jjnewitt

42 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

If we are talking about Monmouth you could add Ross-on-wye.

There was only one branch off the Hereford. Ross & Gloucester Railway at Ross-on-Wye though, so it wasn't much different to countless other junction stations on single track lines. At Monmouth there were lines to Usk/Little Mill, Ross, Chepstow and also at one point to Coleford though it did close very early (1917).

Justin

In a similar, albeit smaller, vein to Brecon: Monmouth.   

Brecon Free Street station had four platforms was the hub for four seperate lines, all single track, though the junctions for two of those lines were some way from Brecon itself at Talyllyn and Three Cocks Junctions. I wouldn't necessarily describe Free Street as a 'large' station though. Set in a beautiful location certainly and perhaps the epitome of a rural railway centre but traffic was never really heavy and aside from the grand station building the layout wasn't big or complicated.

Justin

Potential 7mm Scale Anchor Mount Tanks Wagons

I was asked via another forum if I would do something for anchor mounted tank wagons in 7mm scale. Consequently drawing work has been completed for two types of underframe and also two diameters of tanks, 7’3” and 6’7”. The kits would principally be for fuel oil tanks though the underframes could be used for other types such as bitumen tanks. As the bitumen types were insulated and had different anchor mountings they would need different bodies and fittings which I am not considering doing at this time. Below you will find further details on the etches and some pdfs of the frets. There is also a note about fittings.

I am proposing to only put these into production if there is sufficient demand to do so (see prices and ordering below). The deadline for ordering is the beginning of next month and currently I have orders with payment for 8 underframes and 8 bodies which is short of the required number. If you are interested in a decent 7mm scale anchor mount tank wagon then please continue reading.

Underframes

These follow the same basic design as my 4mm version and are sprung using guitar wire leaf springs. The chassis is a fold up sandwich type affair with spacers between. They will be etched on 0.4mm brass. There are two kits:

OB.71 14T underframe with BR type axleguards

OB.74 20T underframe with RCH heavy duty type axleguards

This covers the vast majority of fuel oil tanks built with anchor mountings.

Tank Bodies Parts

These include everything to build the bodies, except for the tank wrappers which can easily be made from 0.010” sheet. This can be summarised as the saddles and anchors, tank formers, Class B drain valve parts, ladders and walkways. Again they will be etched in 0.4mm brass apart from the mesh or chequer plate used on the walkways which will be etched in 0.010” brass. I will do dimensioned drawings for the wrappers in the instructions. There are two kits:

OC.71 7’3” tank parts

OC.72 6’7” tank parts

Combinations

The four kits can be combined to produce most of the fuel oil tanks built from around 1947. These are summarised as follows:

OB.71 + OC.71          14T Class A Tanks      14T underframe + 7’3” tank

OB.71 + OC.72          14T Class B Tanks      14T underframe + 6’7” tank

OB.74 + OC.71          20T Class B Tanks      20T underframe + 7’3” tank

Fittings

As I am doing these wagons in 4mm scale for myself I have been gradually drawing up 3D artwork to go with the etches. This includes tank ends; manholes; Class B screwdown valves, discharge valves and steam heat manifolds, Class A siphon block and associated vents and of course the spring and axleboxes. If I get enough orders for this project to go ahead I will look at producing them in 7mm scale to go with the kits. This may well be in the form of whitemetal castings from 3D printed masters rather than straight 3D prints, I will need to look at prices. There is no definitive timescale or price yet for these but if the bodies go ahead then they will be done sooner rather than later.

Prices and Ordering

The underframes are going to be £30 each and the body parts £25 each. In order to go ahead with the etches I'll need confirmed orders with payment for 15 underframes (in total, there can be a mixture of the two and it doesn’t matter to me if it’s 14 of one and 1 or another) and 15 sets of body etches (again in total with a mix of the two). The underframe and body parts aren’t dependent on each other to go ahead but you must say if you don’t want the underframes without the bodies when ordering. Hopefully this will avoid any issues if there is insufficient demand for the bodies.

My preferred method of payment is by cheque, made payable to “Justin Newitt” not Rumney Models (!) and sent to the address below. These will not be cashed until there are sufficient orders to proceed. If we do not reach the required number I will simply return the cheques. Rather than leaving this open ended I intend to set a deadline of 6th April to order these kits. If we get enough orders to go ahead then I will get the etches done as soon as this happens rather than waiting until April and the parts will then join main Rumney Models 7mm range; if not payments will be returned. Payment can also be arranged by bank transfer (email me for details) but the payee’s bank account details must also be included for returning the money in case of insufficient take up and payments via Paypal (again email me for details) will attract a surcharge; this will be 4% for UK orders and 6% for overseas.

This arrangement is not ideal but I have already spent a lot of time reworking the 4mm artwork and do not wish to do anything further until such time as I know I’m going to be paid for that time and the further work that needs to be done, i.e. instructions and tank wrapper drawings as well as paying for the tooling and the etches themselves.

Justin Newitt

Rumney Models

3 Warren Terrace

Trellech

Monmouthshire

NP25 4PH

justinnewitt@gmail.com

7mm Anchor Mount Tank Wagon Bodies - OC.71 7.3 Foot Tank RM181123C.pdf

7mm Anchor Mount Tank Wagon Bodies - OC.72 6.7 Foot Tank RM181123D.pdf

7mm Anchor Mount Tank Wagon Underframes - OB.71 14T BR Anchor Mount Tank Underframe RM-181123A.pdf

7mm Anchor Mount Tank Wagon Underframes - OB.74 20T RCH Anchor Mount Tank Underframe RM181123B.pdf

The liveries depicted on the tank wagons look to be pretty good reproductions of the post 1959 National Benzole Class A and Class B ones. There are images of both liveries in the revised edition of Tourret's Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Great Britain.

Any inacuracies with these models lie in the tank wagon itself not the livery. The Bachmann cradle mounted tank wagons are pretty clunky and have a tank diameter and pitch that doesn't match anything I've come across. National Benzole 734 was an ex Air Ministry 14T Class A saddle mounted wagon (much bigger tank to begin with and welded to, picture in the above book) and 2023 was a 14T Class B Anchor Mount (search the Colour Rail website and loco number 82006 for an image of one this batch at Aberystwyth).

Justin

Yes fair enough Collett 3500 gallon will suffice for them.

Justin

Just to add a little to the Manor and 3500 intermediate tender discussion, when the combination did occur they almost always were paired with Churchward type. Other locos, in addition to Compton and Odney mentioned above, that got them were Barcote and Ilford. Compton's pairing was interesting as the intermediate tender was one of those converted from older units rather than built under lot A.112. The only Manor that I know of that was paired with a Collett 3500 gallon intermediate tender in BR days was Fringford. She ran with this for a couple of years.

The prize for the oddest Manor/tender pairing must surely go to Cookham who in 1965 aquired a 4000 gallon tender.

Justin

How many ways can there be to fit the tie bar?

Only one. As Porcy suggested tie bars on wagons are usually formed from flat bar (though could be round between the axleguards (W-Irons)). On wagons built with vacuum brakes they were bent at the ends to wrap around the outside of the axleguards. On wagons originally built unfitted they were usually welded between the individual keeps or stirups. These keeps again wrapped around the edges of the axleguards. In the cast majority of cases they were not L shaped.

The only wagons (that I know of) that had L section tie bars were the 16T minerals retrofotted in the mid-1960s, such as the one in the above photo.

Justin 

Justin, point taken about Peco but I wonder where this leaves us with the 16xx?  Wait and see if the wheels will fit I suppose.  If not, scrape and hope!

Yes I suppose so which is a bit of a shame. You'd have though that it wouldn't take much to make sure there is enough room in the splashers for EM or P4 wheelsets (22mm should just about do) but sadly the finescale market is tiny and manufactures wan't to pay any attention to it. 

Even if it wasn't too late to include in the design, such things all have a cost. It is unlikely that the 'OO' wheel sets could be opened out to EM gauge, so a complete new chassis would be needed, making it a very expensive way for EM modellers to obtain a locomotive body. (CJL)

But the alternative is to build the only decent kit available and if you factor in the time to do that and then paint it perhaps it's not that expensive a body after all? As Bob says most people wouldn't need a new chassis and new wheels can be had from Alan Gibson but if they don't fit then they might not buy the loco to begin with. 

Justin 

I see Peco have announced they will produce EM trackwork  - flexitrack and turnouts.  Evidently they believe there is a big enough market to justify the investment.

Peco are manufacturing the EM track for the EM Gauge Society. The EM Gauge Society are producing it for their members and are paying all the bills; they own it, not Peco. If it was down to Peco alone they wouldn't be producing it.

Justin

I will have a go if you like. Nothing to say you cannot get in touch separately at a later date.

That's fine by me. I'll look forward to hearing the results of your enquiries. 

If he says the wagon were pooled ask him how that worked in practise and what the dairy companies got out of the arrangement. They still owned the tanks and had more milk tanks built post 1942 so they must have benifited from any arrangement with the M.M.B.

Cheers,

Justin 

On the SR, mixing seemed to be the order of the day. This view of Torrington shows the source of the Express Dairies flow on the Southern so if anywhere would have a consistent batch of milk tankers post-nationalisation, this would be a good place to look.

 

In fact there look to be 2 or possibly even 3 different diagrams in that rake.

Different diagrams yes but not necessarliy different dairy companies. Almost all the dairies operating milk tanks had multiple diagrams. Interestingly most of those in this picture are Unigate types.

I can't make them all out but from right to left: (probably) GWR O.52 (Ex Cow & Gate with Unigate plate), GWR O.57 or O.60 (Unigate), LMS d.1994 (could be any number of diaries but looks like a United Dairies plate), LMS d.1994 (probably with what looks like a United Dairies or Unigate plate), I don't know what the fith one is but the plate looks to be United Dairies or Unigate. The example in the goods shed doesn't look to be Express Dairy either as there is no number plate on the crosshead (baulk at the end of the tank).

Similarly the Unigate dock at West ealing seems to hold a variety of diagrams.

Most, if not all, United Dairies/Unigate types.

Again from right to left: LMS d.1994 (United Diaries or Unigate plate), SR d.3157 fitted with a sloping tank (United Dairies), another LMS d.1994 (could be a number of dairies), another sloping tank, centre platform example probably SR d.3155 as there are no diagonal stanchions on the ends (United Dairies), GWR Possibly O.55 (could be ex. Cow & Gate, ex Aplin & Barrett or M.M.B), another centre platform example could be GWR or SR but will have been United Diaries.

It's not always easy to tell diagrams (and which company owned the tank) apart but generally those with small dairy plates were United Dairies/Unigate, Express Dairies plates were much bigger and had the number plate on the crosshead. Full platforms were United Diaries, mesh walkways were mostly Express Dairies.

If you want to know for sure, join the Classic 0 Gauge forum (RMWeb for tinplaters!) and ask frequent contributor Bruce Palmer. Before retirement ( a good few years back) he was MMB’s man in charge of logistics and knows the detail of all this stuff.

Thanks, that's brilliant. Do you want to try and get in touch with him Karhedron or should I? Don't want to both pester him at the same time.

The MMB was formed in 1933, and whilst I don't know what its early powers were, late in life it used to have the power to buy every pint of milk in England and Wales, and then to choose who it sold it to, with the aims of 1) always having liquid milk available to housholds, and 2) making sure excess got turned into cheese or butter which could be stored, with no milk going to waste. EVEN if you owned both the cow and the dairy, you still had to sell the milk to the MMB and then buy it back...

 

You can imagine how important that role was during the war (and much of the MMB structure was clearly designed to put Britains food production on a war footing) so pooling of wagons would make sense to me. Alas by the time I joined the MMB chemistry lab as a school leaver, the railway tanks had gone, and I was more interested in the Sports and Social Club Bar, but its a lasting regret that I didn't womble over to the MMB library who probably had a heap of interesting documents on the subject.

The M.M.B. was set up with the intention of making sure that farmers got a minimum price for their milk. Prior to that they were at the mercy of the big diairies to a certain extent. In some ways it's a shame we don't still have the diary industry working in this way with the huge supermarkets around...

Certainly what happened during WW2 was that the restriction of underframe to the railway company that built it disapeared so they became 'common user' in that sense. They may well have been pooled, and it would probably make sense practically to do so, but looking at photos I don't see what I would expect from that situation, i.e. a random selection of wagons and it leads to more questions than answers.

Justin

If anyone can give a more definitive description of events, I would be interested to learn the full details.

As would I. 

I asked because I'm yet to be convinced that the milk tanks were all put in one pool and vehicles sent randomly to creameries for filling. I occasionally get asked by customers to identify milk tanks in a particular service that they want to model. I've got reasonably good at identifying diagrams and a lot obviously corresponded to a particular dairy company, a situation that continued post 1942 when further milk tanks were built. What I tend to see is that milk tanks operating to a particular creamery generally had tanks owned by the dairy that ran it. If they were pooled I would expect to see more of a mix and whilst there isn't a huge amount of decent photographic eveidence to go by the instances I've looked at are too frequent to be just chance.

From what I gather in 1942 the Milk Marketing Board were handed the responsbility of controlling the distribution of milk to ensure supplies got to where they were needed. Entirely sensible in war time (and post war) conditions It would be interesting to know exacty how this relationship worked with the diariy companies (including the M.M.B itself with its creamery hat on). If the milk tanks were pooled as you say it would also be interesting to know what the dairy companies got out of it as they certainly would have contributed to that pool by paying for more tanks (that they still owned) to go on underframes post 1942. Personally I suspect there was something a bit more complicated going on as there were a lot of different 'interests' in the movement of milk by rail.

It would be nice if someone who was there could answer some of these questions and explain it properly but I imagine that is now a dwindling bunch and the only comments I've seen are along the lines of 'everyone's got it wrong' but giving no explaination as to what is right, which is as much use as a chocolate teapot...

Justin

In summary, dirty silver is a safe bet for any post-war milk tankers but feel free to dot in occasional splash of colour. One thing that I have not seen are rakes of tankers in matching liveries. These seem to have been a pre-war feature and vanished with the 1942 pooling.

I'm interested in exactly what you mean by the term 'pooled' and how did it effectvely work?

Justin

As others have said they were pretty filthy most of the time. I have seen photos of ex-works examples in rakes and they stick out like a sore thumb. Not all had dairy plates but whilst not really cleaned they do seem to have been legible more often than not. Under the crud most would have been silver (or should that be aluminium as this seems to have been what they were clad in?). Occasional wagons would have Express Dairies or M.M.B blue tanks underneath the weathering. The white and orange of St Ivel came post steam. 

Justin

Another a new set of releases from Rumney Models to report on.

The ‘headline act’ this time round is a pair of kits for RCH 1927 tank wagon underframes. They are available with either 10’ (B.75) or 9’ (B.76) wheelbase and are £14 each. These are suitable for tank wagons built from around 1927 until the last of the Air Ministry tanks were built in the mid 1940s. The obvious current starting point for a body is the Bachmann cradle mounted tank wagon. These chassis don’t include any detailing for the body such as ladders.

To complement the above chassis and for those wishing to upgrade the Bachmann cradle mounted tank wagon model without resorting to building a new underframe there is a detailing kit (B.113 - £4.50). This includes two sets of different ladders, brake levers, brake lever guards, tie bars, valve wheel, tank straps and outside solebar crosshead tie down brackets. There are sufficient parts for 2 wagons.

Having sorted out a casting shortage the BR version of my sprung plate freight bogies are now available. There are two types with either oil (G.01) or roller bearing (G.02) journals. Both types are £12 for a pair. They feature etched sideframes and bolster with cast whitemetal bolster springs and journals.

The new items for are rounded off with yet more spring and axlebox castings.

The 5 leaf spring is now available with an LMS sloping platefront axlebox and the 6 leaf springs with RCH 2 part (perfect for the new tank wagon chassis), LMS sloping platefront (good for pre 1927 tank wagons) and LNER welded (16T minerals) axleboxes. There are also springs and axleboxes for GWR and LMS Stanier brake vans. The GWR brake van springs are the later swing link variety and come with either RCH or BR 2 part heavy duty axleboxes (10” journals). These are suitable for diagrams AA.15 (last batch), AA.19, AA.20, AA.21 and AA.23. All are £3 for a set of 4. For more information and product codes see my website.

I had hoped to have added GWR and LMS milk tank springs and axleboxes to the catalogue this time round but I have practically sold out of those that I ordered and so will add them once I have plenty of stocks (in short I didn’t order enough!). Keep an eye on the website but I would hope to have them for the Portsmouth exhibition in November. I will have a very limited number for sale at Scaleforum for those who are quick.

Not a new item but United Dairies milk tank plates in both 4mm and 7mm scales are now back in stock.

Finally a little vague market research.

When I originally did my sprung coach bogies the idea was to do them as complete bogie kits with sideframes and detail castings. Time and a lack of ability to do the master for castings put paid to the idea and they appeared just as sprung subframes. Recently I have revisited the idea and have done the etches and masters for the BR coach bogie.

The etches cover the original single bolster, standard and heavy duty double bolster bogies as well as the revised versions of the double bolster bogies (the bolsters on the double bolster designs were tweaked early on). They can be built as either riveted or welded bogies and feature two different types of spring stop. Master have been printed for the lighter springs and BR1 axleboxes (used on single and standard double bolster bogies) and heavier springs and BR2 axleboxes used on the heavy duty double bolster bogies as well as the bolster springs. In short a pretty comprehensive kit.

They aren’t necessarily quick (the test build took about 6 hours to put one bogie together) and if you want full length rakes this sort of thing isn’t going to be for you but they do look rather lovely.

So what I’m pondering with all this is whether there is actually a market for these bogies and if so what would the market be prepared to pay? I’m not convinced with the former and I expect the later is only about what they would cost to put in a bag but having done them I thought I’d see if there was any interest? If there isn’t enough interest they won’t be released.

I hope to see some of you at Scaleforum next weekend,

Justin

Yes Rumney Models produces them, or at least they will officially when the next catalogue is released in a couple of weeks. 

They will be available with correct RCH or BR 2 part 10" x 5" journal axleboxes (these are bigger than the MJT ones). The price is £3 for a set of 4 plus P&P and I have some in stock. They should really have strengthened axlebox guides which I do as a sperate etch (£0.50 for 3 wagon's worth). If you want any drop me a PM or email me via the address on the website.

Justin

At Llanbrynmair there was a refuge siding that ran on top of an embankment along side the Cambrian main line. They crossed both road and river bridges.

Justin

Many NPCCS vehicles had through steam heating pipes, but milk tanks did not, so steam heating could not be supplied to guards on milk trains unless the van was coupled to the loco, which limited to 20 the number of vehicles marshalled behind it.   

Not true, milk tanks were built with steam heating pipes and many retained them until at least they were no longer needed to be attached to passenger trains. As I understood it in the fifties and sixties you could have a maximum of 6 vehicles behind the brake van. If there was more they had to go in front. Not much good on a Winter's day if you had 7 tanks for Lampeter to be attahced to a passenger train at Carmarthen and no steam heating pipes.

Also, I'm fairly sure that some Gresely BGs had stoves fitted though stand to be corrected on this.

Justin

Spring is in the air and Scalefour North just around the corner which means a new set of releases from Rumney Models.

A couple of eagerly awaited commission projects reach fruition and are released.

Firstly there is a loco chassis for the MR/LMS/BR 1P 0-4-4T (X.04 - £38). This is a modern chassis designed to go under the craftsman body. It is designed to be fully sprung and can be built in P4, EM and OO. It features full brakegear, dummy inside motion, 3D printed details and a removable keeper plate with cosmetic driving wheel springs.

The second commission project is for a set of fully sprung diesel bogies for the all wheel drive Hornby BR class 31 (X.02 - £33). This is slightly different from my previous diesel bogies as it features guitar wire leaf suspension for both primary and secondary springs. The bogies are almost entirely self contained meaning little modification is required to the Hornby chassis block. Includes custom High Level skinny hornblocks.

Another project that has been rumbling on for a while also sees the light of day though this time a home one. Finally available are my sprung freight bogies. The first couple of releases cover GWR standard and heavy duty types (G.04 & G.05 - £12). They feature etched sideframes and bolster with cast whitemetal bolster springs and journals. BR types will be added to the catalogue soon and there will be a very small number available from the stand at Scalefour North.

Other items newly released include an underframe for the Chivers GWR & SR Tunny (B.35 - £13.50) and an S Scale RCH 17’6” x 9’ Morton brake wagon underframe (SB.32 - £18). Also released are additional parts to convert my anchor mount tank wagon chassis (B.71) to other variants. These cover 14T wagons with RCH axleguards (B.72 - £2.50), 20T wagons with BR Plate axleguards (B.73 - £2.50) and 20T wagons with RCH HD axleguards (B.74 - £2.50).

I hope to see some of you at Scalefour North,

Justin

No Modelu this year?

No, Alan managed to double book himself this year. He'll be in Newport I think.

Justin

Plastic card is wonderful

Hi Clive,

Ahh but so is etched brass!

I like your tank wagons, especially the wing plate mounted one.

If people are going to produce 3D printed items that are going to need a lot of 'finishing' then why aren't they done in a way that makes it easy to finish them, ie in bits and without any detail to them? If you're going to have to do a lot of priming and sanding then perhaps a loco body should actually come as a kit with seperate footplate, smokebox/boiler/firebox, cab, tanks, etc. This would push the price up as there is a setting up cost per item to take into account but would make the life of the builder a lot easier. Part of the art of desiging kits to to make them as user friendly as possible within the market at which they're aimed.

Justin

Making your own?

Yup:

Rumney Models

Workbench

Generally not plasitcard though as I personally prefer creating things in other materials.

Justin

Some people really don't get it do they?

 

I really want an LBSCR B4. I could do with one for my next layout project.

 

Then why didn't you get out the plasic sheet and a suitably sized tube and spend a few evenings creating one? You'd have got something for even less money (!) and it probably would have looked better. You could have 3D printed the details of you wanted or oculdn;t find them elsewhere.

I really don't get the obsession over 3D printing loco bodies. The result is generally pretty poor (especially in materials that make it cheap) and would seem to be a backwards step from more traditional methods. I'm not convinced that 3D printing in it's current form can get a lot better, except perhaps DLP printing and then only really if they find a way to animate it (think film rather than a slide show). It all strikes me a bit as betamax technology. The prints Modelu can do are very good (though in certain situations still need 'finishing') but it's only really suited to small detailing parts in 4mm.

With the incresing furvour surronding ever detail of incresingly good RTR relases I find it odd that people would accept something that is obviously a massive step down in quality.

Justin

14T Air Ministry tank wagons as I'm currently working on them...