letterspider

well shoot the messenger. i actually discussed the email I received with Andy York and he advised me that i or RMWEB could be sued if i published the email because it said it ws confidential so i respect that, but it was the legal threat from Dapol that stopped us.

also i got emails from respected and prominante people who have been threatened by Dapol themselves.

anyway the email did not say anything that cannot be guessed. Stuff like nothing wrong with our models, its not our fault, but there were some surprizing new news. That is what the buzz is about. I have also asked around at work like I was asked to do and there will be some shocking news to come.

 

Is it something to do with Dapol catenary - only you used the words 'buzz' and 'shocking' which I thought was a hint

Further to my last post 26th January, this is the running total of feedback from RMWebbers so far in the last 3 days. I haven't gone backwards before 26th January - I know many other members have complained. The data assumes all models returned are due to dissatisfaction. Notice that 12% of customers expressed disasstisfaction but kept the model.

 

23rd January - 26th  

Purchased 32

Returned 21

% Returned 66

 

Dissatisfied / Faulty 25

% Dissatisfied 78    

 

Will not buy first or subsequent model due to reviews / poor experience

3

Tidied up

 

 

23rd January - 26th  

Purchased 32

Returned 21

% Returned 66

 

Dissatisfied / Faulty 25

% Dissatisfied 78    

 

Will not buy first or subsequent model due to reviews / poor experience

3

Just read the review in the latest Horby magazine, they love it so the people on this forum must be the"ill-informed quibblers, who contradict each other" that they refer to.

 

At least the review in RM recognized some of the issues with the buffer beam and the livery.

 

E

 

 

Further to my last post 26th January, this is the running total of feedback from RMWebbers so far in the last 3 days. I haven't gone backwards before 26th January - I know many other members have complained. The data assumes all models returned are due to dissatisfaction. Notice that 12% of customers expressed disasstisfaction but kept the model.

 

23rd January - 26th   Purchased 32 Returned 21 % Returned 66 Dissatisfied / Faulty 25 % Dissatisfied 78     Will not buy first or subsequent model due to reviews / poor experience

3

In general shops will return items back until a good few months have passed. Some items might even sit on the shelves for a good before it is found faulty. I therefore think it is too early to tell on returns.

 

I have not had any physical defects on my pair despite being shipped abroad during the tail off period of the Christmas rush. However how many were return with actual physical defects? Probably very few as doubtless most modellers corrected them.

 

I don,t see anyone returning the item for incorrect paint colours however some sales would have been cancelled. This then begs the question, if there are more people out there prepared to accept this issue, and the run is very small, then demand will still outstrip supply.

 

Dapol have done an awful lot of liveries, even just 200 of each will still put us around 3000 models which would justify the costs. 200 is very small number so would easily find takers.

 

Publicly Dapol has said "all is well". Behind closed doors they might have absorbed the feedback. If they had sad "yeah we got the blue and yellow wrong" then what will be peoples expectation? Recalling and making a lot of new bodies? "That is ok Dapol, we will live it"?

There is no easy answer to that.

If the feedback is absorbed, the next batch will better but doubtless they need to shift the first batch first. Otherwise there will be no second batch.

 

You make it sound like they are 'dodgy' used car salesmen! Your point about the livery is right though, my guess is the Network Rail yellow will be one of the most, if not the most successful livery and they have lost any interest in the first batch.

I was going to buy a couple, but having followed this thread I decided to wait and see what happens, so there maybe 58 followers, but not all are purchasers.

 

Cheers, Bob.

 

Hi Bob

we don't know either way, which is why I was suggesting the straw poll.

Anyway, I am glad you were saved the expense of disappointment and return postage costs. Hopefully there will be future and correct batches...?

Sadly what I suspected earlier in the thread. I don't know what percentage of UK OO gauge modellers participate in forums, but I'd bet the figure is less than we'd imagine. I certainly do think we're in a minority. Are we picky? Yes, but in this case I think rightly so.

Dapol won't rush to correct a problem if they don't think there is a problem. If, as 47606odin says (above), Dapol are under the impression that most purchasers are happy with it, then the paint issues will stay. Get used to the lemony yellow and the purpley blue. The one issue they have owned up to is the PCB/decoder problem. That will get fixed. As much as I'd like to think Dapol are rushing out a second batch with better colours, bits that don't fall off and buffers that point in the right direction, I won't hold my breath.

 

Assuming that everyone following this topic (58) has bought a BR Blue loco and a production run of a livery is 500, then just under 12% of the purchases were made from RMWebbers; and the feedback has been overwhelmingly negative.

I'm sorry but the 'average' consumer is simply not going to buy a £120 highly detailed locomotive, essentially for a discerning modeller, when you can buy an entire Hornby trainset for under £100.

 

Dapol are operating in a niche market and as such the range of relationships with their target consumers are very narrow and must be very strong to succeed. The overwhleming response from this forum is that models are not sufficient quality for the price point.

We know from Dapol themsleves that the technical reasons are a mistake in the colour combinations chosen and poor quality control.

 

Joel's figures don't add up and I am afraid an analysis of them not only shows poor management and business acumen and a worrying denial to face up to the truth.

Companies which push through 'efficiencies' to save money are a feature of modern business. From my own experiences of it, the over-riding factor is that the company maintains consumer confidence, possibly at the same time they are providing a decreasing quality service or product.

 

Of course you are not going to see comments like this written up in any popular railway magazine where they are being bankrolled by the income from advertisers who have to sell these faulty products (many of them are probably breathing a sigh of relief right now)

 

This is why free forums like this one are vitally important both to the consumer and the manufacturer.

 

On a final note and to get this completely clear once and for all, I am proposing RMWebbers should conduct a straw poll of what number of 73 models they have already bought, how many were returned and their level of satisfaction. To keep it simple we will start off with the Class  73 in BR Blue.

 

I purchased 2 and sent them both back, satisfaction 0/5 (0 is lowest)

Although not perfect i'm sure i can live with it.

 

73101 pullman livery.jpg

 

Might need someone to respray 7 pullmans though! 

 

73101 with pullman.jpg

 

Graham.

 

Okay so the coaches are being made by your competitor but they are the reason why your locomotive is going to sell like hot cakes; now I would have kept an eye on the livery to make sure there would have been an acceptable match i.e. actually play with the models - doesn't anyone ar Dapol actually play with the models?

If a product is faulty then you have a right to return that product, but it could be a grey area to return an item due to the colours not being correct, although you could ask to exchange it, but it would have to be returned to the shop it was bought from and not the manufacturer which I think has been mentioned before. See Martin Lewis website for more info. as the laws have changed with regards to the sale of goods etc.

 

I returned my BR Blue to eHattons no problem, mind you I paid for the postage. I exchanged for the GBRf, which I am happy with. The colours are so bright that the lemon yellow warning panels are forgivable. However I had to pay the full price. This is after 8 months on the pre order waiting list.

In summary lost £10 on the pre-order price, £4 postage from eHattons to me for the BR Blue, £11 postage to send it back properly insured = £25

I will never buy another Dapol item on pre-order until I see cast iron assurances they are going to get things right and, considering the really poor after sales customer service, that's not going to happen. Considering the perilous nature of the UK and global economy this is not a case of Dapol shooting themselves in the foot so much as lying across the tracks of the busiest mainline, at night, wearing dark clothes.  

See whilst I see what your saying I actully think that this kind of thread might put people off who would otherwise been perfectly happy with their 73.

 

However my point is wider than this thread in paticular - personally I appreciate what this and other threads offer but sometimes it needs to be said that 'it's right if it looks right to you'.

 

Again - I'm not saying it's wrong to state the problems but if you didn't see them in the first place, is it right to be put off?

 

I don't think that would be the sort of buyer who would be paying over £110 for a model - they would be going for the Hornby/Lima model which has remarkably good detail considering the age of the moulding and is a good deal cheaper.

At this sort of price I (hope) I would be purchasing something that sets itself apart in terms of finer and more accurate detail, better running characteristics - all things which also make the model saleable in future on the 2nd hand market if I eventually sell them

This model is not ticking enough boxes for this price premium.

I had to send back the 73's I pre-ordered and it cost me £11 in postage. Even so I consider myself slightly fortunate the retailer took them back (as it isn't actually their fault). 30 days later and that wouldn't be the case. I am exchanging them for GBRF and Dutch variants only when I hear positive reviews on this thread.

Finally customer feedback is absolutely vital for a good business to develop in the right direction. I suspect the only way train manufacturers differ from other businesses is that they don't invest in focus groups before releasing a product. The irony being I am sure that many modellers would probably volunteer their services for free (or perhaps for a discount on the finished product!)

So they know they are wrong but have not offered to do anything about the ones that have been sold. Seems that despite an apparent new broom through the place the same poor customer service that p*ssed me off with their N gauge junk still exists.

So - what should Dapol be doing to salvage the reputation of this model?

So what did they actually say in their email to you?

I have been asked not to copy that exact message on to this forum...but in the reply it is mentions the exact mistake in the Pantone system of the (BR blue and yellow) livery applied (which is the one I enquired about) and what should have been ordered instead.

I did not enquire about other liveries.

You can make of it as you want and I assume they are happy to ride the storm at the moment. Perhaps if the second batch is okay in livery and electronics (and price) and gets to the UK pretty quickly then they can translate the clear frustration of us modellers into sales - I would probably buy one after awaiting positive reviews from members on this forum.

After reading back through 5 or 6 pages, as i model the southern and my Hornby/lima reissue grates me, can i assume that the large logo one "is the best of a bad bunch" so to speak. i so dearly want a new spec 73, but have been put off my preffered Intercity mainline one after seeing it in the flesh in Trains4u. i may have to opt for the Large logo one. there doesnt appear to be many comments about that particular model.  thanks.

I don't think anyone has had their hands on it yet. The retailers I have looked at, such as eHattons, suggest release sometime this week / next week. It is likely to be bad news again I'm afraid because the same colours appear on this model as BR blue and the colours selected for that model were wrong. How good are you with an airbrush?

I have figured out what has gone wrong. (Assuming the quality control officer wasn't colour blind) Dapol have let a few livery errors slip through, let's say about 100 examples in each colour scheme. They have corrected the problem but in the meantime the cost to produce the model has soared towards forcing an RRP of £130 to recoup the mistake etc. They are keeping back the other several hundreds of good examples.

 

They have let the bad samples into the UK to satisfy the loss making pre-orders, many of which are now being cancelled. Once the dust has settled, Dapol will announce that a corrected batch is being released and the prices will go even higher (I predict  £130 to £135). Everyone will have no choice but to fork out the extra £30 because these correctly liveried locos are not being made available to fulfil pre-orders and because we have all become hooked to the model.

The poorly liveried batch will be discounted, much to the pleasure of those collectors skilled at repainting and the displeasure of the eBay carpet baggers who bought multiple models at the pre-order price.

 

Unfortunate for the rest of us who just want to pay good money to buy a good model

 

I received a straightforward reply from Dapol as to what went wrong, as well as what needs correcting. Full credit to product development for being quick off the mark and forthright about it in response to an email request through their website. I would like to have seen this on this forum, if like me the major part of your hobby is this forum, as you have little time to play with your models.

Of course they do need to shift this first batch to recoup money but-  what should this loco be reduced to considering a professional respray is about £50?

I think the price should go down to £60 right now. They clear the faulty stock, us buyers wait several weeks for them to be resprayed and renumbered, by then we have fallen in love with the model all over again and have the option of the new batch with additional numbers. In the meantime everyone gets cash flow and shelf space.

Vote here and I will pass it on to Dapol!

I have figured out what has gone wrong. (Assuming the quality control officer wasn't colour blind) Dapol have let a few livery errors slip through, let's say about 100 examples in each colour scheme. They have corrected the problem but in the meantime the cost to produce the model has soared towards forcing an RRP of £130 to recoup the mistake etc. They are keeping back the other several hundreds of good examples.

 

They have let the bad samples into the UK to satisfy the loss making pre-orders, many of which are now being cancelled. Once the dust has settled, Dapol will announce that a corrected batch is being released and the prices will go even higher (I predict  £130 to £135). Everyone will have no choice but to fork out the extra £30 because these correctly liveried locos are not being made available to fulfil pre-orders and because we have all become hooked to the model.

The poorly liveried batch will be discounted, much to the pleasure of those collectors skilled at repainting and the displeasure of the eBay carpet baggers who bought multiple models at the pre-order price.

 

Unfortunate for the rest of us who just want to pay good money to buy a good model

Wonder if they have been resprayed, but the top coat is too thin and allows the undercoat to show through; your description reminds me of a silver 205 I had which after a bodywork repair was partly resprayed with the wrong shade of silver. Although it eventually emerged from the paint shop in the correct shade in some light conditions the panels in question took a different shade.

Purple is a complimentary shade to yellow. combining the colours should produce a light brown. So I expect a very light weathering of yellowy shades on the body will knock back the purple colour cast and result in brownish weathering effect. The warning panels are the problem as they are clearly lacking in red hues...really not happy I have to experiment with this after paying so much for a correct model.

Dapol it is about time you pulled your head out of the sand and talked to us about this problem, whether it can be solved and if you have a correct second batch on the way. We the consumers are here to support you but if you remain tight lipped, it is like sticking your fingers up to everyone.

It's sad to see so many poor comments regarding Dapol's latest model to the market. The good thing about forums such as this means you can make an informed choice if you decide to purchase. This is one attempt at customising my purple example, and hopefully it looks like something from the early 1970s. Converted to EM gauge with ease, but the electrical pick-up system is going to cause a few headaches in due course. I've fitted brass wire pick-ups onto the back of the solid brass wheels. There are apparently supposed to be a couple of small pods on the roof, and no doubt a few other small details which I've missed, but that's just about it.  

Looks good, what shades did you use for weathering?

Having just received a blue Class 73, I hate to say that I am disappointed. Correct livery is not a technical challenge - it was achievable in the 1980's. This is NOT a cheap model and all of its magnificent detail (and it is really very lovely fine detail in many places) cannot be enjoyed when you see the glaring mistake that has been made with the livery. The warning panel really is a sort of lemon yellow and the blue is just odd. It makes me realise just how good the LIMA model was for its time - unfortunately I sold one in mint coniditon to pay for this

If ony Dapol had sent a LIMA model in blue and yellow and told the manufacture 'paint it in the same colours' I am sure they would have struck gold with this model; as it is the £105 price mark is not going to be sustainable, let alone £119. My model is going back.

I don't have the nerve, the will or wherewithal to take an airbrush to something which costs more than the annual road tax on my car, irrespective of repainting it in pristine or weathered condition.

I know that I have a choice and don't need to buy this model but I wanted it to succeed and I wanted to support Dapol - however they have no choice but to go back to the drawing board and find out how they could have scored such a massive own goal and I hope they can salvage something from this.

However I don't think they can - I fear that their supplier finds their volume of business more of an irritation than not and doesn't take them as seriously as they could. The fact the factory is half way around the world is irrelevant - we have internet, we have colour standardisation charts and you can always send the sample by courier

 

Update: The problem appears to be the type of paint that is being used. The 'lemon effect' is more pronounced under bright white led lighting and it is a slightly wamer yellow (almost acceptable) under fluorescent or warm white leds. I am assuming this is due to fluorescence of the dye in the paint used. There is no problem with my other Bachmann or Hornby models. I feel sorry that Dapol were caught out by this but there it is. I suppose the Heath Robinson solution would be to sell this item with a free packet of incandescent bulbs?

-

Just received an email from Hattons

 

We write with regards to the Bachmann Wickham trolley you have on order with us. When you placed the order we did not have an accurate price for this model as we had not been given the RRP information by the manufacturer. However, we have now been informed that the RRP for this model is £79.95.

 

This is quite a large price rise from £40 - it even outdoes commuter rail fare increases!. Hattons do go on to say

This means that the Hatton’s price will be £67.96 which is exactly 15% below the RRP. We recognise that this is a higher price than we originally thought but have been keen to stress at all times that the price was estimated price and subject to rise.

 

At an estimate of £1 a gram - it is considerably more than the price of Silver!

Hi Adrian,

Looking forward to seeing progress. I have a similar situation (though smaller at 15x18') where I need an 'official office' but will have shelf rack 'slots' around the walls for a modular system. Shades of Iain Rice meets foam baseboards.

 

2,400mm per module sounds large, how often do you need to move them? Will they fit through doors/trapdoor?

 

Good luck!

Steve.

Have you started your layout blog yet?

Okay so I will play downstairs instead.

Marking out the layout on to the first board

experimenting with Hot Glue to hold down the cork underlay.

It works really well. The bond is strong in seconds.

I am experimenting using Wickes cork tiles. At 3.2mm thick I am hoping the ballast shoulder will look authentic once it is stuck down.

 

 

 

Was just completing the loft insulation when I found this

 

 

It looks like there will be no layout until its repaired

 

 

Updated track plan for the stabling point.

 

There are now two lanes for loco refuelling so that locomotives don't block the exit lane from the inspection shed during refuelling, sanding etc (I assume it takes a long time?)

I have also added a stabling point for TTA fuel tankers delivering fuel to the depot and a head shunt.

 

I have a question regarding the suitable signalling at the EXIT point if anyone knows what would be appropriate?

 

Hi Adrian,

Looking forward to seeing progress. I have a similar situation (though smaller at 15x18') where I need an 'official office' but will have shelf rack 'slots' around the walls for a modular system. Shades of Iain Rice meets foam baseboards.

 

2,400mm per module sounds large, how often do you need to move them? Will they fit through doors/trapdoor?

 

Good luck!

Steve.

Hi Steve

I also have 1200mm modules. The 2400mm modules will fit through the trapdoor no problem. The width is the issue. It does mean that any scenery fixed to the baseboard cannot be much more than 20cm high. However I am planning to have all the buildings removable.

Once I have the supports down they won't need to be moved. I am using this approach because I want to concentrate a lot on the scenery. This way I can add width to the modules front or back. 

Here is an initial track plan which I made up in AnyRail 5 made up of two 2400mm baseboard modules end to end.

It is a marshalling yard for permanent way with stabling point.

I haven't made up my mind whether to put the washing plant, inspection shed and fuelling plant on the right hand baseboard instead of the left, as I will need plenty of space for the staff car park, storage areas etc.

 

Comments welcome please!

 

Hi everyone

after two years of work in my loft I feel I may finally start a layout and some advice would be appreciated.

 

I have settled on a location, somewhere near Walthamstow / South Tottenham on the GOBLIN line. The line is has some interesting freight flows. Aggregates, cars, cement trains and Intermodals as well as local commuter trains.

 

I haven't made up my mind on which period to model but as I am concentrating on heavy freight I think my current rolling stock and motive power will make the decision for me (largely EWS era). However the timeline will assume that the Channel Tunnel was completed 15 to 20 years earlier during the BR blue and grey era and hopefully this will allow me to run pretty much anything across a very wide period.

 

Space in the loft should not be a problem. I have 20' x 20' area with plenty of headroom but as it also has to double up as an office I am intending to build my layout onto modules which can be placed end to end or side to side along the walls at waist level, with storage underneath

 

So far I have constructed several 2400mm x 600mm styroboard modules, which have 3mm ply sides and 9mm ply ends. This will allow modules to be moved in and out of the loft and also can be easily lifted by one person.

 

Track power will be DCC using a copper strip bus with regular droppers. At some point I assume a power booster may be needed. Track at baseboard joints will be soldered on to copper clad strip screwed into the 9mm ply.

 

Questions

 

1/ At this time the idea is to have modules with double track reaching the ends at defined positions, so modules can be added or interchanged if necessary

I am considering this to be from 3 to 4 cm from the edge and wondering if members can advise me of the pros and cons of being this close to the edge. (It should be enough space to stop derailments falling off altogether)

 

2/ I am intending to lay track on to cork and cork on to styrofoam. I am familiar with track laying and ballasting using PVA but advice on laying the cork onto the styrofoam would be appreciated. I hear that PVA is not good on styrofoam. I am thinking about using hot glue. For that matter is there any reason why the track can't be fixed with hot glue - its certainly a lot quicker drying.

 

3/ I have given up on the idea of catenary. I have scratchbuilt it in the past and it is very costly on time and materials and it always seems like there is going to be a compromise. However I am toying with putting down 3rd rail. Is it too far fetched to find diesels towing AC electrics over 3rd rail? 

 

Adrian