Norton961

The runner wagon was built by the LNWR by re building D1 wagons(I think). If you get hold of an old Ratio kit you can do the conversion yourself. They converted a number of these and they lasted a long time. Not sure but I think the Cromford and High Peak had one also. Someone will correct me if I am wrong. David

Adam, Looks superb, what did you use for glazing? David

Kempenfelt was fitted with a domeless boiler on its last visit to Crewe works in 2-1961 and was transferred to Shrewsbury in 9-1961. If you base the model pre 1960 then the normal boilker was fitted. 4000gl welded tender. The attached photo shows it at Derby sometime around 1960. One of Bristols other Jubs was also named after a warship, 45699 Galatea, Long Firebox and welded tender. I have also found a photo of 45611 Hong Kong showing its red backed nameplate. David

Sorry to put a damper on things but be carefully about Kempenfelt as it had a dome less boiler in its later days at Barrow Rd shed. It's nameplate was black, when it left Bristol it came to Shrewsbury where I used to see it regularly. I will post some pics of it later today. David

Arthur, thanks for adding the info about the ladle suppliers. I am adding another photo taken at the Priorslee ironworks site showing another loco that could be modelled as there are kits avaliable in both 4mm and 7mm, a Pecket 0-4-0 here Lilleshall No 10 P883 of 1901. . Some nice background.

A couple of colour photos of some more Jubs with red backed nameplates.As has been mentioned earlier some of the original Short Firebox locos subsequently received long fireboxes and I think from memory the Scottish ones were all Long Firebox to make the spare boiler at St Rollox the same as all the Scottish Jubs. This explaines why 45621 has a long firebox. So this picture of 46521 was taken at Corkerhill in late 1957. 45718 was taken at St Rollox in 1958 45697 taken at Perth in 1959 The photos all show the various tenders fitted. David

Just had a quick check through my archive and it would appear that a lot of the Scottish Jubs had red backed nameplates. My list includes of Jubs with red backed plates include 45693, 45697, 45705, 45714, 45715, 45718, 45729, 45730. Attached is an LM Region based example which was based at Carlisle Kingmoor and then Carnforth before ending up at Warrington Dallam in June 1963. David

Not only did some locos acquire a red background but I am told that some of the Scottish Region allocation also had blue backgrounds, certaily photo evidence shows some A1 pacicics with blue backgrounds so I dare say somewhere colour pics do exist. Attached is a nice picture of Hood I think at the time a Stockport engine clearly showing the red background. I will have a look through my files for some more. David

Another photo to wet the appetite. This shows a couple of Lilleshall locos with a home built loco Florance in the foreground and the ex Barry railway 0-6-2 tank behind at the Priorslee site in 1954 taken by my friend Tim Shuttleworth and also shows some railmounted ladles which I assume are out of use. Typical steelworks bacground with the riveted water tank. This photo also appeared in the Shropshire Union Railways book mentioned above. the Lilleshall Company by Gale and Nicholls mentioned by Arthur is now long out of print and I understand fetches a good price second hand, needless to say I bought my copy when it was published in 1979! David

As the builder of the layout "Trench Sidings" i ought to comment on The real Trench sidings, there was a small yard and a connection down to a canal basin where there were also Ironworks. The loco shed closed in the 1940,s but remained standing until the 1960,s. the yard at Trench sidings remained in use for traffic "as and when required" untill the 1960,s with one of Wellingtons Pannier tanks working the traffic. The last remaining user on the site of the Ironworks was a steel fabrication company hence the occasional traffic. Despite collecting photos of Trench for 40 years they are a bit thin on the ground, so I only had 1photo to give to Peter to model the signal box and unusually for an ex LNWR signal box the steps etc were on the "wrong end" and not seen on the photograph hence Peter having to "guess" the toilet and steps based on standard LNWR practice. I now have to sort out a box to sit the signal box into and build the embankment around it. The layout is progressing slowly, the baseboards built as is the trackwork and Peter has built the loco shed and these are the only 2 buildings on the layout. David

Arthur, thanks for the clarification. I am attaching a small scale map showing the Lileshall Company,s network of lines, the line showing the connection from Granville down to Donnington is missing at the top of the page, I will try and scan in a better plan later. I also need to scan in a few more photos, although they are thin on the ground. David

Well spoted, the loco was bought from BR in 1950 and had been number 2794 being built as a Dean 2721 class in 1900. The photo above was taken in 1958 just before the loco was withdrawn and scrapped. The attached photo was taken in June 1954 and shows the original bunker, it had no doubt been modified by the Lilleshall company. The photo was taken within the steelworks complex and shows one of the 3 the blast furnaces in the background.These were quite old having been built in 1908 and the Company could not afford to demolish and re build with new ones hence the closure in 1958. The blast furnaces had originally supplied an Open Hearth Furnace untill this closed in 1925 and from that date the single active blast furnace was in use supplying a rolling mill. From a modelling perspective a Martin Finney kit could be used as the base for this loco and Lilleshall Co No 11 was a standard Andrew Barcley and High Level do a kit for this loco. The Pannier tank retained its GWR cast number plate all through its Lilleshall existance. David

If people are interested in this system then the only book avaiablke is "The Railways and Locomotives of the Lilleshall Company, by Bob Yates. Irwell Press 2008. After the closure of the steelworks most of the site was cleared but in the 1960,s as a student I worked at what was left, a block making plant, using power station ash. The first photo shows the ex GWR Pannier tank bought by the company. Some of the locos built by the Lilleshall Company survived for many years working on lighter duties and the next photo shows one of its own built in 1869 and being scrapped in 1950. After the NCB took over the collieries owned by the Company Granville Colliery supplied coal to Buildwas Powere station and the coal trains were worked by a range of locos down the 1.5 miles to Donnington station. Granville Colliery had a decent sized shed and in later years used Austerity 0-6-0tanks but in Lilleshall Company days the bigger engines were the ex TVR and Barry railway engines. I used to live not far from the interchage sidings at Donnington and have had an interest in both Granville and the Lilleshall company for 50 years but it seems not many people bothered to photograph the internal system so photos are thin on the ground. It would be interesting if any "new" photos appear prompted by this thread. david

Having long admired the postings by Arthur on various aspects of steelmaking companies and other postings I thought that I would like to highlight a little known railway system that included steelworks, coal mines and brickmaking all run by the same comapny and all connected by an internal railway system with connections to main lines at a number of places. The colliery section passed to the NCB and was still running until the 1970,s. The name of the comapny was the Lilleshall Comapny in Shropshire and elements could form the basis for a model as having built its own locomotives the Comapny then over the years bought in locomotives from a number of sources. The first photo is of the extensive steelworks and slag reduction plant at Priorslee in what is now Telford. The blast furnaces were decommisioned in 1958 and the internal system closed. The locomotives used by the Comapny included some ex mainline companies and included ex Taff Vale Railway and Barry Railway locomotives. The Company also bought some industrial locomotives from Barcley and Pecket but their self built engines continued to work until the 1950,s. After the closure of the steelworks the only remaining part of the extensive susyen was the 1.5 mile line from Granville Colliery down to the Stafford Wellington line at Donnington which used a mixture of steam untill the early 1970,s. I will post a few more pictures later.

Excellent, nice to see that some had the wheels painted in body colour and not just the NB ones. I particularly like the Mersey Hunslet. The whole area of Industrial diesels seems a fascinating subject and not as well covered by photos. Mike Edge has a lot to answer for, as having previously had little interest in these I have now bought a NB 0-4-0 kit which is in progress ( I posted a few pictures earlier in this thread) and am looking to buy more (the NB 0-6-0 looks a real beast!) Adam, any chance of posting some photos of your loco on a layout? David.

Adam, Really nice model, but I have a question, was it common practice to paint the wheels the body colour when in industrial use? Presumably the BR ones were green with black wheels, red rods, but I have not seen colour shots of the industrial ones. David

The Brits were built as mixed traffic engines hence the 6'2" driving wheels and while in later days (1966 to late 1967) they were seen on freights frequently it was not unknown for them to be on freights in the late 1950,s and early 1960,s. The Express fish from Grimsby has already been quoted but they were also seen on the Aberdeen Fish and the Holyhead meat trains as this traffic had to run fast due to the perishable nature of the traffic. Attached is a pic of 70017 at Bangor with a freight in 1963. David

Re the Brassmasters castings for the Princess they are not yet avaliable seperately yet. Once all the full kits are sold then the castings will be avaliable seperately. Yesterday at Scaleforum sales of the Princess were brisk so we look forward to seeing some built! David

Whilst it will take some time to build the Brassmaster Princess (I bought a set of Ultrascale wheels 6 years ago, as well as the nameplates, 46206 but will have to add the coal pusher bits on the tender) I thought I would post a picture of my Proscale Princess, not built by me but by Alan Sibley many many years ago. It will be interesting to do a comparison when the Brassmasters loco is finished. More pictures are due next week on the Brassmaster web site.

As far as the " full" etched/ resin kits are concerned we never announce anything untill it is available. It has taken a number of years to produce the Princess as we have focused on the EasiChas conversions for RTR models. David

The batch size for the Brassmasters Princess is dictated by 2 factors: 1. How many resins can be produced in one batch. For this model the boiler is cast in 3 pieces, so the moulder only produced 40. 2. How many kits we think we can sell. The market for "full blown" etched/ resin kits is much smaller than it used to be, hence the small batch. The small batch size also dictates the price. Horsetan is correct in his comments about the Re built Scot and 4 F, the market for this type of kit is very small. The model also comes with working inside valve gear so you can see the inside cross heads moving past the hole in the frame. This will not require any change to the axle as it has an etched excentric. David

Chaps, Sorry did not intend to post the same photo 3 times! David

Good to see the thread renergised. My own build has stopped as I started this before finishing a load of other stuff (how unusual for a modeller!) but a Brassmasters 3F conversion to P4 needs to be finished (especially as I am part of the Brassmaster team!). However I have found an interesting version of the prototype (attached) which ran at the colliary in Burnley Lancs untill the early 1970,s. Interesting that it also has the solid wheels.

Re the livery of the Saloons, if post 1961 then overhead warning flashes need to be added to the ends, M45047 was photographed with 2 warning flashes Above the 2 outer windows at one end in 1961. 45030 was also seen in 1977 with a single warning flash above one of the end windows. Re the interiors I have 2 photos showing that the chairs were covered in a material that had very visible stripes. David

The excellent article by Steve Banks in the July 2006 issue of Model Rail lists the initial allocation as follows: 45043 Watford 45044. Walsall 45045 Manchester 45046. Leeds 45047. Lancaster 45048. Derby South 45020. Glasgow 45021 Derby North 45026. London (Watford) 45028. Liverpool 45029 Crewe 45030. Barrow 45035. PW Chief Engineer 45036. Perth. The article is well worth tracking down as it gives details of the building and use of the LMS saloons. Photos show the ubiquitous Ivatt 2 2-6-0 in use but in BR blue a Class 26 is seen with a saloon. David