hayfield

I don't mind being labelled as broadly conservative, which I guess a vast section of our society are. Neither I am complaining about people who share differing views. I very happy at listening to their point of view. What I have said could equally be repeated by some one with a broadly socialist perspective. I don't mind either discussing matters with those with either far left or far right views, certainly disagree with both spectrum. Where I think you have missed the point I was making and Arthur summed it up well, Those who use sound bites from those who are loosing the arguments, so start making exaggerated claims. I really do not get your statement, viewed from the other end of the spectrum !! This childish and bad mannered behaviour affects everyone whichever side they are on. I do agree with your last point.

Is it me or has there been a seed change in peoples attitudes Where I used to live there was 2 villages close to each other, one always had a Jewish community which was an inclusive part of the community, everyone got on with each other, none of them or us. A planning issue came up and anyone who opposed it was branded an anti Semite, the irony being that many of those against were either non religious or liberal Jew's, there was no anti Jewish feeling just an objection to a planning request by residents from all groups If you disagree with left wing views all of a sudden you become an neo-Nazi, when in fact your only crime is to have a different point of view Recently the FA was described as being full of old grey headed white males, well it might have a lot of members who for years have given up their spare time serving their locality and enabling grass roots football to survive (not or never have been a member of the FA), rising through the ranks to a senior level. But if we levelled the same comment at either a racial minority, other sexual group etc we would be in court We saw the same with Brexit, people of all ethnicity, gender and political persuasion either called ultra right wing or thick !! NO they just had a different view on things. Why are folk so willing to make nasty false claims rather than accept others have the right to a different point of view.

Its a rescue platform, don't think a fire fighting appliance (though it might have a water supply on the platform). The spokesman said it would have helped save some lives as it could reach the highest floor, From what I saw of the fire one side of the building was accessible and is where many needing rescue were to be seen I would anticipate it would be mostly used to extract sick/injured workmen working on high rise buildings etc. though I guess fires and incidents in commercial premises are far more common than residential. One would assume after the various investigations into the fire, thinking on what to do in future may well be different

Castle Bought the Keyser kit, in fact have two or 3. Very heavy and quite basic, later versions with a plastic roof were a bit lighter. Unless there have been a recent news release the chap at Branchlines is still working on the motor trailer (info from Dave ellis SEF)

Thanks for some sense

Edit Duplicated reply

There was a Scandinavian aerial rescue tower shown on one of the news programs, held 8 to 12 people and could reach the top story, Would have taken 15 mins per rescue to go up and down. The London Fire Brigade are now looking into this as their high rise appliances are nearing their replacement date

The victims deserve to be helped to get over this tragic event, both in the immediate and long terms. They need assistance not political doctrine There is a big difference between those who are willing to help, and those who are using the situation to promote their own political ends. To be quite honest some are actually hindering not helping.

Looking at what is happening both in Kensington and Camden (one being the smallest council and the other one of the largest) It seems both councils are struggling to cope, the plans both had for such large scale events like this were not up to the Job, Where are the civil servants on the ground ?. Then you have "rent a quote" or otherwise known as the Mayor of London and the London Assembly members, this group should swing into action with other boroughs as the events that happened are too big for even the largest boroughs alone to handle Then we have some political parties making political capital out of both these tragedies, which if on their watch would have been handled just as badly. We have now lost 6 high rise blocks for accommodation, how can councils claim all will be rehoused within days, when we had a housing crisis when these blocks were in use and still were unable to house many who were either homeless or in unsuitable housing Finally yesterday I came to the conclusion there were far to many activists pretending to help, but there just to stir up trouble. Totally diminishing the wonderful work all those who took time out to help others. How these left wing activists can prey on the survivors/those who have lost family and friends who are in a desperate state is beyond comprehension (thank God that the right wing have kept well away). I am not talking about those trying (and succeeding) to help, but the rent a mob/ambulance chasers pretending to be concerned/act on behalf of those affected, yet pushing their own anarchic political views. Happy that the residents seek assistance in perusing their needs, but it should be either non political or cross party. support. Help then YES, use them NO From what I understand the Public enquiry is all about finding out how a domestic fire (which was put out) became an inferno, and needs to report back quickly with interim reports to benefit the thousands who still live in tower blocks, the judge is highly respected as being able to understand highly technical building industry cases, and to boot known for the speed of his work. He also has to tread carefully as there is a police investigation under way. The only grey area is about the previous residents fears and complaints which sadly became true, which if it does not affecting the police investigation in my opinion should be included

For several years now the police have come to the conclusion that in most cases it is a terrible waste of resources to use a highly trained police officer for a back room support job, or even worse use these jobs as a place to house officers who for what ever reason are now unsuitable/unable to do the mainline police work. This latter group tend to be more of a millstone on the department than any actual benefit. There are exceptions though as my relative spoke of one officer who was good at his job, who resigned his commission and became a civilian employee, as it happens through differing allowances they received a pay rise and could work longer they they could as an officer owing to a later retirement age The other relative in a specialist job is about 3 years off retirement, owing to the nature of their job their continued employment unlike other policing jobs should not be an issue, but is caught in this catch all net (though they have been paying their pension at accelerated rates to coincide with the early retirement age)

Phil The 3 police examples have actually happened, less police officers, but the remaining officers are doing front line services. The relative who is in the scientific services is actually trailing a DNA machine that produces results in 2 hours rather than sending it away and waiting 2 weeks +. As I am sure you are aware quite often we are given information to support the view of interested parties rather than the whole truth The relative who is into using new computer methods of detection actually gave a lecture in the Hague to the International War Crimes Court, agreed the police and other services teed additional funds, but all too often the advances in working practices go un-noticed. We need modernised emergency services which are fit for the 21st century, the funding is there, perhaps not in the amounts desired An example is that I take Warfarine, those of us need our blood testing regular. I used to go to a hospital, who took a blood sample, sent it for testing and a written reply was posted that evening, now I go into the surgery and see a nurse, my finger is pricked and the sample is put on to a hand held machine, gives the result in seconds which is fed into a computer program which prescribes the dose and works out when the next test is needed. Must save the NHS £1000's of £'s a week nationally

Phil Sadly the way things improve is through disasters like this. Other than the obvious cause of the rapid expansion of the fire, the thing that has come out of this is 2 fold Firstly we need to look more carefully at what we do to a buildings safety integrity when refurbishing them Secondly we need these buildings being independently checked for safety compliance. I would imagine insurance companies will be very unhappy with the resulting claims and perhaps this is where they can as a group demand as part of the contract annual safety independent inspections (perhaps a service the fire brigade could offer at an appropriate cost)

Quite often we look at these statements out of context and therefore come up with the wrong conclusion The question we should be asking is not how many police officers we have, but how many front line officers. I have 2 members of my family who work within the police service, one is a member of the scientific services, they and their colleagues have taken the place of policemen and in many cases do a better job. Another is involved in investigating crime using technology to assist investigations, one piece of work they have been doing in conjunction with outside companies is to use computer programs to analyse data rather than doing it manually. A smart bit of software does in seconds what manually would take hours. A previous working colleague joined the police service working in the custody suite. In all 2 cases fully trained officers time was freed up so they could be doing the jobs they were trained for, 2 by people specifically trained for the job, the other by a machine, less police officers in total, but not less front line officers, Police work is changing and they need new working methods to keep up with modern criminality One fact is fires are reducing in number,another is that most fires in high rise buildings are self contained and dealt with by the fire brigade. Rather than the number of firemen being the issue in this case, they were there in large numbers. The 2 main areas that stand out is 1 inappropriate cladding on the building 2 lack of high rise rescue platforms The nature of work the firemen are doing is altering, the service needs to adapt to the change in both equipment and manpower. Its is not always a case of numbers

I think you will find it easier once you have soldered the fire box to the boiler to cut the bulkhead back if it is the same construction as the 3 LMS tender locos. If not they that will save a bit of time and effort

At work we face the sack if we fail to keep fire escapes clear and or prop open fire doors. This is under the Health and Safety section within our terms of employment which includes a warning that we as individuals may also (as well as the company) be liable to prosecution for serious breaches. I am certain this covers all work places and places open to the public. May be another body than the HSE, but there is a body which should oversee such places

Just to touch base with Camden, Did I not hear that there were loads of fire doors missing, not just a few. I know it has been reported that they need 1000 + doors but I thought they were to replace existing ones, Local news last night seemed to report lots of fire doors missing. If this is true and the tenants have been complaining about it heads must roll. Also a message to all other landlords/management groups that this inaction will not be tolerated and legal action will be taken. Where have the HSE been all this time?

Just out of interest what are you selling?

I went to a secondary modern school, all but a few pupils wanted to make a life for them selves, thankfully not an inner city and certainly not having the ultra violent issues we now have. The odd fight in the playground, back chat to some teachers. No teacher was ever threatened or assaulted and no weapons at all. There was a line which was not crossed, prior to that line pupils were punished. Too many do-gooders now. Too many know their rights but fail to accept their responsibilities. Not too long ago locally a (young) persistent burglar was jailed, burglary dropped by 50%. The word got out

I think you might be misunderstanding the point I am making, which I think is much the same as JJB1970. This has nothing to do with either social class ethnicity etc, Privileged and or rich people can and do behave equally as bad as poor/underprivileged do There are people who do not confirm to normal acceptable practices (I am not talking about those who are different but do not affect others) which if unchecked would have serious consequences on others, when these activities become dangerous to others then the authorities must step in We do need joined up thinking on mental health issues for the benefit of all, especially the patients Those who have antisocial problems, especially those with chaotic lifestyles. Householders need protection from these folk Drug dealers and gang members who make others lives a misery Tenants subletting their social housing/rogue landlords who tend to prey on those who perhaps live off radar, making them live in awful conditions, sometimes at great expense Then just plain antisocial trouble makers I do believe we should be a caring society, we should help those less fortunate, but also protect those who are also less fortunate and fall prey to these groups. There must be a line which when crossed the authorities must manage. Those who do need help must be managed in a safe place mostly for their own well being. When living in close proximity to each other especially when living in high rise buildings its even more important that these boundaries are enforced more rigorously for the safety of all. The main protagonists of these issues are a very small group, with lots of hangers on (in the case of gangs). If we deal with these people then perhaps others on the fringe would not be dragged into these unacceptable behaviours.

Certainly Camden is a mixed flats with owner occupiers and tenants. The vast majority of tenants being decent law abiding and considerate folk. There are however a small section of the population who are anti social, many with social problems with what is now described as chaotic lifestyles, some being dangerous to both themselves and others. Others living a completely a different lifestyle with no regard to either the law or others. Then you have the rogue landlords, who rent out their social housing to those who are under the radar, normally overcrowding the properties with all the issues this causes With this mixture no wonder the places get vandalised, badly treated and in some cases hazardous, so far no one has found the answer, and I guess having to repair / replace items which have been damaged constantly leads to ethos of is it worth doing just to come back again quickly to repair the repair Perhaps after this tragedy another area that will need addressing is what to do with tenants who regularly damage property and put others in danger, or abuse their tenancy with either illegal activities or sub letting.

Tom As said it depends on both the price of the item and its desirability, if its a rare desirable item then it will be fine. Not worth it if both cheap and or common item. Royal mail is great for lighter and smaller items, other couriers may be far cheaper, or collect only may be the answer

You are so spot on here, the situation is far too serious for cheap political statements. In situations like this it should be done by a cross party system, free from political mantras. We had a couple post a bit earlier blaming the Tory government, its far too early to know who/what was to blame. Now that great statesman Mr MacDonald seems to have shot his party in the foot given the latest developments from Camden. The few facts that have emerged is that fire standards were not good enough and it now looks like some of the existing regulations were ignored. I would imagine rightly there are some very worried people out there, but first both national and local governments must make sure properties like these and also buildings like hotels, schools etc are as safe as they can be

I think you will have to go for a casting resin, I have used a substance called I think Silly Mould, which makes a rubberised master (excellent by the way) but had an idea to use thin epoxy glue, no use at all. A thinned down model filler might have worked, but resin is the correct stuff

The fact is Grenfell tower block seems not to be the exception as we now have all those tower blocks with cladding failing fire tests, we have also seen like Grenfell the owners and tenants of the Camden tower blocks had similar fears about the nature and quality of recent building renovations and the quality of workmanship. According to a member of the residents committee these fears up to two days earlier were mostly being ignored, after both the meeting (requested by the tenants ) and governmental instruction to check the combustibility of the cladding, the council after finally investigating the concerns found serious failings in fire safety within the buildings Last night we were told on the BBC news not only do Camden need in excess of 1000 new fire doors, as the ones installed were not up to doing the job, but far more worrying a number of fire doors were missing. There is something very wrong here. At work we face dismissal if we either partially block a fire exit route or wedge fire doors open. At home after having an extension built I have had to install a mains powered fire, heat and C02 sensors. If I were a landlord I would have to have regular safety checks and hold certificates by law. I would have thought that the fire regulations required for high rise buildings, especially where there is 1 exit would be far higher I agree with the sentiment that both politicians and others should not make political capital out of such a tragic event. I can understand Mr MacDonald's concerns for his constituents, but this outburst is clearly not helpful at this time. If anything an own goal as it seems one of his own parties councils have totally failed their tenants and using his logic are guilty of attempted murder through gross negligence. Personally at this moment in time these statements are ill advised until we know all the facts, clearly the previous thinking about fire prevention/containment were wrong, then there are questions of design, maintance and safety checking. All of which at first glance needs looking at again. Its too early to lay the blame on anything or anyone. The investigation now seems it must include other tower blocks, interim statements and any failings must be reported so as to keep all existing tenants safe. However where it is clear there have been failings by key personnel they should be removed from job / office and dealt with accordingly, for the safety of existing tenants. At work we are constantly reminded each of us are responsible for the safety of all others using the building, failure to do so will lead to disciplinary action, this should be the minimum standard applying to all

I know you are having a laugh, but in america they take a different approach to fires in tall buildings We have a passive method of sealing each flat off as it is designed to be fire resistant for 1 hour, which gives the fire brigade time to reach you. America takes the aggressive approach using sprinklers to aid evacuation, much the same as most work places I have no idea which is best, or if it would have made any difference to the London fire My daughter attended the Home Office fire (analysis) training centre in the north a few years back. They have 3 concrete rooms next to each other and on day 1 & 2 of the coarse they are taught how to analyse the scene and trace the source/cause of the fire. On day 3 they set the fire off for the next course. The fire is started at one end and she was amazed how quickly the fire spread, initially within the room, then once the adjoining room reached a certain temperature from the heat next door it spontaneously caught fire, the same thing happened to the 3rd room. Given the fire took hold in the two other rooms by heat and not flames spreading one wonders how effective our passive method is with more serious fires. On the other hand most fires on high rise buildings are contained and put out. In Kensington it was reported the fridge/freezer fire was put out by the fire brigade, somehow the fire transferred to the cladding outside and we saw the results.