imt

If you are changing things you could use the double slip at the other end of the goods loop at 23 to provide a trap (and maybe a head shunt if room?).  There seems to be an indication there already on your plan above, but maybe you intend just to simulate one and not bother further.

21 minutes ago, hartleymartin said:

The placement reflects what happens when you trim about 80mm off the diverging road

I thought I should mind my own business!  I had similar problems on my layout mixing Peco SetTrack and Streamline - fortunately my package lets me create fillets and stick them in.  Good luck with your project.

2 hours ago, hartleymartin said:

A bit of a squeeze on 90cm x 40cm baseboards, but you can certainly manage it

Just passing this way and saw your plan.  Don't think it fits?  The ST725 does not mate with the point!  Maybe there is another bit that does?

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Andy's idea with in and out connections central and perpendicular to board ends and using 2 asymmetric 3-way points (and two others):

That's a good wheeze from you both - I'd not seen it before and I have copied it into my ideas box.  Could come in handy some time!

On 05/04/2019 at 19:17, WIMorrison said:

I found that creating 2 busses with the track bus protected with a NCE EB1 cut out and the accessory bus direct from my controller solved the issues

Mine have behaved oddly from time to time along the lines of Paul above.  I have had some replaced over time.  The thing that "solved" it all is Iain's solution as above.

18 minutes ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

and the KESR was a light railway so different rules applied. 

I'm surprised they had any signals at all?

I must express my disappointment too that NCE do not seem to update or extend their range.  Certain things could do with more modern and more capable chips put in them - all that said I have used it for 5 years and ALL of my equipment does EXACTLY what it says on the tin!  You cannot ask for more I don't think.  I started with a PowerPro, then added a ProCab, when my requirements exceeded the available macros in the PowerCab I added 2 NCE MiniPanels to control accessories.  When I needed more oomph I upgraded to an SB5.  Now I have just added a USB connection so I can experiment with using JMRI to control the accessories.  So I can say it does expand - if only in the limited way I wanted.

I started knowing nothing and learned.  Maybe if I started again I'd have something with CabBus or better accessory control.

As all those above have said - try to get some advice.  But don't panic, 'cos most systems are expandable and developable in various ways.

Good luck.

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I think it needs some input from the Stationmaster, of this parish.

Absolutely agreed.  But to ensure his atytention it would be best to post a copy in the Signalling thread - then all us amateurs acan listen and learn

3 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

I could quite easily lose the level crossing.........its only there because I 'wanted' one, I have an image in my head that a railway needs a level crossing 

Don't do anything of the sort - Rule 1 applies at the very least (it's your railway etc.) but just avoid putting a signal there - it ain't right at all.

3 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

So would that be positions 1 & 5 on Martin's post

No you are not thick - you should have heard the opprobrium thrown at me the first time i put some signals on a layout (a few years ago now!).  That's why I set out to learn, and I am still learning.  Be very aware I may get chewed off yet (it's a local sport!).

Sorry but there is no way on earth that there would be a stop signal just beyond a level crossing.  As there is no room to sight and apply brakes the (section) signal would HAVE to be on the other side of the tunnel.

Frankly shunt discs here are to taste, but they really are not essential.

On 26/02/2019 at 08:13, Harlequin said:

 

Edit: 

 

 

I think the above layout is where you are at now - though you have been tidying up the left hand end.

Health warning - I am an interested amateur, and there are plenty of professionals around who regularly tick me off for getting things wrong.  I love it and learn a lot.  Just don't take my sole word for it.  If you want the kosher answer post the plan in the Signalling Forum.

I think this station is a candidate for one engine in steam - so there wouldn't be any need for signals at all, just posts where they used to be.  But I am sure that's not how you want it.  SO ...

1 starter signal at the right hand end of the platform and one on the right hand end of the loop.  Shunting across a level crossing and into a tunnel would be unusual (but each separately are not unheard of) so there is no real need for any shunting signals.  The crossover of the (platform) head shunt and engine shed would be locked normally to the platform and the shed - so a loco cannot intrude onto the passenger line, rather like the trap just before the level crossing (though if you extended that a bit it would be a good place to leave a guards van (have a little pile of coal for the guard's stove?).  Now the crossover could be controlled by the signal box or a local ground frame, unlocked by the signal box.  This is so small I expect the signal box would control the crossing and the signalman lean out of his window with a green flag to say OK.  The signalman would have placed his home signal to danger until the shunting was over, so once that is done who needs any more signals?

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Your item 1 comment is not correct,. A splitting miniature arm would be 100% typical LMR for the signal at the platform end.

For clarification, and just for my own education and future reference,  I was suggesting the splitting main arms were incorrect certainly before the platform - high up on the left blue line.  My understanding was that as a goods train would not be run direct into the goods yard but first be brought to a stand, hence pre-signalling a splitting branch was incorrect, was that that not right? I understand that at the station starter a miniature arm could be used to signal a train into the yard.  I also understand (and said) that the double slip in that position was unusual.

29 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

*I'm not looking forward to the signal placement because I know it's going to be too complicated and confusing for me to comprehend

I doubt it!  Probably a grand total of 2 are essential

EDIT sorry this is now a bit repetitious - I did this post and hour ago and it has just appeared!

I have had a good look at your "diagram" and photos.  What is not clear on the diagram is that the station platforms are up to points 1 and 2.

It would be better if some of the professionals had made these comments as I expect I am wrong BUT...

1) you would not run a goods train into the yard on signals.  It would be brought to a stand before it was then signalled in - so the splitting main arms before the station platform and after it on the blue line are most unlikely.  I would suggest a subsidiary arm at the end of the platform (a shunt disc would be unusual but not impossible).  I actually think that the 2CB connection should not be there (i.e. it should have been another single slip giving a crossover from green to blue or out of the yard to green.

2) the signal halfway along the blue line above the 19 is not needed.  You would not signal a train away or through if there was shunting going on - its too close to the points.  The same for the ones at before 20 and 17.  Any train would be kept well away from this area during shunting and you would not bring a train up to these signals whilst shunting was going on just in case the train overran (misjudgement or slippery lines would be disastrous) - obviously a stopping train already at a halt on the blue platform is a different matter.

I think it has already been said that the discs at 1 should be moved left to the top of 1.  The signal between 19 and 21 should be a disc and moved left to the main green line beyond the slip.  The main signals between 17 and 1 and before 20 are superfluous.

I would suggest that the main signal at 18 should be a disc and at the toe of 18.  You could have another yellow disc to the right of 18 on the way out of the shed (point 18 would be normally locked to the shed so that probably doesn't matter).  The signal at the left of the Programming Track should be a disc again and ought to be before a trap point.  The usual joke of wiping out the signal box rather than a passenger train applies!

There would be a section signal somewhere beyond and to the right of 22 - but it might well not be visible on your model.  Shunting of the yard will require the distance between 22 and that signal in some cases.  There may be a case for a disc at the toe of 22, but I image a shunter (real person) would be in charge of that area and would be communicating with the signalman for permission to do things on the main line.

I hope that all helps you think through what you need.  You really need to think out how you are going to move trains, shunt goods, move light engines - and then get the signals for those movements.  Over-signalling is not a capital offence, but as in real life, signals cost money and need maintenance.

Wide-to-gauge trap points - see here 

There are many other references - just type your search into the RMWeb search box.  MUCH better than it used to be.

I strongly suggest you dont actually try to model them unless you feel driven to, but you might be able to set up some kind of dummy.

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

To get the incoming trains on the upper platforms to somewhere that they can depart involves a shunt on the down

Not since the OP agreed a trailing crossover in front of the signal box.

Really good to see what you have done.  I made a lightweight shelf layout using 5 mm foamcore throughout - and it worked well and was very lightweight, as it needed to be for my situation then.  I went back to the heavyweight ply approach for my bigger layout - but always thought there must be a lighter way to do it.

17 hours ago, James Harrison said:

And it makes things a little more flexible operationally too.

Yes, I think it does.  Before anybody can help you much with signalling you do need to think through the traffic movements you are likely to want.  As I have been politely told many times by the signalling gurus - installing signals and maintaining them is expensive and so signals are only put where needed.  You also might like to think about the slip out of the "goods" area - if it isn't a double maybe it ought to be for security; that is isolating the movements in the goods yard from the passenger lines.  Following on from that maybe one of the spurs towards the signal box ought to be longer to provide a head shunt?  If you don't you will have to use the out main line to shunt the yard??

You might find it useful to have a trailing crossover in front of what I assume is the signal box on your entry/exit lines.  May make egress from your top 2 platforms easier.  Even if they were arrival only, you still need to get stock and maybe locos out.  If the top platform was only for milk/parcels/mail you could I suppose arrive on the next platform down, run round and propel it in from the entry line: but then how do you get it out again?

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

What I did find though was that perfect alignment of both types is critical including height and distance, as well as angle of attack.

Sorry to hear that I was not the only one to experience the problems - as I tried to reassure transferman.  But after the frustration I found they were totally reliable.  And you?

17 hours ago, Barnaby said:

Bloody hell Brian, birds nest or what? 

Don't believe all the propaganda.  Much as I love DCC there are lots of wires under the baseboard and in the control systems.  There are (as Barnaby said) lots of droppers - and as he recommended there is one to each bit of track for good contacts.  There is also in my case an accessories bus, connector wires between an NCE PowerCab and auxilliary ProCab and a few IRDOT connectors.

DCC doesn't help with control of signals an points very much, except more long numbers and multiple key presses, so you end up having to do more.  My locking and control - which sends out DCC commands to the accessories - is built round 2 NCE MiniPanels.  Lots of wires in there just like yours!  The bottom panel of course goes on the top of the box.

HOWEVER there are only 2 wires to the layout - 1 flat NCE bus cable and one similar cable that connects to some sensors.  Much easier to connect up.  My layout has a splitter underneath which takes off the accessory command into a separate bus.

1 minute ago, 57xx said:

FOR I HAVE ACHIEVED GOLDNESS

Oh no you haven't - where's the Gold Coin on your post!

On 24/02/2019 at 14:17, Broadway Clive said:

I bought and tried it many years ago but found it wasn't really practicable for my layout

On 24/02/2019 at 14:17, Broadway Clive said:

Nevertheless there are some excellent ideas behind Wagonflo such as those that require one to estimate the type of goods and the quantity of wagons needed at each of ones local destinations on different days, and the frequency of movements, and I've used those to make my own system on an Excel spreadsheet

I think many of us feel the same.  Any chance of sharing your spreadsheet - either publicly or privately?

5 hours ago, Izzy said:

I tried cassettes a few layouts ago. Spent most of the time, 75% perhaps, changing them to do the simplest of movements.

I have gone for an expensive alternative which will not please many.  I have a fan of sidings AND pairs of Peco Locolifts "stuck" together (long battens) which mean I can have a loaded fiddle yard to start with and the take off and replace trains using the "Carriage Lifts" into some storage boxes with lengths of rail in them to run the stock off into/pull it into a "carriage lift" from.  Specials like Sleepers, Mail and Motorail inevitably have to be put on/taken off.  Some planning and use of DMU sets (or their equivalent) means quite a lot of the time it can be an in/out process without changing stock.  Some stock I reverse as the sides are different as suggested above.

17 hours ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

David, you don’t have to buy a turntable.  

I think this is in the wrong thread?  This is about traversers not turntables?

3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Presumably, there would be about five classes of trains that would arrive at the station with some subtly different operating patterns:

• Mail/Parcels/Newspapers arriving first and being shunted with outbound traffic
• Sleepers arriving and the coaches being gently shunted to a lesser used platform and the station pilot not hanging around nearby, before being taken away to the carriage yard
• Long distance trains, operated as per standard pattern above
• Short distance trains, operated via a tank loco that doesn't need to be turned
• A push-pull commuter train, that don't need to even run around and can immediately depart.

I only have a 4 track fiddle yard too.  Your list of ideas and trains is pretty much what I do and it all works quite well.  Mind you I only have 2 platforms so it's pretty intensive! The short distance trains are DMU's the push-pull/autotrains are 121s and I also have a Motorail train in/out (nostalgia ain't what it used to be!).  I do need to load and unload stock - so I have some cassettes made from two loco-lifts joined together which lift 2 coaches and storage boxes with an open end into which stock can be run from the carriage lifts.

It's quite amazing the amount of traffic you can create with a timetable/WTT/movements diagram.