branch as the headshunt but if I don't then doesn't 42 and fixed distant in lieu of 43 (as noted later) suffice. I'm struggling to understand this too, what to move/where. 29 is for the down exit from the down siding, 8 for the branch, 10 for connection to the mainline. Adapted from the SRS plan, putting 8 and 6 next to 36. Maybe my diagram's unclear? So if for certain moves all the interlocking is done by the points to avoid conflicts then the signal for that route need only be linked to the first point lever and any other relevant signals not to the whole chain of points? Thanks Jon