wombatofludham

"I can guarantee most of you will absolutely love it!!" I suspect that rules out what you or I would "absolutely love it" to be. We both know know blue boxes with coathangers on the roof bring out most RMwebbers in hives, boils, pustules, deep depression and nervous apoplexy. It'll be a pretty little tea urn on wheels, although I wouldn't say no to a Coal Tank myself. Oh to be wrong though...

Thanks for that. Right now I'm committed to getting "King's Oak" ready for RM Live in September but I will have a look into this a bit more, once that is out of the way, using your Class 71 appeal as a template. I assume it is reasonable to expect the figures you will be using for the 71 would be similar for say an AL6? (Oops, giving too much away there...!)

Just out of interest and not wanting to take the tread off piste, if people wanted to kickstart a "north of the Thames electric" would you be looking at a 1000 sign-ups for that, and would you be able to accommodate it in your workplan if it reached that number?

The decision to adopt the Metric system in the UK was made by Parliament in 1965, and the Metrication board set up in 1969. We joined the EEC in 1973, so metrication cannot be blamed on the EU. Sorry if that sounds a bit snotty but I do get annoyed when everything going on in the UK gets blamed on the "EU". I half expect Beeching to be revealed as an EU inspired plot to boost German and French car production sometime soon.

Well there are the three Bullied booster locos, which ran into BR days. Given the way our Southern colleagues keep banging on about Merchant Navy kettles I suspect these may be off radar to them, but given the three locos managed to share two body designs, they would probably be more attractive to the Danes who seem to have some form of obsessive-compulsive disorder to model every kind of freak diesel/electric they can, so it'll be either the Bullied electrics or Kerosene Castle from them soon.

Actually two pairs of outers and three pairs of inners would make up a 10 car rake for those with the space - but I agree single sales would probably be more popular. I thought though the original announcement suggested the inners would be singles?

Can you imagine the collective dummy-spitting breakdown there will be on these forums on the 29th if a Class 87 is announced based on some reactions to the announcement of the 90? Andy will have to put up the Samaritans hotline number at the top of the website.

Has Jocko Dibnah been at your factory chimney?

I suggested the jackshaft drive version as it is visually quite different to the 08/09 design, whereas the twin motor LMS shunters look similar to the BR standard designs to those not familiar with the detail differences. There's also the chance to do wartime liveries and (more for collectors due to the scale differences) limited edition Egyptian or Italian liveried versions, which might appeal to some as a collectable (they'd be too big of course for HO modellers!).

How about an LMS design 0-6-0 shunter? I nominate this on the basis that: 1 - They date from the 1930s and so can become honorary kettles 2 - They don't have a coathanger on the roof as they don't run off electric string, and so according to some, should not frighten or cause "the majority" of modellers to come out in boils or other pestilential afflictions 3 - Less acidly, they are a compact, attractive and long lived piece of railway history, which went on to serve on some industrial sites, and with the WD. Some even were sent abroad. My thought would be to do an Armstrong-Whitworth "jackshaft" design from the first batch built in 1936 although all ended up in war service abroad bar one which stayed with the WD, limiting liveries. However, the "jackshaft" would differentiate it from the BR standard 08/09 design. As an alternative, the 1939 batch of 7080-7119 were also jackshaft driven, and have the added benefit of being English Electric powered allowing an 08 sound chip to be used, and 30 of the 40 made it through the war to serve with BR until the mid 1960s. I think in many respects the LMS diesel shunters were one of the most significant items of traction of the 20th Century, giving the railways confidence to explore diesel traction more widely, having significant wartime service and leading to a number of important export orders after their war service on European and Middle East railways. As such, they are probably as worthy of a decent model as anything else.

Unless the ownership changed when the Altram consortium was dissolved most of the T69s were originally funded by Royal Bank of Scotland with a "buy 15 get one free" tram which was owned by the construction consortium provided as "insurance cover" as they were not sure they could achieve the scheduled timetable with the original contract spec 15 strong fleet (rightly as it turned out). Theoretically if I remember correctly, or unless things have changed, it means one tram is Centro property and 15 belong to a bank (if they were not bought out at some point) which may explain why one has been donated to the test track and the rest will go into store, although given the level of cannibalisation it may be some go into long term storage in a skip.

Makes you wonder if eBay stands for every buyer a yo-yo.

I must admit the sound I heard sounded more mechanical but could have been a combination of factors. I'm glad the Metro team are keeping on top of the rail noise as I was involved in the noise and vibration policy formulation which was at the time a pioneering piece of work. We considered it essential that the Metro was seen as a good neighbour which is why I was mildly alarmed to hear several T69s sounding like a tractor. Hopefully though by the end of the year things will be improved with the new trams.

I was "lucky" to be on board one of the trams in Naples on the Ansaldo test track when they tested the magnetic brake. We very nearly all ended up in the cab with the driver, so they did work at one time! I have to say the last time I heard a Metro tram go past (on Bilston Road in Wolverhampton) late last year it sounded like it was dragging a fitter's bag of spanners along underneath it, and given the builder has never been able to supply spares efficiently and there has always been at least one tram out of service as a "Christmas tree", and seeing how the similar Oslo trams built at the same time are being replaced, I bet TMM are counting down the days until the new CAF vehicles enter service.

Correct, I worked for Centro as part of the Metro team and they were indeed specified to - theoretically at least - climb Castle Hill in Dudley. I say theoretically as when built, the trams ended up with numerous variations between them, and trying to keep the builders to spec was nigh on impossible, (Google "AnsaldoBreda" and see just what other contracts they have made a mess of) so whether they actually could make the climb is a moot point. I do have a lot of sympathy with TMM, they were brought in as operators once the system was built so had absolutely no say in the future maintainability of the route or vehicles and as the Government had insisted on a "Design, Build, Operate and maintain" contract, where the Government insisted the contractors would build a system to make a profit and be easy to maintain, Centro was limited by the rules of the award of finance as to how much say they could have in making sure the system was fit for purpose - the Government's naive view was the operator will want to have a system that makes money, so of course they'll build it to last. The fact the long term operator came in after it was built so couldn't influence how cost effective the line would be to maintain was probably deliberate but we'll never know. Suffice it to say a lot of the subsequent problems with the route are down to that decision by the Government to insist on a DBOM contract and their tight-fistedness. That said, if you think Line 1 is cheap and nasty, you don't know just how close you all came to having to put up with a guided busway. The Department for Transport in London at one point were only willing to fund a guided busway because it was seen as a more "cost effective" (i.e cheap) option. The problem is the DfT in London at that time had no idea of regional transport needs. It beggars belief now but one of the reasons why the DfT kept rejecting electrification of the Cross City line was they couldn't see why a "rural branch line in the Midlands" should be electrified ahead of the Chiltern lines. Had the former MP for Lichfield not committed suicide with his seat looking it would fall to Labour, it would probably have been many more years before the Cross City was electrified. Fortunately, it genuinely looks as if the DfT have now got some idea that there are commuting needs in provincial cities and although spending is still heavily skewed to London, some money is leaking out beyond the London travelcard zone. That said, given when I joined Centro in 1990 we were looking forward to having a network, we had a good team and were making progress, albeit slowly, since Line 1 the senior management at Centro have frankly lost the plot. Instead of having the confidence of GMPTE who, when knocked back for their big-bang extension plan kept the team together and just got on with the job of building the network line by line, and have now got the job virtually done, or the team at Nottingham who started after Centro but are now overtaking them with extending their route, Centro senior management became obsessed with bus solutions, convinced they would never get Government money for the other routes. The team, who had learned how to do what are now called "public-private partnerships" virtually on the job were allowed to disband, and all the hard won expertise went to private consultants, ironically now helping other cities build light-rail schemes whilst the West Midlands tinkers at the edges. I've probably said too much but one day I intend to write a book about how the project was handled and be damned, I do feel that the people of the West Midlands have been badly let down by very senior decision makers both in Birmingham and London.

Not on your Nellie. Or his.

Personally I don't see the risk in a deposit being made with the retail outlet of the NRM, it's not as if they are a here today, gone tomorrow swapmeet retailer. Whilst I would have preferred something with a coathanger on the roof, the idea of a DCC sound gas turbine APT-E on test runs under the wires is far too tempting. As soon as I've finished the spend on upgrading Kings Oak I'll be placing an order. I'm glad we've got until April next year to place an order as it allows a bit of financial planning but I have to say the price was a pleasant surprise. So Jason, how about the NRM's class 87 next time?

I assume the ballast is being catproofed with pva solution?

Believe me, I've thought about that but wasn't sure of the costs involved. It is something to mull over. In the meantime if I can get a lottery win, I'll be pm'ing you as soon as I can get off the phone from Camelot. (Edit) I fully understand you wouldn't be able to entertain anything as risky as something with a coathanger on the roof being a smaller start up, I was commenting more on the wider market and the bigger boys more able to consider a balanced portfolio of sure-fire winners and riskier, slower sellers. I still think you are being very brave doing what you are doing!

Karhedron, I understand what you are saying and as someone like you who has been working with the woeful existing Hornby lumps, I am prepared to do some butchery. However, I do feel that there is a bit of a self-fulfilling sneeriness about the potential interest in AC electrics based on some incomplete analysis and assumptions of what is around. I would not ever say that AC electric models will be a sure fire seller, and go flying off the shelves like the proverbial sun dried dog dirt off a manual soil transferral implement, but when you see some of the extremely niche freak diesel classes which worked out of one depot for a week before exploding into a pile of oily shrapnel, which seem to sell, or some of the steam locos now being produced which must count the number of avid followers on the finger of one hand with enough left over to stick up a Harvey Smith to electric modellers, you do wonder if there is an element of dare I say it, prejudice creeping in. Still, enough said, I don't want to get a reputation for turning AC electrics into the new North Eastern Railway campaign for justice...

Sorry Dave and others but I am going to have to disagree with the observations regarding AC electrics. Looking at it from an OO perspective, the simple fact is the models that have been released have been badly pitched and have no synergy with one another. Taking things in order: Hornby. All the models are dated and have flaws. The 87 was new when I was just starting secondary school and I'm now 51, has HO bogies and needs a lot of scalpel work, detailing and repainting to make anything decent from. It is in no way suitable to run alongside the Bachmann 85 unless you have lots of time and skill to fettle it up. The Hornby 86 is not much younger, early versions are best described as DCC incompatible as when you hard-wire a chip into them they become bi-polar and have poor speed control, plus yet again, they need a lot of work to make them look good, and again many people today don't have the time or resources to spend hours and pounds on getting the loco to look good, if there is the possibility of buying off the peg diesels which come fully loaded with detail. The 90 is flawed and again is clumsy alongside the Bachmann 85. I can't comment on the 91 as the East Coast is the dark side of the moon to me but it lacks finesse and whenever I've seen them it just doesn't look right to me. Heljan. Their 86 has well advertised flaws which to be honest only the front end and pantograph bother me, but the biggest problem was they modelled only the post 1996-7 refurbished body style, with inergen fire bottles, tdm cables and headlamp. Therefore to get the loco back to any other era you had to start carving away at a £110+ model to remove TDMs and headlamps. Arguably this body style tied it into the less attractive (market wise) post privatisation era and little wonder they didn't sell. That said, you try finding an Intercity Swallow example which suggests that had Heljan modelled a style which allowed rail blue, Executive and other BR liveries without surgery, it may have sold in better numbers. Whilst some of the privatised liveries, like Virgin, do have their devotees, again the lack of a decent 87 or 90 to run alongside the 86 in a contemporaneous layout probably held it back, more than the flaws in the body moulding. Bachmann. The 85 has become regarded as the gold standard for AC electrics, and rightly so. But, what can you run alongside it? Only 50 AL5s were built so you need as a minimum a decent 86 capable of being modelled as an AL6-86/0 in early blue with white cabs, and corporate Blue, and an unrefurbished 86/2 to be able to create a representative impression of the WCML in the period 1965-1995, which is the timespan of the Class 85. Ideally you'd also need a decent 87 to model post 1974. You could do without an 81, and I suspect it'll be a very cold day in Hell before we ever get an 82-4 and again they only ran in penny numbers. Running unmodified Hornby 86s or 87s, the only other models currently available, would not satisfy modern modellers without a substantial investment in time and effort, and again, if you are starting out on a new project and quite fancy doing an AC layout but then realise there is only one well modelled class of AC electric, and you don't want to/have time to/have the skills to start a major surgery programme on the Hornby geriatric lumps (I choose those words deliberately) you'll move on to something more achievable out of the box EMUs. We only have one AC emu, the Desiro. Nice model, but entered service nearly 10 years after the Class 85 was scrapped. It's only really synergic with the Bachmann Voyagers and modern DMU fleet. Oh and the Hornby Pendolino, which is aimed at the train-set market, with printed details and although nice, is only available currently as a train-set, and the additional coaches needed to make up a rake are increasingly difficult to find. So you see, no-one can really judge the sales potential of AC electrics based on the fact we only have one decent currently available model of one class, the 85. To be able to seriously undertake a reasonable WCML layout out of the box, we need a decent AL6-86/2 suitable to cover the 1965-95 period and an 87 to cover the 1974-1999 period. A decent 90 wouldn't go amiss either to cover the 1987-current period, but I would suggest you could just contemplate an interesting WCML themed layout with the 85, 86 and 87. With that we would also need a multiple unit, I would suggest a 304 covering 1960-1999 (although my personal favourite would be a 310). We only have the 85 out there at present, so any "poor sales" or "lack of interest" is a self-fulfilling prophesy as there is a lack of models of classes of AC electric that ran alongside the 85. After all, would Western region modellers be happy to keep being told that the ex Lima Warship and Hornby Western are more than adequate for them to model the Western Region diesel era? I doubt it given the number of Western models that have been released over the years in an attempt to capture the class.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-Dublo-Gresley-A4-Union-of-South-Africa-3-Rail-NEVERWAZZA/171352437636?_trksid=p2045573.c100034.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22869%26meid%3D7493803966815373021%26pid%3D100034%26prg%3D9837%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D331227375495 Ideal for whoever buys Stoke Bank. "To the purists out there this may be a step too far." You don't say....

I've had a couple of good buys recently on eBay, two Pola/Playcraft "Bletchley" station buildings, one in kit form and one built up. I got the kit for about £25 and the built up one (which needs some slight restoration and a paint job) for just over a fiver. The thing is until I saw the listing for the kit I had no idea these kits existed, but they are a brilliant representation of the WCML modernisation plan prefabricated stations used in places like East Didsbury, so I was well pleased to get not one but two within a month! From what I can see, and having done a bit of digging, they are not that common so to have gone from a state of total ignorance of their existence to having two in the space of a month is pretty good going I think!

"Old Man Wiles" (cheek, I'm only 10 years older than you...) will have to bring his big stick of persuasion with him next time he's in your area, the one he uses to encourage his scrappies back to work when they sneak off for a nicotine fix. He can be very persuasive...

Carl Espen - Silent Storm