jjnewitt

Not sure about train lift. It's not going to go far before it crashes into the the walkways and it doesn't look like there's anywhere for it to go. 

Twin end discharge tippler for some sort of bogie wagon? Two wagons emptying into the middle, one from each side? 

Justin

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But surely dominant is exactly what it ought to be?

Surely it depends on how you view things? Context is everything. The viaducts may dominate if you stand at the bottom and look at nothing else but if you put them against the land that surrounds them then they don't dominate at all, the land dominates and the railway looks almost little lost going through it. 

Justin

On 14/01/2020 at 00:36, watfordtmc said:

Brixham remains a significant fishing port, but evidence of any Insulfish vans on the Western Region is hard to come by. 

Hard to come by maybe but the Insulfish vans did work on the South Wales flows. Both the BR diagrams could be seen along with the 12' wheelbase ex LNER wooden solebar wagons. A couple of pictures off the top of my head:

Page 72 of The South Wales Main Line Volume 4 by John Hodge. A pair of 1/801s with a Mk1 BG sandwiched between at the head of a Miford Haven to Weymouth fish service in 1961.

Page 61 of Working Steam: Collett and Hawksworth Halls by Roy Hobbs. Several Insulfish vans in an empty milk and fish wokring at Newtown Goods in Cardiff in 1963. The leading two vehicles are 1/800s. 

Gerald T Robinson had a couple of photos on Flickr that showed Insulfish vans in West Wales but his account no long seems to exist which is a shame. 

Justin

Rumney Models is on the move. This seems to be an almost biennial event but hopefully the following address will remain current for a good while. From now on please direct all mailed correspondence to:

Rumney Models

Bryanstone

Glewstone

Ross-on-Wye

Herefordshire

HR9 6AW

Given that we are moving there may be a slight delay in mail order services, particularly around this weekend (13th-16th). This also applies to any emails. Normal service will be resumed as quickly as possible.

I’d also like to take the opportunity to wish everyone a Happy Christmas and New Year. Rumney Models has lots of exciting plans for 2020 so watch this space, as they say.

Justin

3 hours ago, 2mmKiwi said:

Could anyone direct me to a listed of diagrams and their wagon numbers for GWR/ Ex GWR diagrams?

In particular I'm looking for the range on numbers for Diagram 051

The following list should give you what you need.

http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Downloads-Milk-Tank-Diagrams.pdf

It needs updating as I've subsequently filled in some of the gaps and the prototype information at the beginning isn't quite right but the information for the O.51s is correct.

Justin

4 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

As we have seen, the EE Type 3 was already under trial in South Wales in 1962 so must have been ordered for the WR not long after. It's difficult to see how BP could have seen a green light to order equipment when they were only 2/3  through delivering their existing order, and it is on record they approached BRB about potential for further orders in 1963 - when the EE Type 3 must have already been on order.

According to the Wikipedia page for the EE type 3s the order for the first Western Region batch was placed in July 1962 (EE works order CCP 1304, 100 locos, D6819-D6918). 

I imagine the main reason for the over provision of locos was simply down to loss of the work for which they were intended. The Beeching Report was of course a reaction to that loss of traffic on the railways. The Railways at the time always seemed to be a step behind what was needed in a fast changing world. The Swindon type 1s were a classic case. When they were envisioned there was a need for that kind of loco but that need had all but gone by the time they (finally) appeared.

justin

It’s not Worsley Works. I had a set of their 52xx etched once and they looked nothing like the ones you have. They were much more basic. 

They definitely have a Malcom Mitchell style to them. I believe he did a set of 7mm etches and some 4mm reductions were done, or perhaps it was the other way around.  The writing looks to have been added after the tool had been created, it’s all a bit wonky. The initials on the fret may not be a reliable indicator of who drew it. 

Justin 

13 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

The BRB also reflected on the maintenance and reliability issues and began to look at traction on a national basis as one unit in March 1963. So the issue on Hymeks v EE Type 3 and Western v Brush Type 4 are likely to have been decided at this time. The National Traction Plan first appeared in 1965. 

Given that D6742 and D6743 arrived at Canton for crew training purposes in September 62 ahead of delivery of the Western Region's own batch (which started in March 63), I think that the decision on EE Type 3s v Hymeks had been made well before then and possibly not long after the creation of the BRB.

Justin

18 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

or Jestin wingnut Might just revive his etch in time for Christmas.

 

In time for Christmas might be pushing it but I did have a good look at the artwork again in light of the news. I might get a test etch done in the new year. 

Justin

Interesting development. I particularly like the area around the tanks, often a weak point on diesels. They actually look like they're suspended underneath the loco by brackets rather than being a plastic lump protruding from the body... The cutouts and pipework look good as well. I spent ages doing all this to a Bachmann example.

Nothing for me in the first batch but as and when green South Wales machines appear (perhaps even including an RSH example) then I'll be buying a few. 

Justin

Cow & Gate milk tanks:

GWR O.52 built 1942

Lot 1672    Numbers 2964-2966

Lot 1676    Numbers 2969-2974

Lot 1677    Numbers 2995-3000

GWR O.55 built 1946

Lot 1697    Numbers 1978-83

GWR O.58 built 1947 (1st batch) twin tank originally built for Dried Milk Products Co. Ltd (Lostwithiel) but taken over by Cow & Gate

Lot 1717    Numbers 3023-8

Lot 1742    Numbers 3120-3

GWR O.63 built 1950

Lot 1757    Numbers 3159-65

LMS D.1994 Jenkinson says built 1932 but seems quite early compared to the GWR ones. 

Lot 668      Numbers 44250-2

Lots and numbers taken from various sources including the diagrams at the NRM. Possibly not a complete list but giives a good idea. 

Cow and Gate became the gate part of Unigate in 1959.

I've never seen a Nestle Anglo Swiss tank in pre war livery. Has anyone come across one?

Justin

1 minute ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

 Ta-dah!

 

P

Yours are already packed up and will go in the post on Monday. :-) 

J 

After a mammoth packing session all the items that I announced earlier this month are now in stock. Prices are as follows:

• E.07 Gresley 8’6” light bogie subframe - £13 per pair
• E.101 BR coach bogie kit (single and light double bolster for Mk1 stock) - £26 per pair
• X.07 GER Y14 / LNER J15 loco chassis - £38
• X.08 GER S23 tender underframe - £13
• X.09 GER Z.14 tender underframe - £14
• X.10 GWR / BR(W) P22 ‘Herring’ ballast hopper - £34

As usual with Rumney Models products any springing wire is included. The BR coach bogies (E.101) and P22 hopper (X.10) also include all castings.

All these are included in the latest price list (September 2019) which can now be found on my website via the ordering page.

The S23 and Z14 tender etches will be available in brass as standard but I have a limited number both frets in nickel silver which will be available for a surcharge. You will need to add £1.20 for the S.23 tender and £1.60 for the Z14 tender to the above prices. I also have 1 set of P22 hopper etches in nickel silver which are available for an additional £4.20. Nickel silver seems to be about 40% more expensive at the moment. They are available while stocks last. If you wish to order any of the above nickel silver frets by post please email first to check availability.

Finally a reminder that the following Miscellany Models products will be available from the Rumney Models stand at Scaleforum:

• Highland Railway/LMS/BR diagram 51 full brake - £48
• Fully sprung Fox coach bogies - £16
• MR/LMS/BR Diagram 530 passenger brake - £36
• NER/LNER/BR Diagram P7 hopper wagon detailing - £13.50

I’ll look forward to seeing some of you at Scaleforum next weekend.

Justin

20 minutes ago, SP Steve said:

Interestingly the BR diagram book shows them as lettered CARFLAT P and the stated use for these vehicles was to carry two BP type containers  to Diagram 3/170 so that is presumably what is illustrated in the two images.

 

The only thing against 1/096 is that according to the Diagram book the wooden flooring was removed to reveal the underframe but in all other respects it fits the bill.

Don Rowland does say that they were originally Carflat P. Persumably the change in code was down to someone realising that they were actually Conflats not Carflats?

There is indeed no wooden floor on wagons to diagram 1/096 but to me none of the images show a wooden floor on the wagons anyway. There definately isn't one on the wagon in the image in Michael Welch's book. The angle the image is taken at clearly shows that. Looking at the top image there might be a wooden floor on the container though? It does looks like the area on the top of the wagon between the pallets has been plated over and perhaps also at the ends but his wouldn't necessarily make a difference to the diagram.

Justin

The wagon in question is a Conflat BP. I happen to stumble across a picture of half of one of them this morning on page 17 of Steam Across the Northern Fells by Michael S. Welch. The wagon is clearly the one in the first post of this thread with the same open pallets and Gresley bogies. It's labelled in freshly applied white paint CONFLAT-BP.

Larkin and Rowland tell us that these were one batch of these built under lot 3370 to diagram 1/096 at Cowlairs between 10/60 and 12/62. Rowland suggests 30 were built but 33 numbers issued B748428-B748460. Larkin suggests 40 numbers B748428-B748467.

Justin

Autumn is fast approaching and this one will bring a bumper crop of new releases from Rumney Models. Instead of leaving everything to the last minute as usually seems to happen I thought I’d let everyone know what will be coming their way in a few weeks a little more in advance this time. Further details and prices will be announced a little closer to the time when the next catalogue is issued but the following will be available at Scaleforum. All are 4mm scale and are only suitable for EM/P4 unless stated otherwise.

GWR/BR(W) P22 ‘Herring’ ballast hopper kit

A full kit for this diminutive ballast hopper which could be found all over the Western region as well as further afield. The kit features a one piece hopper body some built in jigging to help you build it and a full set of castings. The chassis is to the usual Rumney Models spec and includes full brakegear and guitar wire ‘leaf’ spring suspension. It can be built in OO as well as EM and P4.

LNER Gresley 8’6” Standard Duty Coach Bogie Subframe

These are something that has been a work in progress for a good while; a fully sprung subframe for the distinctive Gresley bogie. The kit specifically covers the 8’6” standard duty bogies. 8’ and 8’6” heavy duty bogies are options for future releases depending on sales. A neat solution for the visible cosmetic wheel leaf springs is included. Can be used currently with RTR plastic sideframes or MJT castings.

BR Coach Bogies (for Mk1 stock)

A complete kit for the standard duty 1950s BR Mk1 coach bogie. The kit has options that cover single bolster bogies and double bolster bogies, either in their original design or with the revised and strengthened bolster arrangement. Riveted and welded construction is also covered and there are options for welded and riveted spring stops. The only ones you can’t model are the heavy duty ones variety and the few built with compensated brakegear. They are of course fully sprung with guitar wire primary and secondary springing. Castings are included for the 6 leaf springs/BR1 axleboxes and the bolster springs and hangers.

Not for those who want rakes and rakes of the things but an option for some who only needs a few but wants a bogie that the right kind of width and looks a bit special.

GER Y14/LNER J15 Underframe

A modern, fold up, CSB’d underframe designed for use with the Alan Gibson J15 kit. The kit includes complete dummy inside motion and full brake gear. A number of options are covered including square and bevel bottom fireboxes as well as those converted from the former to the later, different length brake shoe brackets, steam and Westinghouse air brakegear, Sharp Stewart brakes for the first batch built and fluted or plain coupling rods.

GER S23 Tender Underframe

To compliment the above a CSB underframe kit for use with the Alan Gibson S23 tender kit. The kit includes a fold up subframe with full brakegear and options for both steam as well as Westinghouse air brakes. Also included are replacement sideframes with options for round or straight top sideframe cut outs.

GER Z14 Tender Underframe

As per the S23 tender kit in concept and again designed for use with the Alan Gibson S23 kit to create an earlier GER tender. The kit includes replacement sideframes with options for deep and shallow sideframe cut outs as well as numerous brakegear arrangements covering steam and Westinghouse fitted tenders.

If any of the above is of interest look out for a further update with prices a week or two before Scaleforum.

Justin

30 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I've got it !!!

 

..... and Heljan have the perfect credentials for this .....

 

what the EM and P4 aficionados need is .....

 

a Tubby-Gronk !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

And what the OO afficinadoesneed is a perfectly to scale Gronk... Give me a break.

I'm going to give up now as this is all becoming a bit pointless. 

Justin

Justin

36 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Compromise - the eternal cure-all for when scaling the prototype can't be done.

 

The obvious compromise - allowing the external dimensions of the model to be to scale - would be to narrow the gauge on which the model runs ....... but then someone already did that, didn't they?

 

The plain fact is that you can't have it all ways - particularly with outside-framed locos; give me an accurate body on a compromised-gauge chassis any time !

 

I certainly don't want a Class 11 or 12 with substandard thickness springs, cranks or rods, or with cosmetic outside frames that are so thin that they'll crack if any significant pressure is applied.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Or perhaps compromise - the inevitable result of using manufacturing techniques where exact scaling of the prototype can't be done. 

I assume you don't have any Bachmann or Hornby 08s as there is room in there for EM/P4 wheels so they must be compromised elesewhere? The springs on the Bachmann one obviously are. Perhaps there's sufficient room in those for EM/P4 wheels as a result of needing the things to go round R1 and R2 curves in OO? Another compromise...

8 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think that the lack of wheels in EM/P4 would knacker any conversion. This loco had 4"-0.5" wheels with the 'bevelled' rim. The 08 had 4'-6" also with the bevelled rim. I don't know how many spokes in either case. Wheels for the 08 are readily available, but there are, to the best of my knowledge, no wheels available that feature a 4'-0" o/d, bevelled rim and no crankpin. I suppose that those with a lathe could modify the RTR wheels, but for the rest of us this model is best passed by. A pity but there it is.

It's true that there isn't a suitable wheel currently available but it also possible that if the conversion is achievable and people put their hands up someone like Alan Gibson will produce something. If EM/P4 wheels don't fit then there definately won't be any proper wheels.

Justin

11 hours ago, dibber25 said:

I took your reference to 'compatibility' to mean that wheel sets could be exchanged to suit EM/P4, and that poses cost implications in certain types of chassis where axles and gears are integral. You seem, however, to just be concerned about internal width (presumably you'd be replacing the whole chassis?) and as the model has no wheel splashers I suspect there would be enough internal width for EM/P4 - however, discarding the RTR chassis seems a prohibitively expensive way to obtain a locomotive body. (CJL)

By compatibility I meant simply there being sufficient clearance to fit EM/P4 wheels, 22mm between frames would do. I wouldn't expect any RTR company to do any more than that, though one does offer replacement EM and P4 wheel sets at a premium.

Discarding the chassis (and therefore desiging/buying a new one) would be an option, but for many simply changing wheel sets is a more likely one. The likes of Alan Gibson and Ultrascale have provided conversion sets to do just that. With regard to discarding the chassis being prohibitively expensive, compared to the cost of buying a kit (if it exisits) and then factoring in the time to buid it and paint it, it's an absolute bargain. If the model is any good, and of course if the wheels will fit...

Great choice of prototype by the way. 

11 hours ago, cctransuk said:

Presumably, you'd want the width over flycranks and rods to be prototypical, so that they didn't clobber your close-to-prototypical platform face spacings?

 

No doubt dibber25 would welcome your advice as to how the outside frames, flycranks and rods can be reproduced to scale thickness and clearances, in order to achieve this.

 

I cannot imagine that those who have committed to EM and P4 will not have considered the problems specific to outside-framed locos, before making their gauge choices?

 

I await your response with interest!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Not necessarily, compromise things. It doesn't all need to be exactly to scale, just to look right (and the two things are not the same). Start with the intention that the width between the frames is to scale as is the width over the flycranks and adjust things such as springs and cranks to account for the overly thick plastic frames (which probably don't need to be that thick anyway as it's very unlikely they'll be functional). It may be possible to move the flycranks out a little depending on just how wide the prototype is. RTR locos are full of compromises, even the best of them. I don't expect that to change. 

It's interesting the various attitudes that seem to exist within the RTR manufacturing field. Within the more mainstream manufacturers there does seem to an attitude that they're just not interested. This contrasts starkly with some of the new kids on the block who actively make their products EM/P4 compatible, presumably to maximise all possible sales. Given that the model railway cake is likley to shrink over the next 5/10 years it will be interesting to see who's doing better; those who court only the mainstream or those who court everyone.

Justin

Shrewsbury occasionally used its Std 4 tanks on pickup goods services to Hereford. There's a picture of 80136 at Leominster on such a train in Hereford Locomotive Shed by Steve Bartlett.

Justin

20 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Not something I can answer, but I would expect it will be a standard Heljan mechanism design and i don't know if they suit easy conversion or not. In general such considerations add to the cost (unless they are already built in to standard components and assembly methods) and with margins being very tight these days it usually doesn't make economic sense to spend a lot extra for a few extra sales. It's early days yet, anyway, so I doubt that any design work has yet been undertaken. (CJL)

But it doesn't take much to make sure that such items are EM/P4 compatible. We had this with the 1600 thread. All that's required is a dimension in the spec to make sure there's sufficient clearance for EM/P4 wheels. That's all. Nothing more. I fail to see how that significantly adds to the cost of the project. I'd have thought that with margins being very tight any manufactuer would want to maximise all possible sales for what should amount to very little effort...

If I can get P4 wheels in one I'll definately have 15105. If not I'll buy another Hornby 08. 

Justin

16 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

4910 ia a 14 ton RCH 1927 design tank wagon, double brake not Morton 12ft 6in wheelbase bake as would be found on a 20 ton. 2794 is either a 10 or 12 ton 1907 RCH design of tank wagon. A very late built one as in 1911 RCH had issued a drawing for a 14 ton wagon which has the same method of holding the tank in place as the 1907 design but the bigger barrel of the 1927 design. Wagons identified from "Oil on the rails" by Alan Coppin, the RCH drawings are in the appendix.

5 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

At first sight I thought 4910 was an Air Ministry type - but without the Modeller's Backtrack article in front of me .............

The larger of the two tanks is a 7'2 1/2" diameter Air Ministry, you can tell primarily from the manhole but also the walkways. They were to 1927 spec but were a little bit different to most built in the late 1920s and 1930s. I'm slowly working away at a model of one of those myself. 

Personally I've become wary of refering to tank wagons by weight as it doesn't really tell us a great deal about the wagon in question and specifically it doesn't automatically tell us the diameter of the tank which is the important thing from a modelling point of view. All it tells us what load you could put on the underframe. This is a bit like 16T minerals. The 16T bit doesn't tell you how much you could get in the box merely the maximum weight you could put on the underframe (16T of coke wouldn't fit, if you filled it with iron ore you'd end up being way overloaded, coal varied in density (just like oil products)...). The load you could get in the tank would vary depending on what type of oil product was being carried and tanks were built at different diameters for different loads. The RCH tank loads list in Mr Tourret's book is a good start but is not exhaustive and there were non standard sizes (a flick through Mr Tourret's book will gve you quoted tank diameters of 6'11" for Class A loads and the 6' 0" diamater of the Air Ministry Class B lubricating oil tanks aren't listed). We do know some things, for example that the Air Ministry Class A tanks were all 7'2 1/2" (from the drawings) hence why I gave that measurement at the start.

The other wagon in the picture above is an RCH standard pre-1927 tank. It's likely to be 10/12T underframe as the springs are 5 leaf, if it were 14T it would have 6 leaf springs. The tank is likely to be around 5'11" diameter but it's almost impossible to be completely sure. 

Justin

Latest News - April 2019

April is upon us already and Scalefour North is just round the corner which means a new round of Rumney Models releases. Due to other demands on my time there is a smaller than usual number of them.

First up is a detailing fret for 10’ Morton brake wagons (B.114 - £4.50). This was done by request and is intended to upgrade Bachmann and Parkside, etc wagons. The fret includes both GWR and RCH brake lever guards along with brake levers, new vees, open wagon door springs (two types), solebar and headstock detailing, lamp irons, coupling hooks and Instanter links. There are sufficient parts for 2 wagons.

Spring and axlebox castings are now available for GWR and LMS milk tanks. These are for milk tanks fitted with oil journals rather than roller bearings. The GWR type is available with either BR or RCH 2 part axleboxes. Note that this variation applies to the outer axles only, the centre axles on all GWR milk tanks fitted with oil journals were an RCH type. All are £5 for a set of 6 and include and etch for the riveted axlebox guide fitted to the outer two axles. For more information and product codes see my website.

A couple of items that were previously withdrawn have been reinstated. LNER steel open stanchions and detailing (B.101 - £3) and the Ratio LMS van strapping and detailing (B.105 - £1). Both of these items will remain in the catalogue until current stock levels are exhausted. Further details can be found here.

As has been noted elsewhere a few kits from the Miscellany Models range created by Mark Tatlow will be available from the Rumney Models exhibition stand at Scalefour North. These are as follows:

• Highland Railway/LMS/BR diagram 51 full brake (£48)
• Fully sprung Fox coach bogies (£16 per pair)
• MR/LMS/BR: Diagram 530 passenger brake (£36)
• NER/LNER/BR: Diagram P7 hopper wagon detailing etch (£13.50 - sufficient for 2 wagons)

Please note that I will not be supplying these kits mail order, they are ONLY available from Rumney Models at the exhibitions I’m attending. All mail order and general product enquiries should be directed to Mark and you should visit the Miscellany Models website for contact details and further information on the kits.

And finally a quick mention of a couple of items that will see the light of day in the autumn round of releases. Work on the complete BR Mk1 bogie kit has been completed; samples for the castings approved and the production mould ordered, leaving just the instructions left to write. They won’t be of any use to those who need rakes of the things (likely cost and the amount of time needed to build them would count against that) but if you only need a few and want a fully sprung bogie that isn’t too wide and looks the part then they may be of interest.

Also scheduled for release is a sprung subframe for 8’6” Gresley coach bogies. I have yet to determine prices for both of these items.

I look forward to seeing some of you in Wakefield.

Justin

9 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

Given that DraftSight is virtually identical to AutoCad Lt which costs around £1200 as well as its *.dwg files being indistinguishable from those produced by AutoCad, I believe it's a false economy to dump DraftSight.

AutoCAD LT currently costs £414 per year including VAT . You can get a discount if you sign up for more than one year but it is only available now on subscrption. Still it's about twice the price as Draftsight professional but it's a very good program though and for various reasons the one I use. 

Justin

11 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Dave Bradwell is/was allegedly going to do one of these, though it hasn't appeared yet....

Dave is doing one. He had a nearly finished test etch at Scalefour North last year and it looked excellent with an inovative method of springing the centre axle. Not sure how close to release it is though. 

Justin