jjnewitt

Geoff Kent also covered the Palbricks in one of his 4mm Wagon books (Wild Swan)

Construction was covered in Volume 1. The wagon illustrated is a Palbrick A. There are also further pictures of his Palbrick As in Volume 3 including a nice colour shot of one on the back cover. 

Justin

and plenty of detail photos in http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoilz  A devil of a wagon to measure, it would be nice to see a model made from the drawing. Personally I never saw one loaded.

 

As to the lovely model of the Strip coil, I was surprised that you had to do all of that drilling, I thought an advantage of etch kits is that such work should already have been done. As to where they worked, don't overlook they were maintained at Swindon http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brstripcoil/e3965cea5

 

As mentioned they worked to North Wales, I didn't see any loaded, as Trev did, but here is another at Chester wagon works http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brstripcoil/e3e86bc2f

 

Paul

The strips that are etched do already have the holes in them. Adam has drilled out the solid piece of plastic used he's used to represent the section beneath the strip. There are other ways of doing it and it's not the way I envisaged but it looks good.

I found the picture I refered to earlier of the loaded Slab Coils. They aren't particularly clear but can just about be seen between D6904 and the brake van. I have a print of this photo and they come up clearer in that. 

Justin

I doubt that I'll ever be brave enough to consider doing one from scratch though, given a proper jig it should be doable, but the amount of milled angle and section you would need hardly bears thinking about; getting it wrong would be expensive. All that assumes finding sufficient information to create a decent drawing of course. Still, on the basis of the Strip Coil, I'm looking forward to the Coil V when you get around to it, and the Shochood B, even if the latter runs the risk of putting my humble effort firmly in the shade.

 

Adam

There's the drawing in BR wagons Vol.1 for the Slab Coil which would provide a start. They've been done in 2mm for Ynysarwed Sidings. Don't fancy doing them in 2mm myself! I must get around to putting together the test etch for the Shochood B. It looks nice on the fret. I will have to see how well it builds!

Jutsin

It's on P116; I mis-remembered the loco, though- it's a Grange.

Ah I see. I hadn't noticed they were Strip Coils! Yes not much through freight on that line. If they'd tried to send the full wagons that way it would have been a struggle and would have needed something with a bit more power than a Grange and probably a banker. I wonder if the Swansea district line was closed for engineering works on the day that was taken?

Justin 

That photo of them at Landore has a somewhat misleading caption, describing them as an 'engineer's train'- quite unusual to see a through freight on this line, due to the gradients towards Cockett Tunnel in both directions. The train would have had to be sent into Llandeilo Junction yard, as there's no direct connection from Trostre sidings into the Gowerton line; the access is via the original Llanelly Dock and Railway route, thence the District Line.

Not sure we're taking about the same photo. The one I was refering to is on page 277 in The Red Dragon... and was taken at Ponlliw on the Swansea district line.

That would make sense and, of I recall, the differences in the cradle dimensions was really quite small. It's interesting that you point to Mike's (Stationmaster's) thread. Just above that shot, in the background of another at Port Talbot on the same post, showing D1051, appears to be at least two bogie slab coils carrying coil. I don't recall ever seeing another picture of those loaded with anything though clearly that was what they were designed for.

Well spotted. I missed that! I'm sure I've seen another picture of the Slab Coils loaded but I can't find it at the moment. The picture was of a loco at Canton and in the background was a rake of Slab Coils on the main line. I'm sure they were loaded. If I find it I'll let you know.

Whilst looking for it I did find a couple of photos of our Strip and Slab Coil wagons working together:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/camperdown/8440246883/in/set-72157626215122619

http://www.flickr.com/photos/briantrailandmore/6766401849/in/set-72157635910263844

Those Slab Coils are great. Maybe one day if I'm feeling really brave!

Justin

I get the impression from photographs that initially coil wagons did generally work specific routes and the return to brandings were honoured. Where they worked to may be a different matter and of course would have changed as traffic patterns changed. The only two photos I've seen of these 42T Strip Coils in traffic in the 50s/60s show loaded wagons heading west on the South Wales main line. One appeared in post #18 of this thread on this forum and the other appears in The Red Dragon and Other Friends which shows a rake behind a 7200 on the Swansea district line. Both of these suggest that their use in traffic to the tinplate works at Velindre and Tostre is correct for the period. The bogie Coil Es were initially branded "To work between S.C.O.W. Abbey works and Orb Works Newport Mon" which makes electrical steel. Perhaps this traffic is why the cradles were of a different size to the very similar Boigie Coil Gs? 

I must get around to painting my Strip Coil. It's still in primer.

Justin

Edited as I can't get my compass points the right way around! 

I remember these wagons being used to bring coil to what was originally the Steel Company of Wales' Trostre Works; the oldest photo of them that I've seen in traffic was in 1958, being hauled by an ex-GWR 2-8-0t at Landore. Did they ever work anywhere apart from to Trostre and Velindre, I wonder?

Trevon Mann's new book states that they worked to Ebbw Vale as well and also to Shotton briefly in the early eighties. Paul Bartlett's site has a photo of one at Severn Tunnel Junction in the late seventies. No idea where it was working to/from though.

I'm a little vague on the nature of the traffic between works; if there was a connection, what was it? In the meantime, on this foul day, here's a picture of an earlier project, now completed. My interpretation of the Southern's pent-roofed van:

They conveyed steel for tinplate. Hence going to Velindre and Tostre.

Justin 

Nice variation for modelling, French one, 'normal' one, slope sided - and that's just the first 3 wagons

The second one is a riveted 1/105 or 1/109. The fourth is an LNER (1/103) type. The first 'normal' one is the fith. The sixth looks to be a wooden 13T. Plenty of variation. Who said all 16T minerals were the same!

Justin 

 

hey you dont hear me complainin, done some yourself too, like the Marylebone one above

 

I didnt spot it last page to be honest.

 

the Heathfield one is a cracker, dont see it modelled like that.

he's got some great shots, I like this one..

 

Minor Derailment at Brighton Station, 1962 by Ian D Nolan, on Flickr

 

Nice picture. It's got a replacement side door from a riveted 16T mineral.

115 116 118 121 123 124 (leaving off MTK's renditions) 126 127 ?

My personal preference would be for any or all of 116, 119, 120 and 123 in 4mm. Given the dearth of the longer 1st generation DMUs I'm sure most of the types would be welcome.

Justin 

No more locomotives, there are enough of them around already.

1st geration long wheelbase DMUs

1950s/60s era wagons that have not previously appeared in model form either as a kit or RTR please!

In 4mm for me but I'm sure this equally apples to other scales.

Justin

Edited for clarity

Hi Justin

 

Wow excellent work.

 

I would slightly disagree with your ratio of model types, mainly because the little blighters in real life would not keep to the same ratio when in a train.

 

Seriouly it is a good guide for those modelling the 1960s when most of these would be seen together.

Hi Clive,

Yes of sourse there would have been wild variation from the numbers I suggested for a train but the figures do make the point that not all minerals were 1/108s. This is all a rough guide but hopefully it will provide a useful insight into the 16T mineral fleet for some. It has for me at least. I can reasonably get away with building more non-'standard' types than I thought. 

Justin

No pictures or models but perhaps some useful information. I've recently been developing a number of 16T mineral wagon chassis and I thought it would be interesting to see just how the BR 16T mineral fleet broke down into different types. I have posted this elsewhere but I thought this would be a good place to put is as well.

The wagons are arranged by body and brake type rather than diagram number as these are the most obvious differences for us modellers. I cannot guarantee the complete accuracy of the figures. The lists from which I got the numbers do have some errors in them and the figures themselves have been rounded slightly (as well as there being the possibility of errors in my adding) but they will at least give a flavour of how things were and how your model 16T mineral fleet should roughly break down.

I have assumed the ‘standard’ mineral wagon was a welded body with top doors and Morton 2 shoe brake vehicle. Wagons are assumed to have top doors unless noted. The figures include wagons built for LMS and LNER orders as well as the Ministry of Transport (M.O.T.).

The following gives the situation in 1959 at the completion of the building program. The ‘standard’ mineral dominates but not perhaps by as much as you would think. The figures are for the total number built and percentage of the total fleet.

M.O.T, independent, slope sided          1/100                                      7900                2.55%

M.O.T, independent, straight sided       1/101 & 1/113                         900                  0.29%

French type, independent                     1/112                                      7000                2.26%

Welded, independent, no top door        1/102                                      21600              6.98%

Welded, independent                            1/104, 1/106, 1/108, 1/111     20550              6.63%

Welded, Morton (‘standard’)                  1/106, 1/108, 1/111, 1/114     200900           64.88%

                                                              1/116, 1/117

Welded, unfitted clasp                           1/108, 1/117                           1900                0.61%

Welded, vacuum fitted clasp                  1/108, 1/117                           11350              3.67%

Riveted, independent, no top door        1/103                                       7850               2.54%

Riveted, independent                            1/105, 1/109                            5200               1.68%

Riveted, Morton                                     1/109                                       24300             7.85%

Riveted, vacuum fitted clasp                  1/109                                       200                 0.06%

Total                                                                                                      309650

Obviously these figures will have varied over time. The earlier you go the less ‘standard’ and clasp braked minerals there would be as we will see in a moment. The later you go the less independent braked types there would have been. The M.O.T. and French types for example had all but gone by the mid-sixties. The four shoe vacuum brake conversions would also need to be added in from 1966.

The following gives the rough situation around the start of 1955. There were of course orders in progress at the time so the figures for the ‘standard’ and riveted Morton wagons are a best guess.

M.O.T, independent, slope sided          1/100                                       7900                4.58%

M.O.T, independent, straight sided       1/101 & 1/113                          900                  0.52%

French type, independent                     1/112                                       7000                4.06%

Welded, independent, no top door        1/102                                       21600            12.52%

Welded, independent                            1/104, 1/106, 1/108, 1/111      20550            11.91%

Welded, Morton (‘standard’)                  1/106, 1/108, 1/111, 1/114      86500            50.13%

                                                              1/116, 1/117

Riveted, independent, no top door        1/103                                       7850                4.55%

Riveted, independent                            1/105, 1/109                             5200               3.01%

Riveted, Morton                                     1/109                                       15050              8.72%

Total                                                                                                      172550

So what does this all mean? Well if you model circa 1960 and have 30 steel minerals on your layout then roughly 10 of them should be non-‘standard’ types with perhaps 2 welded, independent, no top door; 2 welded, independent and 2 riveted types. If you model circa 1955 then roughly half of your steel mineral fleet should be non-‘standard' types. Perhaps ‘standard’ wasn’t quite so standard…

All this information is in a handy download and keep word document attached to this post.

Justin

16T Mineral Fleet Survey.doc

The shot of W8075 is of interest - to me, at any rate.  What, one might ask, is a full first doing at PPRD next to an auto trailer?

 

The answer, I think, stems from the abolition of first class on London suburban services during World War 2.  A lot of the 8 compartment firsts were sent out into the country and declassified.  Many ended up in South Wales, particularly in the Newport Division, and show up in photographs well into the 1950s.  Henry Casserley photographed one at Tredegar in July 1958 whilst in South Wales for a SLS railtour.  It looks as though it was formed in a workmen's train.  Coal miners travelling first class?!  Why W8075 still has its first class markings in 1952 is a puzzle.  

 

The coach next to it is a Hawksworth suburban third, almost straight out of the box.  It does not have the lining that was abolished at around that time.

 

Methinks the Stationmaster is sitting on a treasure trove!

 

Chris

Hi Chris,

There was a daily workman's train to Glascoed which passed through Pontypool Road which was mainly formed of non-corridor coaches. It's possible that this is the train featured in the picture of W8075. Mike G of this parish has been building coaches for it to run on Little Mill Junction. There's a fireman's account of the train on the Newport Model Railway Society's webpages.

Justin

Interesting photo of the Milk Tank. Numbers 2001-12 were built under diagram O.23 for United Dairies in 1927. They were quite short and I think had a 10' 6" wheelbase. Numbers 2001-10 were converted to diagram O.44 in 1936 whilst 2011/2 were converted to diagram O.38, again in 1936. Converted might in fact be a bit misleading as I don't think much aside from the tank survived. There are some nice pictures of these wagons in their 4 wheel state in the British Railways Illustrated article "On the Milk". The tanks on the O.23 were owned by the diary and continued to be way byond conversion to six wheel vehicles. The original writing on them was as follows:

  Glass Lined 

United Dairies

  Milk Tank

If anyone is interested in milk tank diagrams there is a download available from the rescources section on my website.

Justin

Interesting picture of the slip coach, but I cannot work out where it was taken. It looks like it's heading away from Bath with that background.

The buildings in the background look like the area around the bottom of Bathwick Hill to me. I think the photo was taken somewhere between the bridge over the Avon on the eastern side of the station and the bridge over the A36.

Justin

 It seems that to get the right effect with springing you will need to add a fair amount of ballast to the wagon. I think 50g per axle is specified by some people.

On the majority of sprung wagon chassis I've come across it's 25g per axle. There's no reason why you couldn't arrange for the suspension to work on 50g per axle but you'd have a hard job getting 100g into a 4mm Lowfit. The right effect depends on how the suspension is set up. I'm convinced that a lot of sprung chassis don't really know what they are doing when it comes to deflections and weights.

The wire seems to be quite thin. I wonder if it is guitar string or something softer - hence the 25g per axle spec.. I can see how you would easily get fed up with the moving parts. How on earth is the chassis to be painted without gumming up the suspension?!

The wire in the chassis is Ernie Ball 0.008" steel guitar wire. It is indeed very thin but this was necessary with the way I wanted to do the spring carriers and the distances between fulcum (spring and chassis interface) points. The following photo shows the arrangement of the spring carriers. The wire is simply soldered into a half etched slot. 

One way of painting a sprung chassis is to remove the wheels. You can arrange to make the axle guards/tiebars removeable on my chassis if you wish to allow the wheels and spring carriers to simply drop out. I appreciate that this is more hassle than it's worth to most people but it is the approach I use and am happy with. See photo above.

PS: the way you get that many wagons is by not wasting time building locos or carriages.

I like your thinking Adam! Nice to see one of these things being built by someone else.

Justin

Still waiting for the Western bogie release.

I suggest you get comfy then Ivan, I'm still waiting for possible brakes for them to materialise as I have stated... 

Justin

In terms of traffic variety the answer is simple: The South Wales main line. There was very little that wasn't carried along the line.

Express trains for London

Cross country services

Local services

Boat trains

Pullman trains (in BR days)

Parcels, fish, milk, bannana trains, vegeatble traffic in season

And then we get to freight.

Minerals of all types 

Coal, some more coal and then a bit more coal

Coke, iron ore, sand and stone

Steel in all its forms including tinplate and coil

Oil of various types

Wood

General merchandise

It goes on and on... About he only thing didn't get carried was china clay.

The section between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel junction had one of the densest traffic flows in the country. Paddington may have had all the glamourous passenger services but lacked the heavy freight as did the South West and the aformentioned regional interchanges. I'd be suprsied if there was somewhere in else in the country let alone on the GWR that saw the variety of traffic that the South Wales main line did.

Justin

Justin,

 

Just wondered if there has been any progress with the underframes and detailing bits for the LNER Milk Tank wagons.

 

Thanks,

Some progree has been made. The artwork for the underframe is finished but the detailing parts still need to be draw up. It's in the queue but will be after the equivalent SR milk tank parts. I've been distracted by wagon underframes recently and also instruction writing, which seems to take forever, so progress on this has been slow but I will return to the milk tanks soon.

Justin 

New items are now available to order. These include:

Fully sprung single bolster coach bogies for EM and P4. There are five types initially: BR1 and Comonwealth for Mk1s and GWR 7', 9' heavy duty and 9' pressed steel.

The first of many Morton braked chassis. 17'6" over headstock, 10' wheelbase for vans and opens etc with either BR or RCH W-Irons. 16'6" over headstocks, 9' wheelbase for 16T welded 1/108 type minerals.

BR 42T Strip Coil wagon.

For further details, including prces and ordering instructions, see the Rumney Models webpages

Justin

There looks to be a few single bolsters in the picture. As well the one mentioned in the foreground there looks to be one eighth wagon in along that rake as well as the one sandwiched between two bogie bolster in the rake to the left.

Justin 

Nice. But what class of loco is hidden behind 24107? A Class 50 maybe?

Looks like an 08 to me. Possibly 08620.

Justin

No aparently about the BR fish van. Hornby have used a picture of a 1/801 in their publicity photos and are producing a 1/800.

Hi All,

Over the past few months I have been working on a number of etches, primarily for my own 4mm P4 needs. I am now in a postion to accept orders for a number of items including sprung milk tank chassis, milk tank detailing parts, sprung BR 8 shoe clasp brake chassis and sprung diesel bogie bits. Further information can be found here:

www.rumneymodels.co.uk

There are also details of forthcoming items such as fully sprung single bolster coach bogies.

Many thanks,

Justin Newitt