whart57

Still pretty dire, but not so dire that it was impossible, financially at least, to buy American diesels. Politically however it was a different matter. The RAF was kitted out with British designed and built planes - Hawker Hunter, the Canberra and the V-bombers, BOAC and BEA flew Vickers Vanguards, DH Comets, VC10s, foreign built cars were curiosities on British roads and most "white goods" and consumer electronics were British made, all those Bush TVs for example. The expectation was that British trains would be pulled by British engines.

Roses of Picardy -- World War One song

1955 was ten years after the end of the war and Britain's financial situation was not so dire. However there would have been a lot of unhappiness around the country if the government had sanctioned the purchase of American locomotives for British railways. The expectation was that British industry was the best in the world and planes, trains and automobiles would come from British factories.

Watched Miss Potter last night, Renee Zellwigger, aka Bridget Jones, as Beatrix Potter. I was amused by the scenes of her and her family getting the train to the Lake District. Shot I suspect at either Horsted Keynes or Sheffield Park it featured a loco that was clearly a Southern one - olive green with sunshine lettering. Only the directors clearly felt that even the most railway-ignorant viewers would figure out that the Southern was an unlikely company to be serving Windermere. So patches were applied to the tender replacing "SOU" with "NOR"

Probably around the same size as Shannon on the Wantage Tramway. That's the sort of railway I was thinking of. Standard gauge because part of the traffic was taking mainline goods wagons the last couple of miles but still a lot lighter than a branch line of a main line company. Edit: Just out of interest I overlaid the drawing of the Krauss 2-4-0T on a side view of Shannon sized to the same scale. They are more or less exactly the same size.

Going to the other end of the scale from large Garratts and heavy freight, what flights of fancy could be triggered by the loco I use for my icon. I'll enlarge it here. This loco was built by Krauss for the Maeklong Railway in Thailand (that one that goes through the market). However take away the balloon stack and the double cab roof (needed in the tropics), and possibly make it standard gauge instead of metre gauge, then what sort of railway could we imagine this running on?

"London" only got into the title of the short half mile line from the LCDR station to the pier. This short railway was supposed to make an end on connection to the pier tramway, and I've only just realised the papers for parliament were being prepared just as the pier was closing because the teredo worm had bored into the supporting timbers.

I wondered about that too. I have now traced the route on a map made up of 25" to the mile segments downloaded from the NLS. The survey date is 1872 so smack on the date required. The chicane is less wild this time I need to confirm with the gradient diagrams, but I don't think it was objections from land-owners that was the reason. East Kent is not mountainous but between Canterbury and the North Kent coast the streams and rivers run West to East. The River Stour is the biggie and that means Canterbury itself is only a few feet above sea level. However a ridge going up to a plateau some 200-250 feet above sea level is on the Stour's north bank. That plateau is cut through by the North Stream and its bed is 150 feet down from the plateau. When George Stephenson laid out the Canterbury and Whitstable the route took him west of the head of the North Stream so he could emerge from Tyler Hill tunnel and be on reasonable level ground. The engineers of this line had to contend with the dip caused by the North Stream and they had to climb it again on the other side. They could have built a viaduct or a massive embankment but that was probably regarded as too costly. Swinging round to follow the stream and then heading for another gap in the hills seems to be the reason for this curvature. The funny thing is, that whenever I've mused about an imaginary branch from Canterbury to Herne Bay I've always put it further East, branching from the SER at Sturry and going around the end of the Blean Woods. That meant Herne could have a station and Herne Bay's terminus would be on the edge of the old town, and where the 18th century turnpike toad fetched up. The real 19th century promoters all saw the pier as their destination. This is curious for the 1861 proposal since the first pier was falling down and would close that year. A second pier was being built in 1872 and would open in 1873 so it might be interesting to see if the pier promoter was also involved with the Canterbury and Herne Bay Railway as well. By the late 20th century Herne Bay was far from fashionable, locals called it the Costa Geriatica. In the nineteenth century though the place was thronging with property speculators.

As reported elsewhere, I went to the Parliamentary Archives to look at some of the railway related material they have there. I was particularly interested in the several lines proposed for the seaside town of Herne Bay in Kent. This is where I lived from ages 3-18 - and my parents continued living there for another six years - so I have an attachment. The railway came to Herne Bay in the form of the LCDR's Kent Coast line in 1861. However before then there had been a proposal to lay in a branch to join the Canterbury and Whitstable a couple of miles out from Whitstable. This proposal was revived after the LCDR arrived in town along with a proposal to build a short, half mile long, line from the pier to the LCDR station. The final plan I looked at was for a line to Canterbury which was proposed in 1872. There was another proposal for line to Canterbury in 1901 but this was a light railway and the LROs are at Kew apparently. One interesting thing is that all the lines looked at proposed to have their Herne Bay terminus in the same place, namely in front of Brunswick Square. From around 1840 to the 1960s, Brunswick Square had a church in the centre of it, and Herne Bay's first gas works lay in the street behind, suggesting a modeller would not need too much license to lay in a gas works siding. Quick bit on terminology. The line to link up with the C&W was called the Herne Bay and Canterbury Junction Railway and the 1872 proposal for a line to Canterbury was called the Canterbury and Herne Bay Railway. The short line to the pier laboured under the lengthy name of London Thames Haven and Kent Coast Junction Railway. The HB&CJR followed this route in the 1861 plan, the 1847 plan was much the same. The 1872 C&HBR was planned to follow this route As with the C&W there would have been a tunnel to take the sting out of St Stephen's Hill. Apart from that the gradients are quite reasonable. Back when I was 15 or 16 I cycled the minor road through Thornden Wood as the easiest way from Herne Bay to Canterbury as the gardients - St Stephen's excepted - were a lot easier than the ones along the main road. As I said, the Herne Bay terminus for both lines was in the same place. This is from the 1861 HB&CJR plan And this from the 1872 C&HBR plan Just for orientation purposes, Brunswick Street is today's Station Road and John Street is today's Pier Avenue. This later plan from an interwar guide book shows the modern street layout (though the far end of Pier Avenue is still called John Street) So there we are. I'll come back to this thread to speculate on how these lines might have been operated, and how the railway history of this part of Kent might have changed is further postings

Flash -- Queen

Let it go --- Queen Elsa

Another town another train -- Abba

To answer the questions: There are files in the archive of the objections raised to Parliamentary committees, but I haven't looked at those yet Don't know about copying services, I think they are suspended because of Covid though, but you can photograph anything for a £7,50 per day fee, which you can pay on arrival with plastic.

By the light of the silvery moon -- Morecambe and Wise (?). I have this vaguely recollection of them doing it anyway

What becomes of the broken hearted. - Jimmy Ruffin

The Railway Man is on BBC1 tonight.

Yesterday I paid my first visit to the Parliamentary Archives, which are actually inside the Palace of Westminster (you could hear a rowdy House of Commons through the walls of the lounge area). It was an interesting day. It goes without saying that the archivists were, as they are everywhere, helpful and interested in whatever research you are undertaking. I was greeted with "you must be the guy who wanted all that railway stuff" but not in a sneery way if you know what I mean. As some on other forums may know, I have an interest in both "imaginary railways" and in the railways of East Kent so I thought I'd start with looking at what the archives had on the several failed attempts to make a rail connection between Herne Bay and Canterbury. I also wanted to know more about one of the rival schemes to the South Eastern Railway being promoted in the 1830s and 1840s, namely the Central Kent Railway. As it happened I ran out of time and did little more than leaf through one of the set of plans for the Central Kent, so that will mean another visit. The first step is to order up documents and there is a search tool to find what is available on the Parliament website: https://archives.parliament.uk/our-collections/ The way to book a seat in the archive - only three researchers are allowed each day - and to order documents is described on the same website. It's little more than write an email. Then, what do you get? Well I give as an example the plans for the London Thames Haven and Kent Coast Junction Railway, a line whose title was nearly as long as the line itself, which was just over half a mile. All railways before the Light Railways Act, and major lines since, need to have a Parliamentary Act to authorise them. The Act gives them the legal status to demand land, by compulsory purchase if necessary, and to enter into contracts for building and operation. That's a lot of dry legalese and not much of interest to us there. However supporting the Act are the detailed plans of the route, the sections - for example to show how public roads are to be crossed - and the land that has to be taken. This is of interest. The numbers relate to properties and there is a reference which gives the land owners. Useful for genealogists but also useful for the description of the property on site. What is there today may not be the same as what was there in the mid nineteenth century So, for those looking to build an imaginary railway at a real location, this may be the place to start looking. Now would the London Thames Haven and Kent Coast Junction Railway have had use for a Manning Wardle ..........

I have to say congratulations to Exeter Chiefs for the way they handled a tricky cultural appropriation issue. A stroke of genius to replace the feather bonneted chief that was causing them difficulties with native Americans with an Iron Age Devonian. That Dumnonian chief promising a "warm" welcome to invaders from points East is a better fit for the Exeter pack than Sitting Bull ever was.

Tramp, Tramp, Tramp, the Boys Are Marching --- American Civil War song.

The Lady is a Tramp -- Frank Sinatra

That's why I went to 3mm scale some 40 years ago. And I've moved on from SE&CR modelling before any mainstream manufacture tumbled in

Eeek, I couldn't model with those fingernails!

Who Will Buy? -- Lionel Bart, Oliver

If you want to know who we are -- Opening number of The Mikado - Gilbert and Sullivan

From Me To You --- pre-Rubber Soul Beatles