imt

That you ask the question may mean you don't understand that DCC goes everywhere all the time (or ought to).  You don't need insulating sections to keep one loco/DMU/EMU or whatever from the rest of the track/locos because locos (or whatever motive power) ONLY move when you tell them to - by selecting their address on your controller and twidding the knob (or whatever).  Moving the knob back to zero means it stops, and will not move again unless you tell it to.  Meanwhile you can select another loco and cause that to move, or even have one running round and round your circuit whilst you move another (not into its path of course!). So power everywhere, no instruction no move.  If you do have insulfrog points bypass them by putting in line feeds on every siding and several round each circuit.

Dave I cannot do what you want, but can I please ask (given they are properly placed everywhere else) why there is no trap or other protection by the down platform starter?  Its probably just my ignorance.

I am also confused by the signal on the up main with 3 apparent routes - I can see no destinations - or are they off scene?

Iain

20180826_00001.pdfI have had a quick bash at this - but there are a lot of confusions arising as others have said.  I have two others you need to think about - is the goods line to be used as the head shunt for your exchange sidings?  How does traffic leaving the bay get to the down line?  You have vulnerabilities in your goods area with a running line passing through it. It may need some trap points to prevent "run aways" getting out, this would be essential if it were a passenger line - in this case it's a safety issue.

Basically you have far too many running signals unless everything is bi-directional - some of the signals could even be "off model".  If you have not yet built this you need to think about the crossover on the right between the running lines and whether something like a single slip out of the parcels/bay area and a point on the down line allowing traffic in and out onto their appropriate lines.  It would be better if the goods line met the goods loop and the current goods line were a separate head shunt - much cleaner and safer all round.  Up goods are a bit of a problem unless you can connect the loop to the up line - else they will have to go through the station and set back over the right hand side crossover.

If you haven't built this please think about changing the design.

You haven't said if the intention is to run both layouts separately at the same time.

 

If not, you don't really need two PowerCabs, only an extra PCP and a ProCab handset.

 

 

.

As Ron says - my first diagram shows having both layouts remain separable.  If you don't HAVE 2 PowerCabs and you are definitely keeping them together then save money and buy a ProCab for the second layout.  I went that way some time back - which is why my current layout diagram shows a ProCab on my fiddle yard.  Getting the two joined together is really a function of buying some RJ12 fitted flat cable - something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/kenable-FLAT-RJ12-6P6C-Cable/dp/B00838WU5E or you can buy the cable and do it yourself.  I did that because I have 6 separable baseboards and I wanted to be able to break the cable in places and put plugs in for board crossings.  You can buy an RJ crimper set with accessories like a continuity tester quite cheaply if you really only need a few joints see https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RJ45-Cat5e-RJ11-Lan-Network-Ethernet-Cable-Crimping-Tool-Tester-Crimper-Stripper-/122043249390.  They are obviously not as good as the professional stuff - but it served me for my purpose.  The second problem is "breaking in" to the track wiring distribution for the second layout.  If it has a good bus structure that could be as easy as a 6" piece of wire to join two ends together (using a pluggable choc strip say) - otherwise it might mean setting up a bit of lighting flex all the way under your baseboards to connect the feeds together..

Excuse me butting in but I find diagrams are helpful.  I started running with a PowerCab and have extended it several times.  What I think you are needing to do is below, together with an example of where I have now got to.  Please note you will need to attach the track power output of the main PowerCab to the main distribution point for the second layout - else there will be no power on the second layout to control and nothing will move.

Thanks to all those who helped me.  I today extended the motor feed wire which had not just been cut but cut short, re-insulated it and soldered it back to the motor as advised above.  Having tested that it still worked on DC, I then fitted a DCC-Concepts 6 pin Zen in the socket and a TCS KA4 in the cab.  I needed to remove the other "seat" in the cab - but then the 14mm cube fitted in easily.  Goes beautifully with its short wheelbase over all my complex point work (next time I MUST lay it all better!)  and runs for 10 secs. after power is removed.  You MUST remember to bring it to a halt before switching the booster off.

My layout uses DCC Concepts IP Digital point motors which I've been controlling using an NCE Powercab. I've now started work on a control panel, and after some research I've settled on DCC Concepts Alpha D switches. These are working fine on single points, and on crossovers using Y-connectors. However I have a couple of 3-way points and I can't for the life of me figure out how to connect up the switches to make each set of two motors work (at the moment I use NCE macros to control them).

 

Does anyone know how to do this?

 

Many thanks,

 

Dom

Try page 6 of this - or phone them, they are patient and endlessly helpful.  https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/dcc-advice-11-wiring-pointwork-and-special-track-conditions-for-dc-or-dcc/

Yeah, I would have had a Zimo or Lenz but the Lais come with the connectors for Stay Alive and I didn't want to risk messing up a chip for the first try.

If it helps for the future, lots of suppliers now provide pre-wired "stay alive" wires.  DCC-Concepts and Hattons own to name but 2. I have used them both cos I didn't fancy trying to solder things onto chips!  You pays your money .............

I think the best thing to do is Google "Arduino DCC encoder" or "Arduino DCC decoder".

 

I wrote a simple decoder program a few years back but I'm not sure I can find it now.

 

If you want to make an encoder I reckon that all you need apart from the Arduino is a power supply and a h-bridge module or chip. I am no longer using DCC myself but the Infineon TLE5206 h-bridge chip that I have been using for a club DC project should be appropriate. It has a max of 5 amps and has short-circuit protection. Of course you also need some means to give control inputs - maybe a keypad or a PC linked to the Arduino.

 

...R

Thank you for your time.  I have already built a control system using NCE Mini-panels and a "one button route setting panel" for my layout.  It was fun and works a treat.  I was wanting to look at taking it further - but that needs a DCC encoding system - either on a chip or in a program - and a method of injecting the output onto the accessory bus.  Your info will help me dig further.

Referring to the pre-DCC installation photos here  https://clarahost.cl...l03dccinstr.htm  firstly re- fit the black insulation sleeve over the loose leg and then solder it's end to the top brass (upstanding) motor brush tag 

Thank you.  I'll need to extend the wire a bit and I have some shrink tubing to go on it afterwards - but BEFORE I solder it onto the brass bit!

 

You can build DCC encoders and decoders with an Arduino - and have as much or as little capability as you want.

 

...R

Thanks - there's something I didn't know and I'd always wanted to try to program something myself (no NOT JMRI!) and this is great news.  Any details on how I lay my hands on the necessary?

Do the photos at https://clarahost.clara.net/www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/bachmanncl03dccinstr.htm help?  There is a photo of the connections as made before any DCC installation.

Thanks for taking the time.  I had looked at your wonderful pages both before and after my stupidity.  Its the wire nearest on the bottom photo - but the orange caps have been cut off - detaching that wire in the process.  I need to know what to attach it to.  Any ideas?

Do you have a multimeter? ?

(If not; why not?...it can cost less than a single silent decoder)

If so, use it to confirm your identification of each path.

This includes passing through any wound wire component ....but any capacitors will be across...from one path to another.

The motor will show a resistance of about 20ohms or so.

The green bodied components are the inductors but the capacitors soldered to the motor can (often 3 with one hidden beneath) be removed.

Thanks for taking the time - but I don't quite understand. The wire is detached - caused by my cutting off the capacitors (carelessly?) so I need to know where to solder the wire back on.  Will a multimeter help (yes I have one) - further instruction appreciated.

This should have been straightforward since this is a DCC ready model.  BUT .....  having "run it in" on a roundy roundy test track for a few hours I proceeded to cut off the suppressors - and made a mistake.  There were three of them very clumsily (my excuse) soldered with large globules of solder.  I managed to cut something I didn't mean to cut!

I have given myself a stern talking to and taken two pieces of my own advice:

1) don't panic,

2) do nothing until somebody else has looked at the problem.

Attached is a photograph.  The problem is the piece of wire I have pulled out to the right and removed the insulation from.  It looked much as the wire to the left.  I think is came from the brass fitting at the bottom of the picture.  The wire appears to be brown, but the other is orange so I think this is what I have seen in the past as a grey wire and is a motor power feed.

I believe - unless somebody knows better - that I need to extend the wire and solder it to the brass upstanding piece and properly insulate the base wire lest it touch what seems to be the metal of the motor.

Advice please.

The tracks converge around the corner, At some point around the curve there will not be sufficient room for trains to pass. The tracks can be as wide as you like on the moving deck but the track centrelines should be as close as possible at the edge of the deck say 22 mm with slepers overlapped , see middle drawing 93a png so it moves only 66 mm for aa 4 road from full left to full right Actually with DC wiring it can come right down to about 18mm with the left rail of one road actually being the right rail of the next road.    see lower drawing  93a Png   Next plan is a desktop plan to actually interlace the tracks to reduce the travel even further, there is no way are my building skills equal to that one

I have made a test mule with laminate flooring deck sliding on a laminate flooring base but I have not yet incorporated one into a layout. The curves ideally will be 3rd or larger radius set track (mine is 1st radius) all the curves are the same radius and only the inner curve goes to the edge of the traverser deck. the rest have straights added, Ideally one will set the inner track up first and when it runs perfectly think about adding the next ones. 

Thank you for the all the info.  I had sort of gathered that the curves would become closer together - it looked that way on your first diagram. This is a brilliant space saver idea and looks quite practical to do.  I could understand that the first track would curve all the way, but I hadn't thought about the subsequent tracks actually being straight!  Brilliant!

<snip>  my "Hockey stick" design slides lengthways and exchanges a foot or so lengthways for a foot or so sideways, 1 sq ft for 6 sq ft.  <snip

 

I love the design.  Have you built one - or is it just theoretical?  How does one "make" the curves to fit?

I’m lost - who is quoting what and from whom and who is making responses to what?

Nigel and my posts answering the same list of questions  from the OP at post #48 overlapped.  I agree entirely with Nigel's post - which is what I was trying to say rather less well.  Had I known Nigel was replying I would have stayed out of it as he is far more knowledgeable than I.

The problem with post #48 is that the questions from the OP are embedded in other quotes - hence confusing!

Quoting your post which is somewhat entangled with you quotes:

 With six locomotives on the track and nothing running plus the six signals from Train Tech and 11 colbolt IP digital point motors my PowerCab is reading .19amp and thats before anything moves.

Nowt wrong with that - the PowerCab is a 2 amp system.  However I note the Cobalts!

Single point moves show .31amp on the PowerCab.

Double point moves go up .42amp.

Oh yes! My problem too - try writing a macro to throw all 7 at once - you'll be lucky to see less than 0.8!  But their background load is so small as to have not much effect.  They certainly don't stop/interfere with Programming on Main (or rather mine don't).  Please don't try operating your layout AND PoM at the same time though!

One Hornby class 31 running is between.26 .28 .29amps on speed 014.

A loco sitting there is hardly measurable.  One ticking over on sound might be 0.03 amps.  Anyway - you have a 2 amp system.

Because I did not have a program track I programmed the signals once they were on the track via accy, and I if I had a loco on there that might of interfered with the Chips?

That should not have been a problem.  Accessories are completely different to locos - have different numbering and different commands.  I have 9 TrainTech and 2 CRS signals - they don't interfere with PoM either.  I cannot see why a point or signal in "program mode" awaiting an address would somehow cause problems with locos.  This is why I have a separate track altogether for programming locos - with a couple of croc clip flying leads to attach to point motors or signals to give them addresses away from the layout.  You can do this easily by buying a second PCP faceplate.  I have a second power supply but you could just use your current one and move it accross.  Attach the faceplate to a piece of track and hey presto a separate programming track!

I added 7th train tech signal with the class 31 still on speed 14 the PowerCab is between .28-.31amps.

A TrainTech signal according to the owner will take approx 10-12 milli amps (or 0.01 amps) - so that's all right.

I hope this helps and makes sense and apologies to everyone for any confusion I my have caused.

This all looks fine - except Cobalts in operation - so I still don't know what your problem is?  I was advised to have a separate accessory bus, but that is just split off the track lead from the PowerCab.  My higher power demand of extra things on the accessory bus was such that I needed more power to operate when locos would be running and I was changing signals and setting routes (multiple Cobalt setting) all at once.

[What are your loco decoders?  Did you fir them yourself or are they DCC fitted? Is it poor quality decoders?] I have just looked back to the beginning - you have a lot of different decoders!

I've never been any good with understanding semaphore signalling so am requesting help from people that know about it. I have drawn up my layout plan and would kindly ask for your help in what signals to use and where.

My layout is called Ffarquhar and is set on the Island of Sodor, but I am looking to signal it correctly.

if you require any additional information than please ask and I will, all being well, provide.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul

I am not a signalling expert - but I can get this thing going for you.  They need year/era company and what the layout is about - i.e. what is this private line and what does it do (colliery, milk bottling, beer, quarry?). Is this a mainly goods/freight line or if not what is the passenger service - i.e. a to and fro autotrain or DMU or a full passenger service (how many per hour?).

Would this be worth buying for £20 to enter the world of DCC?. To be using on a shunting layout with two locos on the tracks at the same time

This was my starter too.  Quickly grew out of it, but I added a couple of point motors and a signal and found out more about how it all worked.  It cost me more than £20.  Don't forget you need to put chips in your locos too!

There are a number of DCC accessories around which need to be programmed on the programming track before they can be used on the layout.  This doesn't mean, though, that there is insufficient power from the PowerCab to enable them to run, so your view that a booster is needed is probably not necessary, at least for the time being.

 

What you need to do is monitor the current being drawn by everything you have connected to the PowerCab, so you need to display the current being used on the PowerCab handset.  To do this keep pressing PROG/ESC until you get to SET CAB PARAMS.  First option is SHOW TRK CURRENT. Press 1 to select Yes, then press PROG/ESC until you are back at the operating screen.

Heartily endorse what BromsMods says - he is one of the Guru's, if now a little less active than he was.  It is his advice in the second para. - display the current used - which helped me home in on my problem, which WAS the need for more power.  In your case I don't think that it is. Anyway find out about your power consumption - it is both interesting and useful.

PERSONALLY I don't use Program on Main and have a separate board with a metre of track on it and a PowerCab PCP which has power and I can plug my PowerCab into away from the layout - much cheaper than a switch.  There is nothing inherently wrong with Program on Main, you can only re-program the loco you identify by its address (you needn't take things off!) BUT I am getting old and forget things and complications can arise.  You can make a couple of flying leads with croc clips to program points and signals with from a separate programming track - hence setting them up before you put them on the layout.

<snip>

The Next part I am not so sure about, The six Signals I did have on the track caused interference with the power cab for programming for chips resulting in the code 255 on the Power Cab. Thank you also to RAF Rob for IMT their latest information about Boosters. 

 

As the Power Cab can't handle the signals and the points and programming all at the same time ( not necessarily all at the same as that is almost impossible ) I need to have a booster for the signals, now if thats going to happen do I then need a separate power supply for lighting or would the system Rob recommended do the trick? The reason for asking is I want to put lighting in the engine shed and possibly have lights for the station at some stage, so would the SB5 booster from NCE be ok for the job or would be plug and or something similar. Don't worry this is not going to happen overnight its just something I would like to do in the future.

 

The main thing here is to get the signals running and not interfering with the PowerCab, when I commissioned the layout to be built I did not think that I would decide that I would like lights and colour signals, these were thought after the layout had been built, thats my poor planning...

 

Once Again thank you  to you all.

 

Jonathan.

I am not sure that I understand your problem.  The PowerCab should be able to support 6 signals plus a few locos.  Whose are they?  My TrainTech ones use 10-12 milli amps each not much of a load.  Nor can I see what things on different addresses to your locos can interfere with anything.  Do you have point motors?  I have just had to buy my booster because my Cobalts demanded too much when fired by a control system (peaking at 0.8 amp when 7 fired at once!).  This with other loads meant all kinds of crazy things happened. Hence my need for a booster!  I now all works well.

Why would you want to run building lights from the layout supply?  Surely you would use a separate DC supply for them?  Or have I misunderstood again?

Maybe you should list out what you have and what you want so the experts can talk you through it?

That's a really helpful diagram imt. It show the CP6; is that really what you use off the 5A supply?

Phil

It's a case of what I could afford at the time (which was before the booster) - I'd spent rather a lot on the control system etc. so couldn't afford the clever electronics.  I have 3 rail buses and one accessory bus.  They are not an ideal solution and maybe I'll get something better eventually - but now the £150 for the booster has kind of blown my pocket money!  It is noticeable that NCE continue to refer to them on page 2 of the SB5 manual (2013 version which is what came with my SB5!).  You can also get larger "bulbs" if you wish (1.7 amps rather than 1). I assure you it does work - for me anyway.

I have had a PM asking me what I meant about the PowerCab still being Cab2.  Those who know on here please excuse this but I though my diagram might help some others.  See attached.

I have a 2 controller set up, one for my main station and one for my fiddle-yard.  The one for the fiddle yard is a ProCab so both controllers look and work the same.  Each controller or other gizmo on the bus has to have a number - the PowerCab automatically has an address of "2" - you can set/change these in various ways.  If you add an SB5 and still want the PowerCab to continue to be used as a stand-alone system (for testing or loco CV setting say) DON'T change its address.

I am beginning to look at JMRI so I have an NCE USB attachment for my PC.  This has an address of 3 (changeable from the computer as I understand it) and in the past - because of Cab address limits on my PowerCab - I had to remove the ProCab when I did my first testing since it had the address 3 too.  Now I have changed it to 6 and it all seems to work together and they all recognise each other.  When I get deeper into the JMRI thing I might yet find I got that wrong!

PowerCab and SB5 with other additions.pdf

For the Power Cab NCE produce the SB5 5 amp smart booster which basically converts it to a pro system. 

Essentially the booster is the command station and power cab becomes a controller. 

<snip>

 

Only downside is the SB5 doesn't have a programming track output so you would need to keep you original power cab panel and have it connected to a programming track.  

Not quite correct in that the chip in the SB5 is actually the same controller chip as in the PowerCab - so you don't get much more than you had - for example no more macros (256 on the Pro) AND you must re-input your macros into the SB5 since the ones you may have made in the PowerCab are no longer accessible. You are told to use the PowerCab manual as a reference.  Nonetheless it all works fine if you understand these little bits which are not always obvious.  Your PowerCab remains as CAB2 so there is no problem in using it to control a separate programming track.  Your PowerCab PCP will continue to work OK too - just remove the track connections and the wall wart power feed.  I ended up replacing my PCP with a UTP with 4 cab bus connectors as I needed the extra connector.  My PCP is now neatly built into a programming/test track away from the layout and my PowerCab just plugs between them.