jjnewitt

Good job with

 

 

....had a good look at your handywork whilst at the Shawplan stand today Justin...very nice. Expect some orders if the TG Westerns aren't glued to the rails.

 

ATB

 

Dave

Thanks Dave. The Western seemed quite happy spending the day with Brian and Mike but I managed to get it back at the end of the day! Be warned though once you start springing diesels you'll want to do all of them!

Justin

No wobbly wheels here. No wobbles anywhere just lots of lovely springs! Such a lovely loco deserves proper underpinnings and this is what can be done if you're mad enough and work in P4 where you have a bit more room. I posted a picture of one of the bogies earlier in the thread so I thought I'd post one now it's up and running. Those coil springs on the bolster work exactly as the real thing does.   They're the ones that came with the Dapol model but they do need changing as they're a bit 'hard' and also a bit long so the loco sits a bit high at the moment. I'll make some softer ones when I get chance. There's a few other areas that need slight attention as well not to mention brakes, buffers etc.

Justin    

Why should you have to do all this with a loco costing around £130?

Something to do with Shenston Road being EM maybe?

The Ultrascale wheels are the correct scale diameter so hopefully the ride height will be unaffected by effectively moving the bogie up a smidgen.  Not that I've worked it out yet!

 

I'd have thought that altering the ride height would be a good idea. By my measurements the as supplied OO Dapol Western has buffer centres at 12.8mm. They should really be 13.8mm. Quite why they are a whole 1mm too low I don't know. The Ultrascale wheels are 14.4mm in diameter (at least the P4 diesel disc ones are, I assume the conversion pack uses the same tyres?) whereas the Dapol OO wheels are 13.6mm in diameter so a straight wheel conversion should move the buffer centres up to 13.2mm.

Hi Phil,

Hopefully this explianation wont decend into waffle. There is a single shaft that leads from the main brake cross shaft to a crank which is between the vacumm cylinders. This sends out shafts to both the clasp brakes but on one side (the other side of the vacuum clinders) there is another crank that reverses the direction the shaft travels in. You can just about make out both of the cranks in the close up picture of the vacuum cylinders in post #23. Otherwise as you've noted one set of brakes would be pulled off when the other set is pushed on. The brake arrangemant is basically the BR 8 shoe clasp brake with a slightly different arrangement of cranks and different brackets. The picture below might help? In this case the two cranks between the main brake cross shaft and the clasp brakes are on the same side rather than either side.

edited for clarity (hopefully!)

Justin

Of course there's more than one way to P4 a Dapol Western. My Ultrascale wheels arrived ages ago and work on the conversion continues. Fully sprung with leaf spring primaries and working secondary bolster springs.  I had intended to put these under my Western Empress (Sovereign) but with the imminent arrival Western Druid (Legionaire) I think they'll go under her instead.

Justin

That's a lovely piece of work, Justin; I wish I had the patience (and the asbestos fingers) do carry out work like that in brass. I'll have to carry on cut'n'shutting Red Panda underframes for mine.

Thanks Brian. It did take some time to put together but not as long as it took to do the artwork which still needs tweaking. Asbestos fingers do help enormously but I find they come with lots of soldering practise anyway!

Justin

The 10' wheelbase examples were built in the mid 70s to diagram 1/194 using redundant 17'6" underframes. This meant that the bodies were also longer that the standard 16T minerals.

While on the subject of models here's a P4 one I recently put together. It's an unfitted BR clasp braked 1/108. There were about 2000 of these built with all the fittings for vacuum braking but without the cylinders or pipes. The undeframe is from my own etch with MJT catsings for the axleboxes and springs and Lanarkshire 1'81/2" Oleo buffers. It just needs screw couplings and then a trip to the paint shop.

Michael I've got the 9' Parkside underframe that came with the above wagon body that you can have to replace the incorrect 10' one if you want it? It's complete and untouched.

Justin

Of course it is!  That doesn't mean that you shouldn't start to worry though. After all next you'll be worrying about which type of chassis bracing your LMS milk tank had or what sort of ladder fixing arrangement it has and that way lies the path to madness...

I wouldn't worry about turning into a rivet counter. I would worry though when the size of the rivets starts to become important...

Hi davyjcrow,

Nice work. That paint job looks especially good. Can I ask you where you got the laserglaze done?

Justin

Stewart Blencowe of Gloucester (Google him) will sell you a WTT for the area and period of your choice. Within the publication will be the relevant details that you are looking for and a lot more too.

Thanks Dave. I've got some working timetables for my location (Cardiff District) and period (1964/5) but it's always good to have another avenue for getting hold of these things. I'd quite like a section F timetable and also trip working booklets for Cardiff for the same period. I'll have a look.

Justin

A= bound for a destination in the London Division

B =bound for a destination in the Bristol Division

C= bound for a destination in the Plymouth Division (later modified to B and C was then used for South Wales)

M=bound for a destination in the Midland Region. This would include all the former Great Western stations absorbed into the Midland region, so trains to Snow Hill Carried M as their destination.

E=bound for a destination in the Eastern Region

V=bound for the Western Region (inter regional working)

Z=Special Working

X=Royal Working and also Pway workings

F=South Wales destination (Later changed to C)

T,F=Hereford

O=bound for the Southern Region

Beware changes that occured over time though. In the mid sixties T was Cardiff district, F was Swansea and also K was Gloucester. The way certain trains were classified, and therefore the number they were given, was also change at some point (edit: 1969 according to the website I linked earlier). The relevant working timetables for the period in question are the best reference.

Justin

Can anyone point me to where I can find information on the supplied head-code destinations and how they correlate with the prototype?

The best place to find the information would be in the working timetables of the day. The headcode or train reporting numbers changed over time. There's some basic stuff here. I've got one of the Green Westerns and one of the numbers included is 1A68 which would be an express passenger train heading for the London district, most likely Paddington. You'd have to find an appropriate working timetable to find out exactly which train it was (or trains as headcodes weren't necessarily unique).

Justin  

Further to my postings regarding Marshfield I'd forgotten about my copies of the Winter 63/4 and 64/5 section E, class 1-6 working timetables. In both the only Up milk train is 3A27. In 1963/4 this was the 3.50pm Whitland to Wood Lane and Kensington. By the following year it had been retimed to leave Whitland at 4.15pm. In both cases the train called at Cardiff General and then Severn Tunnel Junction station. It did not call at Marshfield nor at any other points other than the two mentioned. This suggests that the Marshfield milk tanks were attached at Cardiff General or maybe in the sidings opposite Canton at this time. There is no mention of any trains calling at Marshfield in either timetable which suggests the milk tank service was still a trip working as it had been in the fifties. 

Justin

A bit more information on the photos I refered to earlier now I've had chance to get to my books.

The picture of the Large Prarie is on page 2 of The South Wales Main Line Volume 1.The loco carries the target H14 and is hauling 5 milk tanks (4 GWR and 1 LMS, all platform fitted) and a Toad along the Down Main near Marshfield.

The picture of the Grange on an empty up milk train is on page 43 of The South Wales Main Line Volume 4.

The picture of the Teddy Bear I refered to was published in Hornby Magaizine's review of the Heljan Class 14. It's dated 8th June 1966 and shows the Teddy bear propelling 4 platform fitted tanks (1 LMS, 2 GWR and 1 SR) and a BR brake van along the Down Main approaching Rumney river bridge.

The pictures of the Hymek at Marshfield are on page 93 of The Power of the Hymeks. They are dated 18th August 1968. The full service consits of three tanks (2 LMS and a GWR) and a Stanier brake van about to set off along the Down Main for Cardiff.

Justin

Thining further about the Llangadock service if it ran as class C from Pontardulais then it's likely to have been a full service with the milk originating in West Wales somewhere and so wouldn't have gone anywhere near Cardiff. This ties in to me reading somewhere that the facility at Llangadock didn't send much milk out by rail but instead recived it. I can't remember what the creamery specialised in.

Justin

A recent purchase has made me revive this topic.

I've just bought a copy of the excellent 'The Red Dragon.. and other old friends' which has many interesting photos in it. Amongst them are some which show how the creamery at Llangadog was served;-

On pages 292/293 are a pair of photos, taken on 2nd August 1958, of the 7:48 Llanelly- Llangadock (these were the contemporary spellings). The train is composed of two 57xx panniers, an LMS 12t van, three road-rail milk tankers, and some unidentifiable passenger coaches. The train apparently carried passengers to Pontardulais, thence running as a Class C to Llangadock. A locomotive change took place at Pantyffynnon.

This cleared up another mystery- I'd seen photos, taken in Western Cardiff, of an Up milk with some road-rail tanks in it, but couldn't work out where these had come from, as all the Creameries I knew that used rail loaded rail wagons on site.

I presume the tankers were attached to the Up Milk at Felin Fran, where a Landore Castle was booked to replace the Neyland County.

There is another 'Milk Train' shot on page 264, which I find curious. Taken on 22/07/1952, It shows what is claimed to be the Carmarthen- Marshfield milk, composed of a Castle, a Great Western Full Brake, and three Siphon Js. There are no other vehicles present.

Ro-Rail tanks were quite commom on workings from South Wales up until their demise in the early sixties. If you look through John Hodge's books on the South Wales Main line there are a number of photos of the Whitland to Kensington (mainly) and they feature quite often. Going by the diagrams of some of the vehicles around them in the formation most of them seemed to be United Dairies vehicles which means they would have came from somewhere other than Llangadock, which was CWS. I suspect that some of the time the ro-rail tanks were simply used as 2000(?) gallon milk tanks.

I'm not convinced by the caption in the Red Dragon about the Camarthen to Marshfield milk servce. A working timetable for the period would be good. It could be possible that there was a working from Camarthen to Marshfield that then went on to London. It could be that the Siphon J's were carying other dairy products (?) or were being moved in conjunction with something else and that the service was in fact running empty at that point. I believe that the services ran whether there were any milk tanks to haul or not. There's a picture in one of John Hodge's SWML books of a Grange going past Margam on a milk service with just a full brake in tow so that the brake van was kept in it's circuit.

Before the advent of MAS the Up (full) Marshfield services reversed in the station and connected with London services at Cardiff. There's a nice picture in the South Wales Main Line Volume 1 of a Large Prarie pulling half a dozen milk tanks along the down main heading for Cardiff. Once the resignalling had been completed the trains could not reverse at Marshfield so, until the late 60sat least, propelled the milk tanks along the down main to Cardiff. I've seen a picture of a Teddy Bear doing this taken at the Rumney river bridge in 1966. Ther's also a nice sequence of pictures in the Power of the Hymeks showing a Hymek arriving at Marshfield with a couple of empty tanks along the Up main and then departing brake van first along the Down main with three full milk tanks. I have no idea if they connected with the London services at Pengam or Newtown or maybe even at the milk depot opposite Canton loco. Whilst on the subject of Marshfield the operation there was started by the rather grandly titled Cambrian United Dairies which became/was part of United Dairies and laterly of course Unigate.

Justin

Still, theres a motor and chunky chassis block that's useable.

 

Anywho, as above, back to the Dapol version..... I'll put any Lima based ramblings over on my thread. Before I do theough, if anyone has a, (very), cheap Lima one, please feel free to PM and feed the fire.....

 

If you really want to try sorting the Lima model out Howes currently have spares for the Heljan Western including the bits for the drivetrains.

Justin.

My green Dapol Western turned up on Saturday and has spent the past few days sat next to my Heljan example. The longer it sits there the worse the Heljan model looks. The Dapol model looks much more like a Western, particularly in the front area. The curves look like they're in the right places which cannot be said of the Heljan ones and I'm not just talking about the infamous 'peak'. The Heljan model looks particularly flat below the cab windows. Some other observations based on what's been written in this thread. Interestingly, after measuring them with a vernier caliper, the openings for the headcode glazing on the Dapol model are actually a tiny bit bigger than the Heljan ones. The hole for the roof fan grill on the Dapol model is 14mm in diameter. They've done the usual RTR thing with etching a surround on the grill so making it smaller. There are areas with which I'm a little disapointed, the main one being the paint finish which is horribly flat and matt. So that's one bit of it that doesn't look like the real thing then. Another is the brakes as the inner shoes have been moulded to the boige detailing and set for OO wheels. No good for P4 conversions or EM ones for that matter. Whilst on wheels I always thought that Western wheels were 3'7" so why aren't the wheels on both the models 14.33mm in diameter?

All in all I think it's a fantastic model which with a couple of additions (roof grills and a winscreen etch) and a P4 conversion will certainly do me. Most importantly it looks like a Western. Something that previous models haven't achieved.

So if you want top notch out of the box Western buy a Dapol model. If you want a top notch Western and are prepared to do a little work buy the Dapol model as you're going to have to spend a whole heap of time and effort getting any of the others looking this good.

Justin

I do have a spare Deltic chassis which could yield a transmission and motor and if the bogie wheelbase is the same or similar?.....

 

The Western wheelbase was 6'1" + 6'1" so a good deal smaller than the English Electric 3 axle bogie. As far as I can know there are no other British diesels with a similar wheelbase.

... and that's how the clever ones do it!

 

... yet more tricks to learn!

 

I presume yours will be fully sprung Justin 

Of course! The primary springs should be straight forward but the secondary suspension could be interesting to say the least. I spent some time looking at the bogies on the one at the NRM before christmas and I have visions of those little coil springs working for a living.  That's not to say I'll be able to make it work but I'll give it a go!

Hmm, EM is still only halfway. Grumble... I did vote twice as I'll need to buy two sets to convert two locos.

If they don't get the required number you could always make your own conversion set? Ultrascale make a Western diesel disc wheel for a very good price. I've got 2 P4 sets waiting for Empress and Druid to arrive. Add a piercing saw or hacksaw blade, some shorting strips (Brassmasters) and some 2mm inside diameter plastic tube for use as spacers and away you go. If the wheels are good enough and you can get them off you could consider just replacing the stub axles. Ultrascale (again) now supply axle material in 2mm diameter. I assume of course that the axles are 2mm.

As always in matters of taste, one must preface ones remarks with "IMHO"...

The "Duchesses", in any unstreamlined form, have a much better balanced appearance than the "Princess Royals". For want of a better word, the latter class strike me as gaunt. "What's a Princess Royal other than a 4-6-2 Jubilee?"  An overstretched "Castle"?

 

Gordon

More an overstretched King I think. The Princess Royals were not well balanced at all and look a bit ungainly. The bogie needs moving backwards a few feet and the whole thing shortening, like they did with the Duchesses. The Jubilees were handsome machines but the best of them (IMHO) were Comet and Pheonix with their 2A boilers. If we hadn't had the BR standards then all the Jubilees would have ended up like that along with the Patriots. Instead we got the best looking of the BR Standards, the Brits.

Justin

Congratulations to Dave and everyone involved in the project the finished article looks great. It'll look even better when those little coil springs work properly and it's sat in front of a rake of milk tanks.  The green looks a bit odd in some of those photos, almost grey, but then photos do funny things sometimes. There seems to be a lot more depth to it than the paintwork on the class 22 though which can only be a good thing. Can't wait for mine to arrive, nameplates and CAD program all ready!