LNER4479

Thanks Dr G-F I've never known a time when I didn't like making models so I guess I must have acquired some skills over the years. Ours is one of the few hobbies I think where you get better as you get older... I have loads of print photographs taken over the years so will scan those in - but I can probably re-take most of them with my current D-SLR. One way or another, I'll get them posted in due course. One interesting snippet for you seeing as how you like track so much. The alignment of the running lines you can see in the centre of the opening photograph was set by a computer! So I can only take partial credit for the lovely reverse sweep of them. I was doing some research into track alignment and used the programme I was working on one lunchtime to run the measurements from Gowhole through

Well it was the Autumn Gala (2011), with Tornado and Caley 0-6-0! Pity about the motive power on the teak set

Thanks Barry, Had a look at your workbench; nice work. The ink and powders approach is certainly interesting. Looks like EM Carlisle has a powerful team behind it; I (and I'm sure plenty of others) look forward to seeing it get more complete as time goes on. Weathering hasn't been a priority on Grantham yet (I think I better concentrate on getting the basic layout complete first!). However, if you look at my other thread just started today (link below) then you should be able to detect that I am not averse to weathering(!) There is one vehicle however that I have done some weathering on as I wanted to enter it into a competition: I was a bit stuck though when I came to the roof as you don't tend to find too manyprototype pictures taken from a sufficiently high up vantage point to show this sort of detail. However, I happened to visit the SVR during this time and took the following picture (from the new footbridge at Highley): Just goes to show that, even in the rare-ified preservation world, white-painted roofs don't stay white for very long! As well as the shade of grey (obviously accumulated soot), I was struck by how the dirt had particularly gathered round the roof ventilators, so this gave me the inspiration I needed. This was the result: It can't have been too bad as I won a prize! And doesn't it show how the other roof needs something doing to it? They can't all be 'just out of shops'! Finally, can't resist finishing this post with the following picture: What an absolutely fantastic piece of coach restoration this is. And a genuine GNR survivor. I love the semi-compartment half way along marking the division between the two classes. Plenty of coaches like this during my era, mixing it with the more 'modern' Gresley teaks so somehow need to find a way of working one or two kit builds of these into the overall scheme of things!

At the risk of diverting attention from my current project(!), I thought I might post some details of what I got up to in the pre-RMWeb age. I guess we all have to start from somewhere… This then is the description of a OO-gauge loft layout that has now run its course and is to be gradually dismantled over the coming months and years. Those of you that follow my Grantham thread (link below) may recognise the style but be possibly surprised by the era/region. Gowhole sidings was started in 1988 at a time when I led a nomadic existence but had at my disposal a loft space at my Mum’s house. Reasoning that she was unlikely to move house in a long time I embarked on building my layout there, based on a weekly visit and occasional work weekends (Mums like you to visit regularly!). Given that, 24 years later, the layout is still in existence (just) in the same location, I guess that has turned out to be sound reasoning! It was always intended as a ‘practice’ layout, to try out various ideas and concepts. In some cases I guess it grew beyond this into a layout in its own right but in other areas it is still quite crude. Firstly the prototype (I don't do 'might have beens'). The real Gowhole sidings lay athwart the former Midland Railway’s mainline out of Manchester. Set as it was amongst the picturesque Peak District foothills, it was at the heart of a busy stretch of a four track railway between New Mills South Junction (where the routes out of Manchester met) and Chinley North Junction (when Sheffield and Derby routes diverged). In Midland days it was apparently the operational control centre for the area(!) The locale has been a popular source of inspiration for modellers over the years, with Chinley station itself being the more obvious location to depict. Being Manchester born, it is an area that I am very familiar with and indeed I am old enough (just) to remember being taken to see the last vestiges of steam in the February snows of 1968 at Gowhole. My preference therefore was to be a bit ‘different’ and so the busy freight yard at Gowhole was chosen as the basis for the layout. The diagrammatic track plan shows what I fitted into the space available, that being 20’ x 14’ at its extremities (the roof eaves sloped down on all four sides). There was also an additional length of roof (part of an extension to the original house) in which there was (just) room for an extended ‘U’. As can be seen, there was a basic double-track circuit round the loft, which represented the ‘slow’ lines (set at the correct ruling gradient of 1-in-90 past the sidings) and a second double-track circuit on the outside and into the ‘U’ to represent the ‘fast’ lines. The latter was never completed (the section shown dotted was never in fact constructed) but at least there genuinely were four tracks running through and past Gowhole, made possible by double junctions at New Mills South and Bugsworth (beyond Gowhole). Those familiar with my approach to Peco trackwork on Grantham will perhaps recognise the style of adaptation to replicate prototypical track formations; all lessons learnt have been carried forward into the current project. The model depicts the area in the 1950’s LMR era (although I didn’t like to be too particular, resulting in LMS-liveried 0-6-0’s rubbing shoulders with the Midland Pullman). Much of the operation of the layout was based around goods traffic arriving at Gowhole and being ‘sorted’ and then departing for their onwards destinations. I was fortunate that several books covering the line were published giving detailed operational information, including full working timetables. This showed that goods traffic outnumbered passenger workings by as much as five to one at certain times of the day(!) Much of this was the inevitable coal traffic, Gowhole acting as a distribution point for block loads coming across the pennines from the South Yorkshire and North Nottinghamshire coalfields (and corresponding collection of empties returning back). I think I had approx 80 coal wagons (half wooden bodied, half steel) at the last count. A complete loco diagramming exercise was undertaken and all locos running on the layout had a defined ‘purpose’ and specific plan of where they went next upon arrival at any location. Passengers services were fewer by comparison, although the most recent aspect of the model involved the intended lower level fiddle yard morphing into a condensed representation of Manchester Central station. This I have decided will survive to become the ‘rest of the world’ at my proposed Carlisle layout. As you can see, there was a fairly consistent approach to weathering and also carrying of correct lampcodes (lamps could be removed and re-positioned if required). In other respects though there was much finishing off work required, and only a spasmodic approach to signalling! The layout has admirably served its purpose, allowed me to hone and define my railway modelling standard – and above all was great fun to operate. There were some interesting guests over the years, including a former Gowhole head shunter and a Heaton Mersey shed driver, who enjoyed driving ‘his’ 8F 48503 for one more time! Hope this will be of interest. I took many pictures over the years and intend to have one final comprehensive photography session for posterity before the tracklifting gang move in in earnest so I should be able to post whatever folks might be interested in seeing a little more of. 'Robert'

Hi Barry, Wow - that IS scary! I love the way a casual request for information reveals a humungous 30m x 6m layout There certainly seems to be no stopping people going for 'ultimate' representations of real locations these days. Thanks for pointing out. My approach to Carlisle will be quite different so that it could never be called a 'clone'!

Thanks Fen, Yes, I do have a copy of LNER Album Vol 3. I don't have it to hand but will check the pages you mention at the weekend. Is one of them the K3 with the Cattle Train at South box? I also have Vol.1 - I love the picture of the driver of an A1(A3) leaning out of the cab window about as far as his torso will allow him, obviously looking back for the guard's 'tip' before departing northbound. Wonderful stuff!

Hi Scott, Hmmm! I've been studying the actual depot track plan in comparison to yours - all very interesting. Interesting to see how the turntable was 'off to one side' on the prototype - it would be good to replicate that I think to capture the look. It's also a mere 45foot turntable. This would help tremendously with your space challenge - but I suspect you will be wanting a larger one than that! To be honest, I'm not convinced by the large radius point argument for a depot. Kit-built locos should cope perfectly OK with medium points, whilst appearance-wise I think many depot yards had tight (and badly laid!) trackwork - the longer radius, smoother points were more typical of mainlines. By using the two types of points respectively on a layout you can replicate this contrast. I notice that all your plans have a separate ash pit road which isn't apparent on the actual Stockton shed plan. I'm sure they must have had the facility somewhere(!) It's not inconceivable that the ash pit was actually on the coal road so that both tasks were performed in the same location? Whichever way, if you could lose that additional road, that might give more flexibility to put the shed building where it actually was. I like the idea of angling the shed building at say 15degs - things not parallel can often look more visually appealing. It'll be a few days before I have a chance but I can sketch a few alternative ideas if you like - it's so much easier to draw than describe!

Further to the recent installation of the ‘curved’ single slip, last night I completed the associated trackwork to fill a long-standing gap in the depot approach layout: The track concerned is that in the foreground, linking the single slip (top left) with the ‘super scissors’ at the throat of the depot (just out of shot bottom left). I intend to use this as the principle route for locos coming on to the loco depot. LNER4479 will now demonstrate(!): Having been relieved from an ‘up’ (southbound) express and reversed through the station to gain the Nottingham branch, 4479 now eases forward along the new trackwork to approach her home depot. The short siding off the right hand leg of the point she is about to pass over represents what appears to have been an area for the engineers as there is evidence in photos of platelayers trucks, piles of sleepers, etc. No doubt you Grantham-ites with more intimate knowledge of the location can advise. Meanwhile, in the background the signalman must have had his wits about him as the Down Main has already been cleared for the passage of a northbound express! ‘Robert’ rumbles over the passageway by the shed entrance. On page 70 of the Keith Pirt Grantham colour book, there is a picture of a V2 entering the shed at this point, with a couple of school boys who have just scrambled up the bank to get a closer look! I should indulge in a little spot of scenic work to complete this little cameo now the track is down... Arrival on shed. If the next working of the loco was known then I guess it would be on to the turntable (if required) at this point; otherwise carry straight on across the right hand leg of the ‘super scissors’ to access the coaling stage (the shallow pit alongside can be seen extreme top right) and then to the ash disposal area beyond (board yet to be built) before retiring to the shed itself. I quite like this viewpoint, which has the makings of a great scene once all the basic railway infrastructure is complete. Be pleased to hear from any who knew how the depot was actually operated as to whether I’ve got these details right. Otherwise hope it was of interest. ‘Robert’

Thanks Terry, Don't worry, I am a true red at heart(!) and - god willing - Carlisle will be a reality one day. I'm just very patient, that's all, and am happy to wait a few years before making a start. In the mean time, I'm loving the green and teak sabatical and the challenge of portraying a different era. I'll start a different thread one day re Carlisle so you'll be able to see it from the first planning thoughts (I already have a fair idea of what I'm going to attempt). But, as I say, a few years down the road yet.

Hi Scott, I have to say I find myself agreeing with Jeff 100% here. To expand the prototype theme a little, most prototype MPDs (certainly anything of medium sized and above) were designed with a very definite 'flow' around the site in order to make loco movements as efficient as possible and to avoid conflicting movements. Depots were working sites (not a place to parade nice looking locos!) with certain activities to be accomplished in a certain time and booked departure times to be achieved. Congestion was the biggest fear, leading to delays and the inevitable questions from 'on high'! It follows therefore that dead-end sidings which locos had to reverse back out of again, having performed their allotted task (eg ash disposal) were not an aid to a smooth running depot. Much preferred was a one way 'loop' system, upon which the various tasks (ash disposal, coal, water, etc) were located and the locos moved from one to another in the same direction. Sometimes the turntable would form the reversal at one end of the 'loop'. Generally (as you have already alluded to) the main shed would not be directly accessed from the turntable. Not only could this lead to congestion but if the turntable was out of action (a not infrequent occurence) then locos would be 'trapped' and unable to leave shed for their allotted duties. Having said all this(!) I am not familiar with Stockton shed layout and it may well be the 'exception to the rule' that disproves everything I've just said! I'd be interested to see a plan of the prototype as I'd then be able to offer a more specific suggestion in terms of a possible layout for your model.

Hurrah for the humble goods train! Afterall, they were what the railway network was built for. I think many can empathise with your comments Gilbert. One of my LNER research books provides the following simple statistic: two-thirds of the LNER's revenue was from goods traffic receipts. In another instance, I was researching a 1950's working timetable and found out that, for every one passenger train, three goods trains ran! Two 'perception' problems I think. First of all, the lineside cameraman of old, perhaps with one eye one cost, would save his camera frame sighting for the one prestigious express passenger train of the day and hence many books give an unbalanced view of what it was like (let's face it, a goods train just isn't as 'sexy' as an express passenger train!). Secondly, that any observations based on today's railway give the completely opposite impression, with an hourly passenger service (virutally unheard of apart from intense inner city lines) running over tracks shorn of all remaining goods infrastructure. Many of today's secondary and rural lines see no regular freight trains at all. I suspect the good Mr Wealleans will be commenting in due course as he is a wealth of information on goods wagons and has indeed already been of considerable assistance with the research into this aspect of my project during the relatively short length of time I have been on RMWeb.

Code 75 slips have always been the same Coach. Peco improved the slip design with the advent of Code 75 (in fact there was no Code 100 single slip before Code 75 came along), moving the tie bars further apart thus easing the curve as part of the re-design. If you look carefully, the Code 100 slips actually have code 75 rails on the inner bits (Peco making economies - fair enough as it's not readily noticeable) so the improved Code 100 variants are built around their slimmer cousins. The old Code 100 double slip had quite chunky switch blades, not very realistic looking; this was the type I was having trouble with. Hope this clarifies.

Ah that's better That 'curved' single slip now installed. With my usual spray paint treatment it's blended in quite well. Time to have a play... Do you like my test train? My out-of-the-box O4 (yet to be weathered) takes a rake of 20 3-link coupled coal wagons over the new piece of track, heading out towards Nottingham. The point behind the test was to approach the slip at walking pace and 'see what happened'; previous with the old double slip it binded too much and slowed the train down. What happened tonight was that the whole ensemble continued at walking pace without a murmer. Very satisfying. Incidentally, what do you think of the short dead end piece of track ending in the buffer stop? This is not any sort of headshunt but simply a short protection dead end. The line alongside (that the goods line is merging into) is the main passenger running line in and out of the west side of the station so this protection was to prevent a runaway or inadvertant move against a signal from careering into an adjacent passenger train (presumably it would career down onto Harlaxton Road below instead!). Such protection was virtually de rigeur on the steam age railway, there was one here on the real Grantham so it's replicated on the model. It's the only reason it's a slip point at all! For the hell of it, once clear of the crossing, I attempted to set back the whole train over it in reverse (I tried this with the old slip point in the past - with inevitable results). Guess what? It trundled back across at the same walking pace without any hint of a derailment. I tried it again - same result! I even tried it with the good lady watching and still the wagons refused to derail!! Blimey, even though I say it myself that is impressive. These are all RTR wagons, totally reliant on their basic plastic fixed buffers when in reverse. Certainly the single slip is a vast improvement on the older type double slip (the point bars are further apart so the core inner curve isn't quite so tight) but it just shows what can be achieved with Peco track with a bit of care and attention. Definitely fully de-stressed now Thanks for further kind comments Dave, infidel though you may be! Definitely worth experimenting on a few old points if you haven't tried any of these techniques before. Watch out for ones that might be a little 'gunged' up on the sides of the rails. When you try and curve them there might be quite a bit of resistance then they'll suddenly 'give' in a shower of bits of old glue and ballast! Certainly be interested to know how you get on.

Can't disagree with any of that Coach. And now, if you'll excuse me, after a six hour 'hell' journey on ECML from 'the smoke' this afternoon, I need to unwind with some therapeutic code 100 tracklaying...

Hey, you can do a fair bit of damage in 16' x 13' David, especially if you content yourself with six-seven coach trains. Interesting era you've chosen as well, no doubt to get the best of both worlds with Deltics and Kylchap fitted pacifics cheek by jowl. No doubt you've seen Keith Pirt's Colour of Grantham book - plenty of inspiration there. I dreamt of having a space like I've now got for the best part of 30 years so keep dreaming; it's great when the dream finally comes true (although the heating bills might yet be the nightmare!)

Yes, I am David Exhibition robustness is my primary reason here. Nothing wrong with Code 75 and I have used it before (and plan to use it for Carlisle) but my experience with a previous exhibition layout was that the track does get knocked about a bit during set up, packing and transportation (however careful you are) and the Code 100 withstands this better. I also find that if you paint the rails it all 'blends in' and the relative coarseness is not that apparent, particularly for a larger layout where it's about portraying the overall scene and not so much about the fastidiousness of whether the individual chairs have three bolts or two bolts (wonderfully inspirational though that approach can be). No rights or wrongs; just my approach, nothing more!

Hi Joseph, Yes, fair point (reciprocal pun). My work merely modifies the pointwork 'as is'. Sometimes, you find two checkrails 'join up', other times there's a gap. You could go round fashioning odd bits of plastic off cuts and adding them. For me it's OK, but fair enough to highlight this if others wish to take the ideas further. We're a broad church afterall

Aye, thowt it were steep like! Don't forget your 'all goods trains must stop to pin down brakes' sign somewhere then! Mind you, 1-in-35 were nothing in that part of the world. I think I'm right in saying that the famous(-ish) Werneth incline from Middleton to Oldham was 1-in-27, by which it was claimed to be the steepest passenger worked (adhesion) incline in the country.

It sure is nice to have it 'on hand' and to run the odd train now and then. The O4 with it's coal train takes about 3 minutes to do a circuit I'm trying not to get too distracted with thoughts of Carlisle. Some bits of it do exist already though, namely the 'rest of the world' and the start of an S&C scene (Garsdale). But it's a sobering thought that it will take a whole 25 yard box of Peco just to get a length of double track from one end of the chapel railway room to the other

Hi Sandside, Just wanted to add my 'gee that's impressive' comment on or around your first anniversary and otherwise enjoying your postings. As I originally hail from the Manchester area, I readily recognise the 'northen grit' scenes you are creating. Your use of different levels and the general 'station within the town' atmosphere is most convincing. I once pedalled my push bike up the valley from Rochdale to Bacup. It was bad enough on a bike so goodness only knows what it was like for the steam-hauled trains that used to pant up those fearsome grades!

Thanks David, I do wonder and worry about the state of cleanliness, although there's no denying the colour variety. The owner of the visiting stock won't let a weathering brush anywhere near so pristine they will stay! As virtually all pre-war shots are black and white, it can be difficult to judge quite how clean or otherwise stock was kept. However, from what I have read, locos - especially the more prestigious ones - were kept quite clean (very clean in some cases!). Also that Grantham shed itself did have a fine reputation for clean locos - and good running - during the era in question, so I think I'm generally OK. I will apply some weathering to some of the 'lesser' locos and stock of mine though. Certainly a far cry from the mid-1960's steam-to-diesel transition era that seems to be the subject of many a layout at the moment...

Looking good at Whitrope Summit 60093! I like the highly individual buildings with a distinctive Scottish look about them. About as far removed from 'Ready to Plonk' as you can get? (unless Skaledale or Scenecraft have expanded their ranges yet further?!)

Thanks and welcome on board Obi-J (cracking name!(?!)) Thanks for continued kind comments Dr G-F. I really don't think that a 'super scissors' on 45mm centres is possible the way I've done it. Cut much further and you'll be into the frogs (as we call them) themselves. I should have mentioned in the posting that the scissors featured perfectly fits the prototype '10 foot' spacing, which works out as 61mm centres in 4mm scale (the equivalent of the prototype's 15' 2"). So there's another 16mm to find before we're down to 45mm centres. As I'm sure you know (being a self-confessed 'track nut'), this [the '10 foot'] was the additional spacing where there were multiple sets of running lines. On the LNER, this was typically arranged as: Down Slow/Relief (10 foot) Down Fast/Main (6 foot) Up Fast/Main (10 foot) Up Slow/Relief. This is still the case on the ECML Peterborough-Stoke (summit) and York-Northallerton. This contrasts with LMS practice where it was: Down Fast/Main (6 foot) Up Fast/Main (10 foot) Down Slow/Relief (6 foot) Up Slow/Relief. Much of the WCML south of Crewe is still like this. The 'super scissors' shown is being used in a '10 foot' situation at Grantham, where the Down Relief starts and between there and Yard Box we have a short stretch of four running lines set out in LNER style as above. By contrast, the use of a 'super scissors' on a normal pair of running lines (Up-Down) would be quite rare and probably only found in station areas where speeds would be quite slow (and often the 45mm spacing would break down anyway). Happily (for me), there were a pair of these right in the centre of Carlisle station under the main trainshed so one day I'll get to indulge further... Excellent, Coach! That really did give me a laugh this morning So much so that I've taken a break from writing a tedious document (for work) to tell you so!

Well, we have had at least one visitor so far (from a couple of years ago): But, yes, need to start saving now (such a better choice of prototype than the O1)!

Thanks for posting Coach - and I do hope I don't end up being responsible for you ripping up the tracks through Greenfield again! I've been following your story with interest. It looks as if the Peco long crossing is too acute an angle for your junction in truth but I have to admit it would take a gentle curve a treat