Norton961

The Brits were built as mixed traffic engines hence the 6'2" driving wheels and while in later days (1966 to late 1967) they were seen on freights frequently it was not unknown for them to be on freights in the late 1950,s and early 1960,s. The Express fish from Grimsby has already been quoted but they were also seen on the Aberdeen Fish and the Holyhead meat trains as this traffic had to run fast due to the perishable nature of the traffic. Attached is a pic of 70017 at Bangor with a freight in 1963. David

Re the Brassmasters castings for the Princess they are not yet avaliable seperately yet. Once all the full kits are sold then the castings will be avaliable seperately. Yesterday at Scaleforum sales of the Princess were brisk so we look forward to seeing some built! David

Whilst it will take some time to build the Brassmaster Princess (I bought a set of Ultrascale wheels 6 years ago, as well as the nameplates, 46206 but will have to add the coal pusher bits on the tender) I thought I would post a picture of my Proscale Princess, not built by me but by Alan Sibley many many years ago. It will be interesting to do a comparison when the Brassmasters loco is finished. More pictures are due next week on the Brassmaster web site.

As far as the " full" etched/ resin kits are concerned we never announce anything untill it is available. It has taken a number of years to produce the Princess as we have focused on the EasiChas conversions for RTR models. David

The batch size for the Brassmasters Princess is dictated by 2 factors: 1. How many resins can be produced in one batch. For this model the boiler is cast in 3 pieces, so the moulder only produced 40. 2. How many kits we think we can sell. The market for "full blown" etched/ resin kits is much smaller than it used to be, hence the small batch. The small batch size also dictates the price. Horsetan is correct in his comments about the Re built Scot and 4 F, the market for this type of kit is very small. The model also comes with working inside valve gear so you can see the inside cross heads moving past the hole in the frame. This will not require any change to the axle as it has an etched excentric. David

Chaps, Sorry did not intend to post the same photo 3 times! David

Good to see the thread renergised. My own build has stopped as I started this before finishing a load of other stuff (how unusual for a modeller!) but a Brassmasters 3F conversion to P4 needs to be finished (especially as I am part of the Brassmaster team!). However I have found an interesting version of the prototype (attached) which ran at the colliary in Burnley Lancs untill the early 1970,s. Interesting that it also has the solid wheels.

Re the livery of the Saloons, if post 1961 then overhead warning flashes need to be added to the ends, M45047 was photographed with 2 warning flashes Above the 2 outer windows at one end in 1961. 45030 was also seen in 1977 with a single warning flash above one of the end windows. Re the interiors I have 2 photos showing that the chairs were covered in a material that had very visible stripes. David

The excellent article by Steve Banks in the July 2006 issue of Model Rail lists the initial allocation as follows: 45043 Watford 45044. Walsall 45045 Manchester 45046. Leeds 45047. Lancaster 45048. Derby South 45020. Glasgow 45021 Derby North 45026. London (Watford) 45028. Liverpool 45029 Crewe 45030. Barrow 45035. PW Chief Engineer 45036. Perth. The article is well worth tracking down as it gives details of the building and use of the LMS saloons. Photos show the ubiquitous Ivatt 2 2-6-0 in use but in BR blue a Class 26 is seen with a saloon. David

Regarding motive power for Inspection saloons, 2P 4-4-0 were used by Bescot until replaced by Ivatt 2 2-60,s. in diesel days Bescot used Cl 24/25, Cl 47, and Class 40,s, but the surprise was Bescot using some of it's Warships (they were allocated for 9 months from mid 1967) on Inspection saloon duties and D809 Champion was seen on a trip from Wolverhampton, Wellington and Donnington (Shropshire). On the Western Region Wolverhampton (Oxley) used a BR Standard 2 78008. David

Re providing protection for the crew on the half cab version attached is a photo with some iron bracing to allow for the better positioning of a tarpaulin, neccessary for shunting in the rain! David

A note of caution some of the Skinley drawings are so inaccurate they are unusable, so be very wary. A number of the Jidenco kits were based on these drawings and contributed to making the kits not worth building. As an example the drawing of the LNWR 0-8-2 tank has the following errors: It is shown with piston valves covers, but they were only ever fitted with slide valves. The cab front and cab rear profiles are so wrong it's untrue, it seems that Skinley assumed the cab profile was changed from the LNWR profile to the revised LMS profile which never happened as the locos remained on the ex LNWR lines. The problem with Skinley prints is that no references are given as to what the sources for the drawings are, it seems that some were based on photographs rather than official or works drawings. I used to use these many years ago but once I realised that they cannot be relied on I don't use them. Official weight diagrams can least give wheelbases. David

Excellent work. Interesting that 44805 has a 2B shed code which is Oxley but the bufferbeam says Saltley! The Black 5 has probably worked in with a Holiday special. David

I have made some progress on my BR version, photos attached. The only problem encountered so far has been folding down the valance as there is very litle to put in the hold and fold and despite using a scriber in the fold line and gripping as tight as posible when attempting to fold over it kept slipping out of the hold and fold. I then resorted to plan B which involved some flat nose pliers and working my up and down a couple of times. Any wrinkles were them removed with a file. David

Adam, Thanks for the link to the photo, interesting that the steps on the side of the body front and rear have been very crudely removed. According to some sources these were removed from the locos working under the overhead wires including the 3 at Crewe. Also of note is that it is another loco without warning stripes in 1965! The loco at Wolverton was D2905 which was photographed in 1967 without warning stripes. The photo gives me a better clue as to the extended exhaust. A usefull reference source is the book "The Diesel Shunter" by Colin Marsden, which has some nice photos of the class in their early days. David

Adam, your loco is looking good. I have finally decided that my loco will a BR one, circa 1966, green with yellow wasp stripes. I know that one of the locos at Wolverton was withdrawn without the warning stripes, but the majority acquired these stripes. I am trying to track down some photos of the Crewe trio with the extended exhaust pipe, but so far without success. My layout is based on a real location (Trench sidings in Shropshire) where there was a small interchange yard and a line from there down to a canal basin. Due to the curvature of the line and the location of a weighbridge in steam days a Pug 0-4-0 was used so I have updated the shunting with the North British 0-4-0 and assuming that one of the Crewe trio had been used. David

Atached is my limited progress on the NB 0-4-0 DH (I only started this week) showing the fitment of a 1616 Portescape. I am a big fan of these and I have been collected them from various bring and buy stands before they becanme very expensive. So on average I paid about £30.00 each for them rather than the £80 to £90 they fetch today. Next job is the coupling rods. From a construction point of view I found it easier by putting the axles through the soldered in bushes and then clamping the 2 side frames with all the frame spacers in place before soldering them all up, that meant I could make sure everything was square. My models are all in P4 and I am also attaching a photo of one of my other locos, an Impetus diesel which requires me to give it an identity before I weather it. David

Thanks everyone for posting some really interesting photos. I have made a start on my Mike Edge kit but unlike Adam I am after much thought sticking with Mikes suggestion of driving on the front axle. However as I have a good stock of Portescape motors/gearbox I am fitting a 1616 version which should provide low speed running. I have some 1219 versions but they are to long for the loco. I have completed the basic chassis but will post some photos when I have progressed further. David

Adam, thanks for the clarification, your arrangement for the drive looks good and I will adopt your scheme as I like the idea of a flywheel. Mike any chance of posting a few photos of some industrial versions as I don't have any. David

Adam,thanks for the reply. Interesting way of providing drive. I spoke to Mike Edge on Saturday and we discussed the need for some limited movement in one of the axles. The view is that an 0-4-0 needs some compensation not only in P4 but in OO because it improves pick up of current to the motor as there is only 4 wheels to collect current. Therefore I am going to stick with the motor driving the front axle with the rear having some compensation. David

Adam, I am interested in the build as I have just bought one to build in P 4. Are you doing an Industrial version or the BR batch and which motor and gear assembly are you planning to use? I noticed that for some of the BR versions that were sent to Crewe the steps just in front of the cab on the bonnet sides were taken of due to the proximity to the overhead wires. A photo taken of the Crewe trio taken after withdrawal also seems to show a taller exhaust stack. Keep posting the pictures! David