imt

4 minutes ago, AndyB said:

My only slight reservation is that in my earlier sketch I'd envisaged the station as a point where a freight train hauled by a mainline loco might be swapped for a shunter taking the freight onwards.

I would think that still a possibility.  I am not sure whether the double line would be best over or under the viaduct.  It could be a double main line in and a single line "branch" out (or branches even - not necessarily more than one line just several theoretical destinations) 

The way the fiddle yard is drawn at the moment it might be best if the single line leaves the station from the right since there are short extra sidings for maybe a branch train or two.  Or maybe Phil could think of both ways and see what the result looked like.

There could be bay platforms both for the branch(es) and terminating main line sets?

11 minutes ago, AndyB said:

I think what you have so far would suit a relatively simple design - single platform, possibly with a bay, a run round loop and a siding or two? 

So maybe some of the above is a bit over the top? 

Try looking at JMRI written in Java.  It's free and has an integration with Python/Jython which allows you to use their scheduler/interface to program as much as you want.  You MAY find that the amount of "programming" necessary using their own Logix approach will be all you need.  I have some Python but mainly my full interlocking uses their Logix.  Happy to bore you as much as you want on the subject!

I guess temporarily out of stock means they aren't available?

If you CAN get a UK/European supplier well and good.  I never could, always just out of stock.  Caboose Industries do sell to the UK via the web.  You can use PayPal (don't have to have an account) and postage is somewhat short of $11 IIRC.  Need to be buying packs of 5 to make that worth while I guess.  My last lot cost $25 inc. delivery - cannot remember the rate but it must be about £17/£18 for 5.  I decided it was worth it.

4 hours ago, trapoint said:

Where can I buy them in the UK ?

AFAIK you cannot.  I had to order mine direct from the USA.

6 minutes ago, keefer said:

Cant help with the named goods trains, sorry

Well, thanks very much for the info. you could provide.

A

11 hours ago, keefer said:

The line from Stanley as far as Forfar North Jn. became a freight only branch (until 5/6/1982)

Effectively you are saying there was no through route Stanley/Aberdeen after end 1967?

Do you have any knowledge of the named freight trains and where and when they ran?

I am interested in Inverness and stations northwards, and my model railway is of (the non-existent) Ullapool Branch.  I have tried to make a realistic timetable and to weave extra trains in to the real timetable in as realistic a manner as possible.

I have a full BR(S) Passenger WTT for the whole of Scotland May 1968-69.  I couldn't afford the accompanying Freight WTT (the bloke wanted £100) but I have Freight Section C covering most of what I want for May to October 1970.  It doesn't match up but it was good enough - until now!

Two days ago a friend gave me a Section C for 7 Nov. 1966 to 5 March 1967.  The difference is significant and very interesting.  Amongst other things it covers part of the 1968 Section E - the Stanley/Aberdeen main line - and in doing so revealed "The Heilan' Piper" named freight train. - the others I have seen in passing are "The Fifer" and "The Kitty" and there may be more.

I know the Stanley to Aberdeen route was closed to passengers in the late 50's (my family banged on about it!) but that it remained open for freight - into the 80's?  

Can anybody indicate when the main freight traffic for Inverness changed from via Aberdeen to up through Dalwhinnie.

Can anybody give me some history (or references to follow up) of "The Heilan' Piper" and the other named trains - where and when they ran until.  As part of that I would be grateful for information on the return trip Inverness/Aberdeen/Perth etc. because I cannot identify it in my timetable?

Thank you for reading this and any hints you can give.

CDU is an interesting point (pun not intended).  The Train-Tech PC2 has that built in so I cannot comment how things might go without it.  The PC2 is only any use if you are going DCC, but there are many CDUs on the market for DC systems.  The presence of the CDU made no difference to the geometry of getting a straight thrust with the tiebar.  That was still trial and error and took varing amounts of time.  My only caveat was that my points were already fixed down.  On one I needed to put a piece of 2 thou Plasticard under the end of the tiebar to make sure the "bobble" on the end din't slip under the drive bar of the point motor.  As I say - all works fine when set up.

I don't have MAJOR problems either - and I don't think there is a "bad batch" or anything like it.  These are small mechanical things which have a particular movement.  If you look at them with the power plug end down, the throw at the top when operated manually is slightly up and left (the cam moves up and right).  I cannot see inside and don't intend to take one to pieces but I guess there are cranks in there to change movement of the (two?) in-line solenoid(s) from up/down to left/right.  Anyway - the throw ends up left and slightly up.  There is quite a bit of play, which fools you into thinking it should just go together with a point and work.  However, unless the motor and the tie bar are aligned so that this results in an effectively straight motion the movement can jam or not travel the full width. Believe me it happens with Peco Setrack points.

I use Train-Tech PC2s (4 point DCC controller) to drive them from my DCC accessory bus - there isn't a power problem.

I was not suggesting that they don't work, or that they are faulty - just agreeing that, for me anyway (and with the OP), they are tricky to get to optimal fitting.  Thereafter they are faultless - 18 months reliable running and no sign of problems.

I have a set of these for my fiddle yard.  MIne work beautifully NOW - but were pigs to get aligned on the points.  The point bars worked fine the point motors worked fine - but together they wouldn't. I found that the point motor throw was NOT straight - it was (IIRC) up and across (or maybe the other way! ) and the tie bars didn't run straight when pushed/pulled either.  Sometimes they were fighting each other.  EVENTUALLY I managed to get them fixed (my wife closed all doors between her studio and my railway room it got so loud!).  Since then they have been 100% reliable.

Good luck .........! And don't kick the pets, the kids or er indoors!

35 minutes ago, Ruston said:

This something that I don't properly understand for the working of more than one train going in a particular direction. I understand the basics of how it works with tokens and their machines, and how it's all interconnected electrically but how does this work with a staff and ticket?

 

AS simple answer (which may be enough for you) can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_(railway_signalling)

1 hour ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

Thank you for the suggestions.  I've not come across a piano line before, so I'm not sure I understand the concept?  I will have a read of that thread, hopefully it will shed some light....

It's not "a piano line" it's THE Piano Line - invented by the Revd. gentleman to fit on the top of his upright piano.  Hence it's about getting the max out of the min space.  An early minimum space layout for both passenger (short coaches and tank loco) and goods.  Would work for "Bubble Cars" (121s) and smaller diesels too.  Not much space for a 40 or 47! 

Lovely signals - wish mine looked as good.

<start of winge>

I note you have left the signal with a feather on your goods line.  Please move it - you have an ideal place as a home signal by your first crossover.  Where it is means you will have to operate it every time you want to do a shunt past it.  Trains cannot pass red signals.  Not very realistic and a complete pain after a while - unless you ain't going to operate to your signals, in which case why buy them?  Replace it with one of Train Techs beautiful yellow/white shunt signals.  You only clear it to white when a train is leaving the yard, otherwise shunt all you like.

<end of winge>

Love your station.  It all looks so good.

Have a very Happy Christmas.

 

PPS.  The Train-tech feather signals are "limited" as regards your 4J1 suggestion and looking at the way the signal LEDs are made would be frankly impossible.  Cheap and cheerful I'm afraid is the order of the day but please see my earlier remarks.  Thanks yet again for the time you have spent on this matter.

I use TrainTech exclusively on my layout and think they are good too.  There is a lot to be said for simplicity.  So replace the "Christmas Tree" of a Home signal I suggested with a single right feather from TT and you have it.  I really would advise against too many signals, apart from costs they don't look "right" if scattered everywhere. They really do need to contribute to "safety" and be in necessary places.

I know that TrainTech GPLS kits work well too.  All mine are pre-made DCC ones since I have full DCC control, but a friend of mine uses the kits and even "kit bashes" them further (despite the burnt and cut fingers!).

Brian,

Not wishing to interfere, I have had a quick look at what I think is the last Deneside layout plan and tried to do a MINIMAL signal plan.  There can be endless arguments about this, and Ray is quite right to point out there are various time considerations about what is "right".  I suggest you apply rule 1 and do what seems and looks right to you.  You have done extremely well doing that so far!!!

As far as I can see you have 4 passenger platforms, a goods arrival/departure line and a loco yard that need integrating into any plan.  The main lines labelled M1 and M2 will be dual direction is some cases.  I am not sure what circumstances would dictate when.  There are 2 significant crossovers I have labelled A and B.  Incoming trains for platforms 3 and 4 have to go over this facing crossover.  The Home signal can protect that and set routes.  I have shown 4 JI on the mast the one at 10 o'clock (position1) is for platform 1, Platform 2 doesn't need one (straight ahead) P3 id JI 4 (2 o'clock), P4 JI 5 and the yard (goods arrival) is 6 (4 o'clock).  You can get this made up by CRS if you want to - or good luck doing it yourself!

None of the platform starters need anything extra since everything either has access to M2 directly (P3 and P4) or will use crossover B to get to it.

The loco shed needs a signal protecting the main line - but that could be a ground signal - it looks like a P on it's side on my diagram.  I am unsure where we go from there.  How do you send locos to P3/P4? You may either put them across crossover B or send them round to crossover A.  If at B you might think of a ground signal for that movement, but you would also have to clear that signal every time a train leaves P1/P2 else the driver would have a heart attack.

The goods departure needs a signal too - but it could be a ground signal with a yellow light which means it is passable into the head shunt all the time, and will clear to white for a departure to the main line.

Finally the colliery needs a simple signal to protect the main line.

There you are 6 main signals, and only one of them complicated, and 2 or 3 ground signals.  You could just ignore the complications on the Home signal and just have a single feather meaning go to line M2.  Most signalling schemes relied on the drivers knowing what was expected of them, and signals (including model ones) are expensive to buy and maintain.

Edit: there was supposed to be a photo of a diagram here

Brian,

Love you buildings and scenic work!

I am not a signalling professional, but that looks very over signalled.  I was going to say something about your Home signal with a feather.  It would be most unlikely for a signal in that position to be only 2 aspect.  The next signal in line will no doubt be the section signal into the next block - way round the corner and off your model - which may easily show RED.  Hence that signal should have a yellow aspect (be a three aspect signal).  I am also not sure what the feather is for?  I didn't say anything then but thought I should now.

Now you may want to spend all that money on signals - and it's your layout - but there is no need for them.  Some could be removed, others could be replaced by ground signals if you like.  For example the one on the lower yards area could be a yellow ground signal, with the points always held to the left into the head shunt for safety.  To leave onto the main line it would be cleared to white.

The one up from the colliery is fine.  Theoretically it could be a red/yellow signal since it would only show caution into the yard (you would hardly need a green light there!).

The one on the extreme left with CJML beside it is the key Home signal.  In the old days it would have been a magnificent multi doll bracket.  These days it would be a red/yellow with a Route Indicator board - showing 1,2,3,4 and Y(ard) probably. They don't come off the shelf ans buying one would cost a small fortune (look at Absolute Aspects web site!).  You could have a JI there, but they are usually reserved for lines where trains are travelling at speed - not here where they will be going slow.  I (like you) cheat because I do not want to pay too much. 

The signal at CJ is far too close to the platform starter - why would you tell a train to go and stop it 100 yards later?  You could (should) really remove everything between CJMl and the platform starters.  The key decisions for routing and release are made at those important points.  If you want something (say) to control light engines reversing onto stock in platforms you could have some ground signals near the crossovers.  I am not sure (don't remember) what is beyond the station throat - don't remember a loco yard.  I am not sure why you have the main line beyond the crossover at the end of your platforms marked a 2 way - is there a need for it?

I suggest you sit and think what moves where as main line and shunting moves and try to cut back the signals to only those essential.  Too many signals are as bad as none since you spend your life changing things that have no real role.

Good luck anyway and have a Happy Christmas.

Iain

Hi, and welcome to the hobby.

Let Google be your friend - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facing_and_trailing. Remember we drive on the left - including on the railway, and signals are usually on the left of the line.

These pages might help a bit - http://www.railway-technical.com/

AND never be afraid of asking questions - the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask.  Everybody is friendly here and will help as much as they can.

Finally, I would agree that 18" (in real money) is a bit narrow for "N" try to trade width for length - but don't go too wide because of reach problems unless you can get all the way round your model. 

Type "signalling maidenhead" (without the quotes) into Google and look for an SRS PDF freely downloadable which is Maidenhead 1963 upgrade.

There are also some diagrams here https://www.mmpa.org.uk/gallery/gallery23/index.html

Has anybody tried the TrainTech GPLS? I use these http://www.train-tech.com/index.php/signalling/dcc-signals/77-gs1-ground-position-shunt-signal-wr which work well from standard DCC addressing.  Pricey (£35) but worth looking at and about the same size as the CRS ones (£17) - but the TT ones come with a built in DCC controller.

Comments:

1) you will need access all round when running so you can get to that fiddle yard.

2) when you say "go away" do you mean remove all the stock, or is there some way you intend to keep the fiddle yard flat and fold the rest of the layout over it?  Lots of stock to put n boxes?  Lots of stock to put out every time you want to use it? 30 mins to set up 30 mins to strike - how long to play operate your layout?

3) aren't those fiddle yard line quite close together?  Where do your fingers go when setting up/taking down?  Maybe widen out a bit........

Are they not drive-through?  I assumed from the plan view that you can enter at the left hand end, and come out again at the right?

 

 

Absolutely true - but lots of layouts with the configuration we are discussing (through main station with fiddle yard) want the train to go back from the Fiddle Yard in the direction it came in.  This means the engine needs to run round. OhOh's ideas are some of the suite of possibilities to fix this, but you (the operator) have to intervene - unless you have a reversing loop built in to your layout.        

I wonder, would something like a vertical FY help?

Wonderful things, and a wow to watch in action BUT there is a slight problem.  You cannot reverse trains very easily (unless they are MUs of some sort with driving at both ends) - there are ways to do it but they are cumbersome.  If you have £3200 spare just have 2?

The best solution I have seen is one of those and a reversing loop.

There's a Paddington on youTube as well - may be the same thing Joseph is talking about.

I should think Paddington could be made to fit, its only 8 platform faces and a narrow throat  You could have a station 9' long before the curve.  The problem is the need then for building in a down slope to the rest of the layout and fiddle yard.  Getting 4" rise between surfaces at a minimum of 1 in 50 you are looking at a 16-17' run probably 18' given some transition.  Not impossible since it's less than two sides' length.you then either have to run the fiddle yard under the down slope or have those lines behind the yard - you could risk it being a bit difficult to get at because a) derailments unlikely(?) b) you don't need to take stuff off the track or put it on there.

If you want to see roundy-roundy in countryside that idea is no good, but there are other things to do.

There are a thousand ways to choke this cat if you have no cream left!

Please note I didn't say 3' radius was not good enough.  What I was saying was that was what you needed and 3' + 6' + 3' is your maximum so 1) you cannot have 3' curves as they will hit the walls, but with some compromise on fiddle yard road length and maybe 34" curves it would work.  2) as you come down from 34" you really should keep to the maximum curvature possible - the larger the better it looks.  3) 24" and less curves are likely to cause running problems - so you need to ensure that your balance between number and length of fiddle yard roads and the curvature that you need results in a useful and enjoyable (for you) result.  4) points on curves are a source of running problems, they need to be well laid in and not of the Settrack type, if you want 5 coach trains (which should be possible) you are likely to be putting curved points in.  Getting that right needs a CAD package (best) or a lot of work with pencil and paper or using templates real size. 5) your lovely design (which we agree won't fit) has some sweeping curves - great they look good, BUT you cannot just wallop from one of those into a tight curve to get you into the fiddle yard - it'll need some transition.  Those on the current plan seem to have that - but when you make your plan don't forget the requirement. 

I too am far more interested in the operations side of the model - timetables, WTTs, traffic realism etc.  But I do need a track which when I run the trains means they do what is required - so you need good track planning and laying PLUS a plan of how you will use the fiddle yard to meet the traffic needs.

Good luck.