LNER4479

That (the B7 on Knutsford East Junction - one of the original 18.83 challenge layouts) was the work of the late Dick Petter. The one and only time I visited Roy Jackson at Retford, he showed me his half built B7, cursing at the insanely small size of some of the valve gear components, scaled down from 7mm. At the risk of blatant advertising (which it's not meant to be in this context), a 4mm etch for the GC self-trimming tender is available through G-Train, being the ultimate fruition of an aborted project to produce one in the Great Central models range. One of the features I believed was distinctive was the shape of the FRONT coal plate top, having a noticeably lower centre section compared to the gentle upwards arch of the standard 4000 gall version. Usually noticeable on three-quarter shots of locos, once you know to look for it.

Not yet, but I hope to tackle some soon. I'm not expecting it to be fundamentally different.

It's exaggerated (taken on 2x telephoto). That's the point blade. I can induce a slight curve into it if needed but don't think it'll be be necessary - it's not like it's fine scale or anything (!)

Yes - that's inevitable. However, the Code 75 3-way is a vastly superior item compared to its Code 100 equivalent - in fact, before someone else corrects me, it's not actually a 3-way per se; it's more correctly described as a tandem point. In Peco terms, it's a left hand and right hand medium radius point interlaced. I work on the basis of a med radius point being about 3.5ft, meaning that what I have done above steepens the left hand curve to about 3ft? Shouldn't cause a problem. The primary purpose of what I've done here is to induce a shallow curve into the 'straight ahead' route, in order to maintain alignment at that part of the Upperby curve (approx 9ft at that point). What happens to the other radii is a consequence, not the driver. It'll make more sense once you see it in position.

This is more interesting ... Curving a Code75 3-way point. Actually quite easy. Peco have thoughtfully already provided a series of gaps in the webbing underneath so it's easy to induce a (gentle!) curve there. Just needs a few more nicks fore and aft and job done 👍

Nope, you lost me after the 'just two wires' bit ... 😵‍💫

As already spotted by philip-griffiths above, 'tis a jigsaw puzzle, an occasional weakness of mine 🧩

Nah ... go back'ards the other way. Think of all those other lovely Ds, Js, Ks (etc) you could have ...

I'd be sewing 'em back on again if I'd tried to do that ...

Well, first of all there's the minor matter of actually building the layout that it relates to ... I may be gone some time 🤔

Ladies and gentlemen: Looking down on proceedings from its new vantage point, I give you: ... the former track panel indicator board from Carlisle No.5 signalbox STRICTLY speaking, it's the post steam era layout (dated 1969) and actually depicts the current layout (bar one or two minor alterations) ... but why let the facts get in the way. It's close enough. My thanks in particular to @LNERGE of this parish who first made me aware of its potential availability. There's even a cunning plan to fit new bulbs to it ... 😀

Only one item in the van ... But it looks interesting!

There was a delivery last month.

The square-headed mice have been at it again. More point motor installation, more wiring ... ... and another 'phew!' moment when it all goes back in, this time for keeps. Underneath - for now - it's a rat's nest, pending installation of permanent control panel. But at least with pre-wiring done it's not quite as bad as it could be. I was thinking that this could be the most complex part of the layout to wire up ... but I keep reminding myself of the southern end of Citadel station, or Carlisle No.5 as it's better known. Talking of which ...

Good morning, Tony On your above point, is there not an adage / 'rule of thumb' that 90% of kits sold are never made ... at least the first time round? In which case, why be so concerned about kit manufacturers ceasing to produce any more? As you and I both know, there's a plentiful supply of unmade ones out there. As Anno Domini catches up on the current owner's 'kit mountain', they potentially get released ... to form the next generation's kit mountain! The recent Little Engines O4/7 you built. That had been sitting around in its box for probably 30 years. Yet you were able to build it, no problem? On that basis, there's an existing supply of kits for the next 200-300 years!! OK, I readily admit an element of over-extrapolation going on there (does white metal eventually crumble into dust?) but hopefully you take the point. You can pretty much buy any kit you want to via the 'pre-loved', on-line market place. I've commented in a positive vein on the associated thread you refer to. This wonderful hobby of ours has survived two world wars, nationalisation and the end of steam (potentially making the prototype less interesting?), earlier periods of significant cost of living rises (that make the current one look quite tame - I remember the 'shock horror' when a new loco breached the £20 mark in the late 1970s), etc. Currently we have a bewildering number of manufacturers, at least four mainstream hobby magazines (just in the UK), multiple shows each weekend in the main season. If we're suffering from anything, it's here-and-now-ism - one exhibiton ceases to operate and one shop ceases to trade and its the end of civilisation as we know it! Oh - and talking of the demise of old model shops: weren't Beatties principally box shifters?

'Reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated ...' Thanks Andy for providing a thread to bring together views on this. I'm definitely in the 'glass half full' camp. The brave new world features digital things and influencers like 'Sam's Trains' ... but that doesn't mean the hobby is dying, just evolving. I'm one of those who believe there were too many shows pre-Covid - I certainly don't remember that many shows 40 years ago? And whilst it's a shock that a show like Warley has fallen by the wayside, there's certainly plenty of others to either visit or lug your layout to. See you at Doncaster. And York. And Bristol. And Gaydon ...

Indeed. If it were that simple, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The doors of the carriages in the Armagh (1889) accident were locked such that the passengers couldn't open them ...

Talking of which ... Yikes! An indication of the work involved. Note the two square holes to accommodate point motor plus switch. I pre-wire these - my days of being scrunched up underneath baseboards, trying to solder upwards in a restricted space are over (says he, boldly but naively). Phew - that's better. The slips in the foreground are next ...

Continuing on at Upperby. New boards corked and painted. The central, removable piece already has track alignment pins in (3ft radius), so here I'm using these as a 'springboard' to plot the new alignment pins in either direction. As always, entering the versines (offset of a pin from the two with side) as I go along. Can you see them? To the right of the length of track with the coaches on. And repeat, down at the Bog Junc end. So we're ready for more tracklaying? Well ... yes ... but there's some pointwork still to finalise at Upperby Juncs yet.

Absolutely. The version of that adage I particularly like is: RISK = HAZARD + OUTRAGE (I believe that came out of the petro-chemical industry. 'Nuff said) Like others on here, no doubt, I witnessed at close quarters the aftermath / outrage of Clapham, Labroke Grove, Hatfield, amongst others*. It's very real. (*not to mention dealing with the consequences of people falling from open doors of moving trains. Campaign changing all the door locks on a 304 EMU. That was fun.)

Great photo @46256 - thanks! That departure time (which is entirely logical) would account for why any pictures of the train on the S&C are always southbound. I would surmise a similar departure time from Carlisle for the return working, hence early evening pictures of the Up train on the S&C. I can see that 45268 was a Saltley ever-present throughout the 1950s. So, perhaps I'll number one of my Black 5s accordingly - and have the 9F for the other half of the lodging turn, then everyone's happy 🙂

Meanwhile - and as promised - some latest progress. With Bog Junc board modified and a certain amount of previous mocking up done, can now install the all important goods line between there and Upperby. The curve will have a removable section for access. It is also on a descending gradient. A bit steeper than I would have liked (@ 1-in-45), although most trains will be trip workings. Also, there's a trade-off with the WCML grad towards Citadel and priority is to have as gentle as gradients as possible for the big passenger trains. Here, my 3 foot radius template is being used to determine the optimum position for the removable section (an existing piece of 3 foot radius ply). The removable piece will be the steepest part of the curve; the idea here is to let each side of the curve ease out equally. And here we are with the aforementioned piece cut to length and trial fitted. Doesn't look too bad?

From what I can ascertain, the traffic pattern was such that it was the faster-moving, partially or fully fitted goods traffic that was concentrated on the Shap route, with the slower moving stuff routed over the S&C - where necessary, using the now lost Wigan-Chorley-Blackburn link. Consequently, Black 5s (supplemented by occasional 5XPs) were far more common on the Shap route than 8Fs, as has already been alluded to. It was Shap bank itself that led to operating restrictions, a max 15 unbraked wagons being allowed without a banker. And slowing moving trains held up the faster, more prestigious traffic in any case. Not so over the S&C, where there was no banking, fewer prestige trains and where an 8F was good for a prolonged 25mph slog up the 'long drag'. There were some faster goods traffic over the S&C (eg the Washwood Heath working already quoted) but not as much as over Shap. Happy for the above to be corrected / clarified - do bear in mind that it is the 1950s I'm focused on.

Yes, that's 92167, one of the 3 stoker fitted examples. They were initially allocated to Saltley depot (from 1958) for use on the 'famous' through fitted goods service from Washwood Heath to Carlisle via the S&C, a long standing ex-MR institution. That was always Saltley's 'top link' job, the crews lodging at Carlisle. It was Black 5s, prior to that date. I was aware of the use of 9Fs on this service but again, a late 1950s scenario. Otherwise, I've been checking the intial allocation of 9Fs to the LMR, as per the lists in the Xpress Locomotive Register book (quicker than checking each one individually on BR Database). They comment - and it's quite evident from the lists - that the LMR didn't have a pressing need for such a loco (initially at least); their most immediate impact was to see off the LMS Garratts from the MR London coal train workings, with many of the initial allocations to Toton and Wellingborough. No 1950s allocations at all to any WCML depots. So, other than the above, there's little justification for one on my scheme, as I suspected (and as Terry refers to above). We do use them on the 1960s phase of Shap exhibition layout, however.

Just remembered - one final batch of photos 'in the can' from the final run before severing the mainline (for now). With the other trains gone, it fell to the 9F to assemble all the remaining wagons in Upperby yard for the run back to Central. A lengthy(?) consist of 28 wagons, although not too taxing for such a mighty loco. 30-35 wagons will be about the maximum for practical purposes. Much more than that and it starts to cause problems in the yards. Gently dropping down the other side of Shap. I have to say that I've hitherto been relatively ambivalent towards 9Fs, magnificent though the originals were. I have to bear in mind that they only first entered traffic after the start of my target era (1953-1959) and the last examples after the end of that. Much more a loco of the '60s. Nonetheless, I've been impressed with the running of this (Bachmann) example, so I think I'll make room for one or two on the roster (subject to finding suitable 1950s pix of them on either the Shap or S&C routes) The train is checked, awaiting entry into Central Goods Yard. In actual fact, the section switching does allow for simultaneous moves like this. The handy Peco sideways-on point motor (alongside the guards van being shunted) has been a recent solution to one of the awkward-to-motorise points in the yard. The 9F now snakes its train into the yard, quite a satisfying manoeuvre. And, illustrating how 'long' 28 wagons actually is for the layout, takes advantage of the continuation of the goods arrival road to get the rear of the train (seen peeping out beyond the overall roof, top centre) clear of the goods yard pointwork. Locos from other arrivals wait their turn to make it back to the loco sidings. All this was a couple of months ago. After a quiet December, work has resumed in the Upperby area. Update soon ...