Peter A Hall

The recently launched website celebrating the Northern Counties Transport Society northerncountiestransportsociety has scans of some of the Where the ! * ! * ! are they publications in its Archives section. One, three, four and five currently.

Thanks for your delving SED Freightman. Interesting to see that the outbound trains ran via Nunhead rather than Herne Hill. Would that have been the case in other years? I had wondered if the Folkestone West trains actually did a Kent circle setting down / picking up at other resorts. Seemingly not, however the stop at Ashford is interesting. As there was no Eastbourne train at the time, could the Ashford stop have been to allow transfer to Rye, Hastings and Eastbourne by connecting trains or by motor coach?

Thanks acg5324. Confirms the route was MML until 1983 and WCML for the final two Summers of 1984/1985. Locomotive changes I'm fairly confident took place at Brent and Mitre Bridge respectively. This allowed the same Class 33 to be used for both trains on the Southern. The sightings provided by eastwestdivide are very useful all be they of the Margate train, but very much reflect the formation of the Eastbourne train at the time. Such sightings have rarely been published as have photographs of the trains on the Southern 33055 on Thu 11 Sep 1980 was almost certainly on the Fratton - Folkestone East ecs. This was the positioning move for the stock off the previous days Newcastle - Portsmouth Harbour which would then work the Folkestone - West - Newcastle on the Saturday. The norm was that the set arriving in Newcastle would then form the next SAGA departure from there and this explains why it was the same stock seen two days earlier at Rochester. The BG was solely for luggage and frequently changed as already mentioned. The ER WTT shows 1O43 running TO 2 Sep - 16 Sep and 1E12 9 Sep - 23 Sep in late Summer 1980 which probably explains why it wasn't seen on 30 Sep. With regard to this train 1n 1973/74/75 the ER WTT shows the outward running to Folkestone (West) and return starting at Margate. In those years I'm presuming it was routed clockwise around the Kent Coast in both directions with passengers for both resorts and perhaps others between.

The 1975 ER CWN gives the formation of the Eastbourne/Rye train as 4TSO,RU,BSO,4TSO,BG. My recollection of the Newcastle SAGA's in that era is that the BG was for luggage and it wasn't always a BR design example. I vividly recall seeing one of the few remaining LNER design examples on one of the trains and might even be able to locate the number. LMSR design examples probably put in appearances as well. If my recollections aren't muddled I'm sure the RU was occasionally a Gresley or Thompson RB, certainly the Gresley bogied RU's were regulars.

Just been alerted to this topic from wnxx forum https://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29700 where the topic is similarly being discussed. The Newcastle to Eastbourne re-commenced in 1981 and ran on early / late season Summer Saturdays until 1985. Previous to that the Saturday train had run to/from Folkestone from 1976 to 1980. Prior to that it had run to/from Eastbourne in 1974/1975. The set of coaches went ecs to Margate after arriving from Newcastle and were used to form the Tuesday return SAGA from there to Newcastle. When that ceased they went ecs to Fratton to form the Wednesday return SAGA from Portsmouth Harbour. The set of coaches for the return train from Eastbourne arrived ecs from Fratton having previously formed the Wednesday Newcastle - Portsmouth Harbour SAGA. I'm not sure of the precise routing on the Southern, however it does appear to have been via Ashford, Rye and Hastings. A peculiarity was that in 1975 the inward train ran to Rye, reversing at Eastbourne, so presumably was routed via Haywards Heath. Routing off the Southern was via the Midland Main Line and Derby until 1982 with a locomotive change at Brent, not sure about 1983, but for the final two years at least it ran via the WCML and Birmingham with a locomotive change at Mitre Bridge.

I went to 'Transpo '73', being in my early teens. The exhibition was held during May 1973. Although I attended I didn't record what was on display but did take a few pictures. I've found little information regarding actual exhibits present as opposed to those proposed. It seems it was intended to display a brand new Class 87 and an ex works Class 24/25. However it seems a Class 81 was substituted for the Class 87 and the Class 24/25 was pinched part way through to work trains. Does anyone know the numbers of the locomotives involved? I would also be interested to know which other locomotives, carriages and buses were on display.

I think this is quite possible. p.156 5/59 Railway Observer says under Sheffield Victoria "D5903 was noted passing Sheffield in a southerly direction on 7th April but it returned again on the 9th" This is prior to 17th April 1959 when it was first allocated to Hornsey. This does suggest D59xx were perhaps delivered via Woodhead.

Is anything known about the D59xx picture. Location, date, locomotive, caption, where published etc?

The fuelling point at the former electric depot was, I believe, at the side of the shed behind the Class 37 in the previous posters photograph. What I believe to be the fuel tank can be seen. I doubt if this facility existed when the shed first opened in 1951 but the tank is visible in a c1962 picture when the shed was still seemingly wired. Possible dates for its installation could be 1953 when diesel shunting locomotives were first used in the yard and 1961 when mainline diesel locomotives first saw use in the area.

He does indeed! Thanks for the recommendation.

In 1905 Metropolitan Railway electric services started between Uxbridge and Baker Street. My understanding from various sources is that 70 individual vehicles were built for these services. These were formed as six-car trains but could be split into shorter three car formations if required. The 70 vehicles consisted of various types, how many types existed, the number of each, numerical identities and basic layout details such as seating and length is my starting point. I have some notes compiled in the 1990's from sources then consulted but these are incomplete. Subsequently other texts have appeared about the Metropolitan Railway and it may be that one of those contains more comprehensive detailed information about these vehicles. I have noted that in 2001 Silver Swan published the book Metropolitan Railway Rolling Stock authored by James Snowdon and did wonder if this included the information I was after. I have seen this book mentioned in other topics which suggests it may contain such detail and if so would aim to acquire a copy. It seems the original intention was to run seven car trains but this proved impractical so ten cars were presumably surplus and subsequently formed in other trains. Identifying which and subsequent histories of the others is also something I am trying to be clearer about. One of the original vehicles does survive, currently at the London Transport Depot Museum at Acton having seen military service at Shoeburyness. References differ though to its original configuration and it may be numbers attributed to it may be assumptions,

Until recently I had never appreciated that two post steam era BR depots had existed at Wath-upon-Dearne. Being a 70's spotter I was familiar with the two road depot that started out as an electric depot in 1951 but by the 1970's had been de-wired and was used for diesel maintenance. From preliminary research, which has included the recently published 'On Shed part 4' I have concluded the three road diesel maintenance depot in the centre of the yard probably came into use in October 1963. At about the same time the electric depot ceased to service and maintain electric locomotives and became a diesel servicing shed. Main line locomotives were allocated to 41C from 10/63 - 5/68 with only Class 08's subsequently. From this I am deducing, possibly wrongly, that the Diesel Maintenance Shed closed in 5/68 and the servicing (former electric shed) became a servicing and maintenance depot. Need to delve further but does anyone know of any articles or other reliable references on the topic?

If mine and others recollections are not too distorted there was also a Traveller's Fare Buffet/Bar on the Victoria station concourse at a similar time. It being recalled that it actually dispensed draught 'Boddies' and was thus a favourite watering hole for enthusiasts. Those who participated in shed bashing trips by coach n the 1960's and 1970's recall meeting and supping there before departure, nominating a younger spotter to come and fetch them when the coach arrived. Those who bashed recall getting progressively more drunk as locomotives not to there liking brought in the empties from Red Bank or descended Mile Platting bank. Also, if I'm not mistaken it incorporated the distinctive domed roof now restored. Presumably this Buffet/Bar also had a name buy if it did no one who recalls drinking there can remember what it was. Anyone remember?

The January 2019 edition of 'Today's Railways UK', published tomorrow, has a four page feature about the repatriation of D2289 earlier this year.

The current edition of STEAM RAILWAY reveals that the frames of 42859 at least are now located at the East Lancashire Railway and have been for a number of weeks. How much else from the locomotive still survives and whether any other major components are also located at the East Lancs is not stated. Confirmation that the boiler was scrapped is mentioned. The report states that the frames were moved from Binbrook to Tuxford in 2013 which leads one to conclude that is where they have been until the recent relocation. Enquiries earlier this year prior to finalisation of the eighteenth edition of 'Preserved Locomotives of British Railways' (Platform 5 Publishing) indicated that it was highly unlikely the frames were then at the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway or ever had been,

A few comments on the latest post from Eddie B. Subsequently at least two of the locomotives, D9548 and D9549, saw further use with Cubiertos y M.Z.O.V (abbreviated to CMZ) carrying appropriate branding. This reference suggests that all three were actually owned by CMZ when at Chamartin Yard. This being the case, further use by CMZ suggests that Aikin Española S .A. were not able to find a buyer for at least two of the locomotives. Perhaps the reason for no subsequent sighting of D9515 and removal of buffer beam light clusters was that it did find a buyer possibly not in Spain. We have now been given permission to use several more pictures of the locomotives when in Spain on https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesels/content.htm?id=diesels/export14 which has had an update today.

In a PM Eddie B has asked if I could identify which was which in the Chamartin Yard picture. The answer to which we are 99.9% certain of is D9515 left and D9549 right. However, when I checked against other pictures on file discovered something rather fascinating and that is of great significance, One way of identifying which Spaniard is which is by the headlights. In the Eddie B Chamartin picture D9549 (right) has single small headlamps mounted on the bonnets. In all other pictures of D9549 at Chamartin it is fitted with double round headlamps including a picture taken on 29th January 1988, just two months before that taken by Eddie. So it looks like that in early 1988 the type of bonnet mounted headlamp changed. By 2003 the type of headlamp had again been changed to double again but mounted in a single unit. Now to add to the confusion we need to throw this picture into the mix .https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidh73/15429495066/in/photolist-eh26wG-egUQKk-pvsck1 Although originally looking to have a headlight fitted as to D9515 in Eddie's Chamartin picture the mounting is different. Thus, if this is indeed D9549 this would have been at least the third of fourth headlamp arrangements it had whilst in Spain, Edit - 08/11/18. We are now as certain as we can be that this is D9549. As more pictures emerge the more of an identikit for each locomotive can be built up.

EddieB - thanks for your PM. The two locomotives in the April 1988 picture are almost certainly D9515 and D9549. The reasoning for this certainty is that the other locomotive, D9548, that was with them had a distinctive flat cab profile and flat top to its exhaust as visible in this picture of it taken in 1989 https://www.flickr.com/photos/47704640@N02/8712695233/in/album-72157633399823091/ This modification goes back to its Corby days when presumably it had some repairs after an accident. Edit 08/11/18 - Has been established that the cab modification was made in order that it could fit under a bridge when located at Harlaxton. Confident that the locomotive at Zaragoza is D9549 by which time it carried the number P601-0-3911-003 CMZ. Another picture of this locomotive taken from the other side can be found here https://www.flickr.com/photos/47704640@N02/8713915632/ Other pictures and observations of this locomotive between April 1988 and 2003 would certainly be appreciated.

It is well known that three Class 14's, D9515, D9548 and D9549 were exported to Spain in 1982 and then spent several years in storage at Chamartin Yard, Madrid. What then became of them though is far from clear and although we have attempted to record what is known at https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesel ... s/export14 this almost certainly contains some errors and is far from complete. The three locomotives were presumably seen and photographed on several occasions after leaving Charmartin Yard but how were they identified by those who saw them? Study of published photographs and those found on the web suggests some of the identifications cannot be correct because of detail differences unique to certain locomotives, even allowing for later modifications. These include cab profiles, exhaust stacks, headlights and associated mountings and presence of lifting brackets. Edit 08/11/18 - We are though now confident we have correctly identified the locomotives in pictures we have seen. It might though be possible that someone reading this has an unpublished photograph or an observation of one or more of the locomotives. If so we would encourage them to post or make contact. If one of the locomotives was observed and not photographed but details of numbers or other identities carried was made, that information would be of great use. From the known photographs it does appear that one of the locomotives must have had a significant cab profile change after leaving Charmatin yard. Also, the possibility of a fourth locomotive having been in Spain is not as far fetched as it might appear. Although D9534 that was exported to Belgium in 1975 is recorded in various publications as moving to Italy after overhaul nothing to substantiate this has yet emerged - no pictures or observations despite quoted locations having been visited by enthusiasts when it was supposedly there. Could D9534 actually have seen use in Spain rather than Italy? Knowing the eye for detail modellers have it might be that there research has come up with something others have overlooked.

In the two and a half years or so since this Topic has been on going I have actually made a lot of progress with this project. This though would not have been possible without the help of others, some of whom have posted in this topic. This help has been very much appreciated. Dave Felton who founded BWRE has actually written quite a comprehensive history of that Society including details of the amalgamation that created the NCTS in 1970. I myself have now been able to compile similar for the NCTS although a few grey areas still exist where clarifications and additional information is still sought. Lists exist of trips run by both BWRE and NCTS and for the later some lists of locations visited and locomotives seen now exist electronically but we would like to have a few more. The majority of BWRE and NCTS magazines have been scanned but a few editions have so far eluded us. Similarly the majority of booklets produced from 1972 onwards have been scanned but again not all have been traced. Earlier publications under the Viva Transport Publications and BWRE names are proving much harder to locate. If you were a NCTS member and have not already made contact, please do so as you just might have recollections or something squirrelled away that would help enhance what has already been achieved.

Thanks Paul for the references to D2294 confirming it served in BR Blue. The blue applied at Queenborough looks to be of a different shade. Quick update regarding D2289 which it is eventually intended to restore in its final BR guise carrying BR Blue. Around 70 people visited Rowsley for D2289's debut appearance after returning from Italy. No one visiting mentioned that it wasn't a cop! Its next public appearance is planned for the Heritage Shunters Trust 'Shunter Bashers Bal' to be held next weekend (1/2 September) at Rowsley https://heritageshuntertrust.wixsite.com/hst1/news Analysis and translation of documents acquired with D2289 now suggest it spent its entire career at Acciaierie di Lonato, Lonato (Brescia) and was never at Feralpi. Which Class 04 was at Feralpi thus remains a mystery.. What is known about D2289 along with Italian observations can be found at https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesels/loco.htm?id=diesels/D2289 in order to assist those involved with its repatriation compile as fuller history of the locomotive as possible we are now appealing for any one who saw it during its BR career to add those sightings as well, Also if any one can supply pictures of D2289 in BR days those would be welcomed.

It would appear D2294 was painted in non BR blue at Queenborough after it arrived their. Had presumed that it was previously green but perhaps not.

Does anyone know of any others or is it that Paul has been able to obtain a picture of everyone that was blue?

The June 2018 Railway Magazine (p.82) contains a report on the repatriation of D2289. Unfortunately it perpetuates the myth of "brassplater" Peter Wood of Eckington, near Chesterfield having an involvement with its export, quoted in the report as P Wood (Shipbreakers) Queenborough. The company it passed through at Queenborough was actually Shipbreaking (Queenborough) Ltd although it is possible that they did not acquire it direct from BR but through RE Trem of Finningley nr Doncaster. Further details can be found towards the end of http://www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co ... ations.pdf Between withdrawal and export (September 1971 and cApril 1972) D2289 was moved from Eastleigh to Queenborough, the date of this movement has though never been established and any observations of it during the period would be extremely useful. As mentioned in Railway Magazine evidence to hand does suggest that D2289 was first located at Feralpi before moving to Acciaierie di Lonato. It is worth mentioning that the earliest traced reference to Ex BR locomotives at this locations appeared in IRS Bulletin 206 (OCtober 1976) and says Feralpi at Lonato has ex BR D2294 and another Drewry 0-6-0D 3 PHOENIX, also a Badoni diesel. Acciaierie di Lonato, Lonato (Brescia) has FH 3944 (ex Settle Speakman, Queenborough) and 0-6-0D ex BR D2295. It should be noted that D2294 is not thought to have ever left Queenborough and D2295 was photographed in 1974 https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesel ... sels/D2295carrying branding for a company in Southern Italy. Thus, much to be unravelled regarding the Italian history of D2289. Further pictures and information regarding the arrival of D2289 at Rowsley can be found at http://heritageshuntertrust.wixsite.com/hst1/news

At least two blue Class 04 were exported to Italy, these being D2289 and D2295. The one you specifically asked about, D2289, can now be found at the Heritage Shunters Trust, Rowsley although not currently on display. It arrived from Italy on the 13th June. For further details see https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesels/content.htm?id=diesels/italy.