robertcwp

Diag 24 page from Diagram book index. Note that the quantity for the 1644-99 batch is shown incorrectly and should be 56. Most of the WR allocation was maroon when new but W1729-32 were chocolate and cream and W1646 was repainted in that livery when almost new and ran in The Bristolian. The remainder of that set carried a trial batch of B4 bogies. 

Bogie types are not mentioned but the first BRCW lot had BR heavy duty bogies when new and all others Commonwealth. Most of the first batch were rebogied pretty early on. The S1716-24 batch and E1714-5 were converted to 4 Rep buffet cars.

Diag_24_Diag-book-index-sheet by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

4 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am sure it must be my eyesight but the new bogie designs appear to suffer the same as the old ones. Have a butchers at the brake and wheel interface.

I think you are right. However, brake blocks in line with 00 wheels are a nuisance when converting carriages to EM and usually have to be removed.

8 hours ago, AY Mod said:

The Diagram 183 Brake Second Opens were built from 1955, and by 1960 a total of 163 vehicles had been completed. A further 18 BSOs were built in 1963 which had an internal door splitting the seating bays in two to create a non-smoking area. Seats were provided at tables for 31 passengers, along with a toilet, guard’s compartment and an area for luggage. 

 

The Mark 1 BSO as built had 39 seats, not 31.

2 hours ago, dale159 said:

One notable omission from the Bachmann Mk1 range to date has been an Intercity Executive RMB, think they've done just about every other livery they've been in even NSE.

 

Dale

Like this:

RMB 1871 Reading_1 16-07-99 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

From the BR Diagram Book Index:

BSO-Diagram-book-index by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

FO-73-Diagram-book-index by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

BSOs up to E9321 were crimson and cream when new. I found a photo of E9321 in that livery a while back. Several were repainted maroon in 1956 for the Talisman.

FO were crimson and cream when new up to E3080. Note that E3076-80 had the trial batch of Commonwealth bogies but this is not shown in the index. As they were built in 1955, S3063-70 will have been crimson and cream when new. 

The FO listing also includes the various other diagrams. E3081-84 were 1957 experimental prototypes. Two of the WR batch of FOs were painted umber and cream to match Pullman cars in the Blue Pullman substitute set in the early 1960s.

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Diagram 71 First Open coaches were built by Doncaster, York, Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon, Wolverton and Swindon, with no fewer than 128 FOs built between 1953 and 1963. Delivered to all regions except the Southern, the first vehicles were painted in BR’s Crimson & Cream colour scheme but later builds went straight into BR Maroon and to a 
lesser extent, Chocolate & Cream. Each coach provided 42 first class seats with a toilet at both ends of the vehicle. 

 

 

The model they are doing is a Diagram 73, by far the most numerous type of Mark 1 FO.

Diag 71 applied to the first three, with no middle doors, which Bachmann has done. Diag 72 had a door into the middle seating bay.

These are the three most numerous gangwayed Mark 1 types not hitherto covered by Bachmann. All have been done by Hornby at a more basic level but these will be higher-quality and higher-specification models, probably with better liveries than Hornby has done.

As for liveries, there was a chocolate and cream BSO+RB pair in the Cathedrals Express in the early 1960s, with the BSO being used for dining.

7031_Cathedrals_Shipton-under-Wychwood by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

1 hour ago, Atso said:

 

What a great find Robert! Any idea what the working is?

No idea as no information came with the negative.

1 hour ago, Flood said:

26/8/21 Mk2B announced

9/6/22 Mk2B livery samples, + 8 months 1 day =

10/2/23 Mk2C announced

20/10/23 Mk2C livery samples

....

+ 8 months 1 day =

21/4/24 Mk2D announced??????

They would certainly go well with Deltics and not out of place behind a 50 or a 31/4 either.

50040_17-4-80 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

31407_Doncaster_1729@1747_18-6-78 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

9007_1E11 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Test run of Mark 2b stock today. The train includes a Bachmann BG and a Hornby RB and FO. 

On 28/03/2024 at 22:46, AJCT said:

Wonderful pics, Robert - thanks for posting.  Don't suppose you have the running number for the BG in the Thornton Jn pic?

 

Alasdair

 

Sorry, no it's not readable even on the master scan.

1 hour ago, Flood said:

The positions of the vents on my model were based on the B.R drawing and photographs, measurement of an actual Mk2C would be completely accurate. In addition, I have made the access hatch slightly smaller than those on the Bachmann Mk2F coaches. Thinking about it there is no reason why they should be any different but I originally made it to the Bachmann size and when compared to photos it seemed to wide (in comparison to the door and window positions).

I thought the 2f had a bigger roof hatch than 2c to 2e but might be mistaken. I believe 2f had a heater unit in the system which 2d and 2e did not as they had separate pressure ventilation for heating.

I have been doing some coupling experiments. My Mark 2b stock needs to be able to couple to Bachmann Mark 2a stock and assorted Mark 1 stock such as Bachmann BGs and RUs and Hornby RBs and FOs. I tried Hornby magnetic couplings but the NEM boxes on the Bachmann 2a stock are so far back that they don't work. I could use Hunt ones but am not keen. I tried changing the 2b coupling mounts to the short version that came with the carriages and they seem fine but then I found that a short Bachmann tension lock in the standard Accurascale mount gives much the same spacing. So, for now, it's short t/l couplings for me.

10 minutes ago, WestRail642fan said:

Hope these are popular enough for Hornby to later make the Silver Jubilee set and the resturant triplet used on the Flying Scotsman after 1938

If they can get the articulation to work, which it seems they can, then I hope so. 

9 hours ago, Ollie K said:

Indeed - though it makes apparent sense that high speed test trains would’ve used the spare set, the Hoather pictures show ‘CORONATION’ lettering on the carriage sides (and no roof destination board mounts, which were present only on the unlettered spare set).

 

According to ‘LNER Carriages’ by Michael Harris, the record run stock was set 103, the first of the streamlined trains to be fitted with the quick acting Westinghouse brake valve, which was subsequently rolled out across the fleet.

 

Source:

 

 

I did reach out to Hornby via the Engine Shed email address they encourage us to contact them on asking if this information had any bearing on which Coronation set they intended to produce, but never received a reply. 

Just going off the bottom of this is Harris's comment about the brake third twin from set 103 being withdrawn due to the fire at Doncaster works, but this is contradicted by a photo in his own book of 1727/8 in BR days. It seems that, if any stock was damaged in the fire at Doncaster, it was repaired. Apart from the two twins destroyed at Huntingdon, for which there is photographic evidence of the wrecks, all the stock survived until the early 1960s.

5 hours ago, Pint of Adnams said:

There were four sets, not just one (set 101 was the Silver Jubilee), sets 102 and 103 were the two Coronation sets, 104 the West Riding set, and 105 the spare, which did not have any name on the lower body sides. I'm not sure where Sam's four iterations of each came from but could be: as built; crimson and cream with fairings and the stainless steel lettering removed; maroon; and maroon with additional inner doors for those twins that did receive them (it's not confirmed that they all did).

 

So far Hornby has only used renders of the Observation Car numbered 1729, which is the second one. No information has been released yet as to the numbering of the first production, but the numbers need to be consistent within the sets, such that set 102 would be 1711-9, set 103 1721-9, both including the Observation cars, set 105 (spare) 1731-8, whilst the West Riding set 104 was numbered in the GN series rather than as East Coast stock, so 45801/2, 45811/2, 45821/2, 45831/2. Post-war, the West Riding used six of the eight carriages and that was probably the longest formation.

 

Spare set BTO/TO Twin 1737/8 was involved in a fire (stray coal thrown up and trapped underneath) at Huntingdon on 14 July 1951. Difficulty in escaping led to the requirement to insert the additional inner doors.

 

 

The 'West Riding Limited' twin first was also destroyed in the Huntingdon fire.

So far as I can establish, all the surviving twins gained extra doors after the fire and whilst still crimson and cream. What catches people out is that three of the four types had the extra door only on one side.

The Twin-FOs had the doors on one side of each vehicle such that the doors were on opposite sides of the train. Viewed from the outside, the additional door was visible on the right-hand vehicle. Each vehicle thereby lost two seats.

The BTO-TO twins and the RT-TO twins each had the extra door on one side of the TO (the side with the single seats, thereby losing two seats). The TO vehicles were laid out opposite ways round in terms of which side had the single seats so that on the BTO-TO twin with the brake to the left when viewed from the outside, there was no additional door visible, as shown in the photo of E1727/8E in LNER Carriages (Harris) page 70.

On the RT-TO twin with the RT on the left viewed from the outside, there was an extra door visible on the TO.

On the BTO-RT twin, the extra door was on the BTO on the side with the single seats only, so with the RT to the left and BTO to the right when viewed from the outside, you could see the extra door on the BTO.

There are errors in the Harris LNER book regarding this stock.

12 minutes ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

Thanks Robert, these are two very useful photographs. Apart  from the roller bearings and added centre door detail on the Twin First, look closely at the guttering. It's not continuous at either end, with sections removed?    BK

Hard to tell for sure even on the full-size scan but it might be that part of the guttering has been replaced and the colours don't match. The far end is out of focus.

28 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Robert,

 

All the ex-LMS carriages have gone, and most of the ex-GWR ones sold today.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

No problem. 

16 minutes ago, davidw said:

Thanks Robert. Aren't those the West Riding twins, which Hornby could potentially make from the coronation tooling?

The twin first is from the 'spare set' and has roller bearings for use in The Talisman. The number on the other one is not readable as it's out of focus.

Apart from interior decor and lettering when new, all four sets were the same, albeit there were only two observation cars.

The West Riding twin first and one of the Coronation twin brake third/thirds were destroyed in the Huntingdon fire.

This image might also be of interest. It shows the side of a second/kitchen second without the additional door:

Twin-RS-SO_JUL-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

The designer of these (forgot his name) said that he had to design 32 coaches to have all 4 versions, apart from the observation Cars. To my shame, I don't know what those four versions are. Is the one above one of those?

I am aware that they have built the doors into the design. One of the 3D printed mock-ups they had on show included the door on one side of the twin first.

The question for me is when, if ever, Hornby will get round to actually doing the stock in maroon.

I hope they get the doors right. They were on both sides of the twin first, one on each half, and on one side of the other three twins. The Silver Jubilee set, which Hornby is not doing (yet) did not gain additional doors.

I'm hoping Hornby will do this stock in maroon with the extra doors, like this:

E1733-4E_YorkCW_28-9-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

2 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Robert,

 

the only sure way to get all four wheels to sit on the track is to spring or compensate the axles. Despite what many think, track is rarely absolutely flat.

 

However, with OO/EM  wheel flanges it shouldn't be too difficult the build a a short wheelbase vehicle or bogie that will remain on reasonably well built track without falling off. There are occasions where a flange meeting a badly made/fitted switch blade will lift and derail, but that is a another issue.

 

Jol

I know, but a few wagons on Retford were found to be significantly out of alignment such you could see that the axles were not parallel and they were prone to derailing. Minor imperfections don't matter in EM and compensation is not really needed. Another problem which affects RTR as well as kit-built stock is back-to-backs being out, but that is more easily sorted. I went through the whole cement train on Retford last weekend. It was prone to derailing but having given it a service, it seems fine now. Wheels accumulate dirt and that causes drag and can lead to derailments. I have spent countless hours over the last few years cleaning carriage and wagon wheels.