LNER4479

Hello Andrew, Thank you for the interest shown. Yes, I find the social aspect of the background research really fascinating - there's almost a danger that you spend too much time on it and forget to get on with building the layout! The LRM D2 is a beautifully engineered kit and is going together lovely. Just last night I offered up what I'd done so far to the buffer beam of an RTR loco and the height at the front end was spot on. I re-checked with a six-inch rule against the drawing and it's less than 0.5mm out so that'll do for me. My point here being not so much my skill, as accurately cut parts in the first place. Is it suitable as a first kit? I'm not so sure. It is quite complex - generally I find that etched kits are compared to white metal. For example, to form the smokebox requires no less than three layers on top of the basic boiler 'tube' shape (which at least comes pre-formed). Each of these layers not only needs to be carefully aligned but also soldered on so they are even with no additional thickness added by stray solder. The final outer wrapper piece is half etch (which at least makes it easier to manipulate) with a complex reverse curve shape to form at the bottom to match the profile of the smokebox front plate. The other factor is that, being quite a diminutive loco, it's all a bit 'tight' when it comes to the chassis (etched nickel silver) and the clearances with the body superstructure. I've had to modify the interior cab space in order to fit it all in, something which of course is not reflected in the instructions. I hope I don't sound like some sort of expert or somehow dismissive of your ability (which of course I have no knowledge of). If you have done a lot of etched brass soldering already and are confident with your technique then it may be OK for you (I can see how tempting it is, given your RMWeb picture icon!) All I'll say is that this is my fourth kit from the LRM stable (if you count the first two actually being Geo Norton kits) and it's working out a lot better than the first one I built 20 years ago! And my first ever kit, a Millholme models LMS 2P, still sits in its box, complete but never otherwise having ever run successfully. Unless you are very sure then I think the classic advice would be to try a whitemetal 0-6-0 tank loco as a first kit (generally a lot more room to play with in terms of the chassis and overall simpler construction). Maybe a J52 to stay with the GN theme? Jonathan (previous post to yours) also does a lot of kit building and may have an opinion to add. Hope this helps you decide and be pleased to hear how you get on. 'Robert'

Busy night then was it?! (lol)

....and a few hours later Footplate valancing carrying cradle removed (hurrah!) and a quick clean up for the camera. Smokebox door just positioned for the photos and no front bogie yet per se Always did enjoy late night soldering sessions... ah well, time for bed!

Just about to solder the boiler to the superstructure for keeps - wish me luck!

Thanks JCL, that's nice. My Mum will enjoy reading that comment. You thought it was dangerous? Imagine what it was like trying to sleep in the first floor front bedroom, listening to the lorry engines changing down gear as they approached the corner... Interesting childhood memories!

Been out of circulation for a few days so quite enjoyed catching up with ongoing discussion(!). Thanks for efforts on my behalf in further research although it appears it's been good fun in it's own right which is great. The people pictures are fantastic, John (61070). Did I gather correctly that they were taken by your father? They seem to be in a similar style to others on the LNER Forum thread. Your father clearly had a real eye for capturing the character of a person in a natural 'pose'; they're a wonderful social record. Did his subjects always know they were being photographed I wonder? The photo of the bottom of the stairs may be a bit dark but there's still plenty of details there (eg the centre handrail down the steps). Yes, I keep meaning to getting round to joining the GNR Society; I am aware that they're currently running a series of articles on the track layout and signalling through Grantham over the years so yet more useful information there even though much of mine is already been decided. Thanks to yourself and Mike for all the additional information and details. All gratefully received. 'Robert'

Yeah, that's it! I'd be tempted to straighten it out a bit as well. Given that it's a depot, you could introduce a tighter curve to get locos onto the depot (nice contrast with more sweeping flow of the mainlines).

Hi Gordon, Why not switch the depot round so that there's no reversal involved at all, ie a lead off where your pink turns to green but still heading in that direction? This would then put the depot alongside the carriage sidings; you could then move the viaduct scene round 90degs clockwise. Although we modellers often love to put depots alongside stations, many were often a mile or so down the line away from the terminus and this would give you a chance to replicate that. It would also give you an uninterrupted view of your station which you've obviously gone to some pains to set out as elegantly as the space will allow. As with others contributing to this discussion - just a thought!

Just a quick acknowledgement for now 61070 to say thanks enormously for taking the time to put this further information together. I'll respond more fully when I have more time Thanks, Mike - more leads for me to follow up! I do have some information and pictures about the 1906 Grantham crash - Railway Magazine published an article some years ago which contained some pictures (probably the ones you refer to). But a really interesting alternative source is via the railways archive website (www.railwaysarchive.co.uk) where you can search for accident reports and the 1906 Grantham report is there, including the detailed diagrams of the location that you refer to. These reports can be a mine of information for research. I found another accident report, which occurred at Barkston in 1936, whereby two light engines, returning light from Peterborough to York, collided with the rear of a ballast train. And the locos? They were only a pair of ex-NER Atlantics, if you please! (Nos 2198 & 2199). More kit building beckons, methinks!

To clarify - the racehorse 'Robert the Devil' was (apparently!) named after William the Conqueror's father (the wikipedia entry does not appear to comment on the origin of the horse's name) . The LNER then named 4479 after the racehorse 'Robert the Devil' (ie a two-stage process to get from the Norman Conquest to a Gresley A1!) I once went to the museum at the Newmarket racecourse - and found myself surrounded by the names of Gresley pacifics. It was great!

Thanks very much 61070 for further information. Just unpicking all that a bit: Yes, I have the Cawston book so indeed picture on p.47 (J54 pilot attaching a horsebox) shows the canopy. I also have a slightly clearer copy of this picture as it appeared in the Locomotives Illustrated magazine that featured some of the LNER tank engine classes. Yes, I have the March 2007 Steam Days article so again the Rev Parley picture shows the canopy. On this photo, it seems clear that the 'legs' on the far (east) side of the canopy appear to have be 'planted' at ground level in the gap between platform 1 and the horsebox landing (ie such that the canopy did not cover the latter). Would that be correct? Haven't seen the 1994 'Archive' so that sounds like a useful one to hunt down - thanks. In terms of the north end of the 'up' (southbound) platform and the different lamps, my research shows that there were alterations here post war, including removal of the trailing connection from the platform 1/horse landing area to the 'up' main (which I'm assuming the above-mentioned J54 would have used to attach the horsebox). This and other associated pointwork appear to have been removed in connection the extension of the Up platform. Post-war era pictures clearly show a step-up in the platform at this point as the extension was built to a more modern higher level, whereas the existing platform was quite low. This in itself might explain the different lighting fitted. I've previously seen the picture looking between the down side platform buildings (very attractively framing the A4 beyond!) on your LNER Forum thread and this amongst others was one of the pictures that convinced me that all the buildings on this side were of wood! Looking at this again, in comparison with Roy@34F's pictures I'm struggling to work out where along the platform this is?! The b/w one showing the staircase sounds interesting if you are able to scan it. Yes, the picture of the down side goods yard is gorgeous isn't it? In another of my reference books, 'Grantham and Railways' by Frank Cossey, there is another picture of the train shown shortly after it had set off, captured in Spitalgate cutting, the big round headboard proudly proclaiming 'Hotpoint washing machines for Australia'! Obviously a 'red letter day' for the official photographer... and a sad reminder of what we have lost from the days of the common carrier railway.

Thanks Derek for kind comments. The canopies on the goods shed are nothing more that cardboard and plasticard and are an example of my 'guesstimation' approach. Being round the back (and therefore largely out of sight in most pictures) I only had a few shreds of detail to go on. However, I eventually realised that the basic configuration was of a central building (office?), flanked by canopies either side (which thus use the walls of the brick building as support). So each (canopy) is formed of just three pieces of thick (grey) card - a 'front' face, a side face and a roof piece. I arranged the roof piece to slope towards the building for drainage (I figured that a more fancy peaked roof with skylights, etc would be OTT for a goods shed?). I then found a plasticard offcut, scribed with parallel lines (to represent planking) in my plasticard n card rack (never throw away the backing card from shirt packs or the card from photograph envelopes!) and just cut V notches along the bottom to match the spacing of the lines. Fix over the cardboard and paint. The Keith Pirt Grantham colour book has a picture on page 38 of No.14 departing southbound - and lo and behold in the background he has fortuitously caught the south elevation of the goods shed which clearly shows the canopy at that end. Thanks Jonathan. Perhaps I should explain to those who may be puzzling over this apparent outbreak of sycophancy(!) that this is actually an oblique reference to my RMWeb call sign, LNER4479. The racehorse name 'Robert the Devil' was taken from the name of William the Conqueror's father (ref. Cawston p.19) who, according to my British Heraldry wall chart, was also known as 'Robert the Magnificent'. Phew - glad we got that one straightened out. Who says that an interest in railways doesn't give you an education?! 'Robert'

Hello 61070, Many thanks for taking the time to respond on my behalf and thanks also for your kind and encouraging comments. Can I also say what a great source of information the 'Returning to Grantham' thread has been in my research. Even though most of the information relates to the post-war era, you'd be amazed how the odd glimpse of a detail in the background of a photo can become another piece of the jigsaw. I'm fairly certain that 'black bess' was fitted with upper quadrant arms by c.1937, hence why I have modelled it in this state. There are several pictures from about that time showing upper quadrant, the most 'famous' of which is that below (the most requested slide in the Colour Rail collection, apparently!) This can of course be no earlier than 1935 (year loco was built) and no later than 1937-8 (by which time she'd lost her silver livery for garter blue). You are quite correct about the distant arm on the junction (as opposed to mainline) post. Unfortunately, I spotted that only after I'd made the darn thing. I'm claiming 'compromise' for this one! Re the iron ore wagons, I think the photo you're referring to is the one of the ex-works A3 in 1946 standing in the down loco change siding. If so the iron ore wagon in the background is lettered 'LMS'! Not quite sure what to make of that?! Possibly the wagons had become so hopelessly 'muddled up' during the chaos of the war years that anything could be seen anywhere. I do agree though that it looks to be of the same type. Yes, I am aware that there is a copy of BackTrack I need to hunt down. Just a case of keeping a look out for it or perhaps an internet search when I can get round to it. If I'm missing any views then it is possibly around the back of the station buildings area (where there was a water tank apparently?), views of the 'down' (island) platform taken from the 'up' platform and the horse dock/plat 1 area with the canopy in position (it collapsed in the harsh winter of 1947 - I think I found that out from your thread as well!), plus any goods yard details (as opposed to general views). Overall though, helped enormously by your thread, I'm pretty comfortable with what I have now. Just need to get on and finish it now!

Back to the modelling methinks! First of all, though, how about this for inspiration? I came across this recently flicking through a book about Stafford (No.22 in the Foxline ‘Scenes from the Past’ series). What a gorgeous sight and, although not a train to/from Grantham itself, the service is in essence part of the same network of local services. Indeed in GNR days there was a direct Grantham-Stafford service, but by LNER days it appears that the service was effectively split at Derby. I am however pretty confident that this is typical of the motive power and stock for local services in my era. As you can see, this is the London Road Models kit for a D2 (non-superheated version). So far I have a working chassis and part completed body. Closer view of the body superstructure, showing the elegant lines starting to take shape. Soldering as usual looks a bit of a ‘glob up’ at this stage but should clean up OK. The valancing will be released from the fold up cradle in due course. The boiler barrel is just positioned for the photograph at this stage, no work having been done on it as such yet. And here is part of its train to be, a Howlden 45foot non-corridor Brake Third. This is essentially a Bill Bedford kit, with bogie sides from Dart castings and a small amount of scratchbuilding on the underframe. I also have a composite vehicle in the same style under construction. All manner of combinations of these and the 6-wheel stock seemed to be the basis of the local services in my era, as the first picture perfectly illustrates. We’re well outside RTR territory here(!) so thanks to kit providers like London Road and Bill Bedford for being able to assemble trains like these. I’ll let you know how the build progresses in future postings. ‘Robert’

I think GN that is a great summary of an aspect of the hobby that often gets viewed as if only certain gifted folks can do it. Personally, I love making kits - I can think of no more satisfying aspect of the hobby than seeing one of your own creations 'strutting its stuff'. I probably make one or two a year (including coaches) and I think my big BUT would be this one very simple one - the more you do the better you get! Hence to appear over-awed by your first attempt in 30 years is perfectly understandable. Unfortunately, from personal experience, you have to go through the 'pain barrier' of making a few 'turkeys' before you get used to the pitfalls and start to turn out at least half decent offerings. My other comment would be that I have entered several of mine over the years into club competitions. I have found that that can sharpen your appreciation. People are almost invariably encouraging and, after 20 years of trying, I finally 'won' a category last year, with my two six-wheel coaches - which if nothing else hopefully proves the point that the more you do the better you get. Good luck with the rest of the build; I look forward to seeing progress.

No offence intended (honest). My excuse being that the Kings dated from slightly earlier (1927) hence during the period of my project (1935-1939) it very much LMS vs LNER. However, both of course had already benefitted from the GWR influence - the A4's wouldn't have been the loco they were without the earlier development of the A1's/A3's following the exchange trials with the Castle; meanwhile the best thing that ever came out of Swindon was 'gifted' to the LMS in 1932 in the shape of one Mr Stanier(!) who proved to be the man to sort out the LMS loco policy. I've read a couple of biographies of the great man and I was especially fascinated to read of his personal involvement with 6000, including taking it to America in 1927 for the Baltimore & Ohio celebrations. Apparently the Yanks could not believe how quiet it was when in motion, a testament to the extremely high standard of construction - even a certain Mr Ford came to see for himself! Wouldn't you loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation? Heady days indeed.

Thanks for kind comments guys (and apologies for slightly delayed acknowledgement due to a short trip away over Bank Holiday) I’m also finding the research behind the LNER in the 1930’s more and more fascinating with every new piece of historical information I unearth. In some cases the themes are common to all the ‘big four’ companies in the era; in other cases they are peculiarly LNER. You can easily get the impression that the 1930’s was the great era, with Gresley’s A4’s and Staniers ‘Duchesses’ vying for supremacy as the last word in steam locomotives design and records being broken with virtually every succeeding trial or press run. But scratch beneath the surface and it becomes apparent that the reality of the times was very different. A particularly sobering read is the Hughes LNER book. This is quite different from your average ‘picture book’ (great though the latter are) as it gives a very factual account of the LNER’s commercial and managerial organisation. Particularly startling is the chapter on financial performance. The graph of actual revenue against predicted revenue is scarcely believable; for one year in the 1920's (the 1926 general strike year I think) revenue was only one third of what was predicted. It’s a wonder the company survived at all. You then vaguely recall the odd fact from when you were half paying attention during school history lessons and remind yourself that 1929 was the year of the Wall Street crash that heralded the years of economic depression of the 1930’s. Also of note (and not always appreciated) is that it was in the 1930’s that the government first provided financial support to the railways. Nowadays we call it a subsidy; then they were ‘capital improvement grants’. This at least partly explains how the LNER was able to build V2’s in such numbers from 1936 (and the LMS likewise the Black 5’s). So this seems to be background to the continued use of the ancient GNR stock in amongst the Streamliners; with financial reserves significantly depleted, renewal of stock for the local services in the outlying provinces had to wait, leading to much 'recycling' and make-do-and-mend. One could argue that it has pretty much been the case ever since for the railways of this country(!) but it appears to have been particularly acute for the 1930's LNER. As you say, a fascinating period – and for me perhaps a conundrum as to what extent I replicate this in the model. After all, I wouldn’t want to thoroughly depress everyone watching at an exhibition! But I think a careful representative balance between the new and old should both 'tell the story' and be entertaining at the same time - which feels like the right sort of balance to aim for. Be pleased and interested to hear any views folks might have (and feel free to correct me on any historical facts - I'm far too young to remember the era myself!)

I make it: 1. Eight (agree) 2. Ten (dispute!) I count 2 V2's and 2 A1's... 3. No idea (not got me shed book to hand) 4. Dirty black (at least they ought to be) Do we refer No.2 to Hawk Eye? PS - where was the special? Running three hours late no doubt...

Thanks Gordon. Yes, I discovered the 'Returning to Grantham' thread on LNER forum some while ago and it has indeed been a valuable source for my research. Enjoyed reading your layout thread. Hope your project remains 'on track' following recent deliberations. OK guys you've convinced me! On the 'to do' list (but not near the top just at the moment)...

Thanks Brian for kind comments and I'm glad you're enjoying the posts. Re 'nicks' in the rail - yes, very tempting! Perhaps not at the top of the priority list just at the moment but maybe something to consider at a later date. Mind you, were they at 60foot intervals in 1935-1939?! According to the RCTS green book, volume 2A, p.126, AFTER Mallard's record run, the civil engineer pointed out to Gresley that some of the rails near Tallington were of the old 40foot type, laid in about 1910! (just noticed - and how spooky, or was it 'planned'? - that the description of Mallard's run appears on page 126 of the book!!).

That's interesting GN because I was labouring under the mis-apprehension that the exact opposite was true, ie that they were all wooden structures (based on the fact that every picture I've seen has just a glimpse of wooden slats in the background). I'm so glad that it's been 'bottomed' before I got started in earnest. Research is great fun but there comes a time when you've just got to go with what you've got! Glad you enjoyed reading Theakerr and thanks for kind comment. I'll try to keep the posts coming but, as always, it's a balance between time on the keyboard and time actually making things. So it's back to a hot soldering iron and the rather delightful London Road Models kit for a D2 that's on the workbench at the moment...

Well, further to the above, I'm delighted to say that Roy@34F very kindly responded to my plea for details of the old buildings on the down (northbound) platforms and is happy for me to post so all may benefit. These are the series of pictures he took shortly prior to their demolition in the early 1980’s. These first two are composites showing the buildings from the west side from left (north) to right (south). The footbridge steps come down behind the telephone box. Note the missing section of valancing towards the left hand dagger boarding below where there seem to be quite a few missing roof slates. All looking a bit ‘dodgy’! I’m rather taken by how the buildings go from brick to wood… to brick …and back to wood (I’d never actually realised that before I saw Roy’s photos). A further view of the north end. Here is a good view from the platform looking north. Roy advises that the white screen on the right covers the entrance to the gents toilet (note the ‘Gentlemen’ sign on the building). These collection of wooden buildings do appear in the background of some south end shots but again this is a further useful viewpoint. So there we have it. Thanks very much Roy for having the presence of mind to take these photos. If I wasn’t already convinced as to the power of the RMWeb community then I certainly am now. This was an area where I was going to have to use a little too much ‘guesstimation’ for my liking; thanks to these photos I now won’t have to do that (especially as these views will be facing the 'audience' at an exhibition!). …hopefully my crummy cardboard mock-ups will soon be a thing of the past! ‘Robert’

Great idea! How about a railtour running through as well with exotic locos/stock? By 1958 there must have been a SLS or RCTS tour that ran somewhere in the locale. Or, if you're prepared to stretch reality a tad, you could depict the classic 60007 112.5mph railtour trip passing through (1959 wasn't it?). Don't forget the headboard!

Yes, the Coronation set is assembled from the mailcoach kits (the ones with the see-through plastic sides). Roy Mear's work again. I only get to see the set on special occasions(!) but will hopefully be always made available for exhibitions (along with appropriate 'empire' motive power!). The Silver Jubilee set is in the paint shop at the moment so we're all looking forward to seeing that speeding through Grantham, hopefully later on this year! You've had me reaching for my reference books with your number (69843). Are you planning a project to recreate an A5 then? (nice) The A1SLT would be suitably impressed with your P2 icon picture!

Hi there, As with many others over the last few days, I have enjoyed the sight of the new roof going on. The eye level views are wonderfully atmospheric (and I'm sure you will soon be posting us views with not only trains but people, packing cases, chocolate machines, etc) but I also like the great care that has been taken with the roof top details as well. Such details are often a real problem for the modeller as you're always looking down on a roof from above on a model whereas prototype pictures are from the platform looking upwards and show scant roof detail. I'm liking the gloriously and apparently random nature of the different roof angles, vents, chimneys etc, so typical of a traditional railway station. In terms of the great 'cheque book' debate then if the arrival of the roof has given you great satisfaction then you need no further justification. And needless to say I totally agree with you in terms of the prototype approach!