robertcwp

10 hours ago, Jeepy said:

The class 442 5-car EMU that ran on the South Western was based on the MK2 design I believe, the traction motors were 'cannibalised' from the old 4 REP units, very smooth riding, 

 

Regards, 

 

Jim. 

They were Mark 3. The only Mark 2 EMUs on BR were the Class 310 and 312 units, which did not have air conditioning.

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Details please?

I think it is something for when using DCC point control on a DC layout.  See here.

On 20/07/2023 at 11:08, St Enodoc said:

Short answer: no.

 

Long answer: definitely not.

 

 

I believe DCC Concepts do devices that can help with live frog diamonds on DC layouts.

On 20/07/2023 at 13:17, Barry Ten said:

 

I didn't bother with frog switching on my earlier layouts (code 100 and code 75 Peco) which seemed to work pretty reliably provided the point blades were clean,  but I couldn't get Peco Code 55 to work at all once it had been within spitting distance of ballast and paint. So, I started using switched frogs from that point on and haven't looked back. For DC, I fixed small Maplins microswitches directly under the point motor, and these have proven 100% reliable over more than a decade of use, despite being effectively inaccessible once installed, since they're mounted beneath the track but above the baseboard.

 

For my current French layout, which was only ever going to run as DCC, I've used frog juicers* for the first time and am massively impressed with the simplicity and speed of using them. I was totally bamboozled by a Peco 3-way, though, despite experience wiring these up for DC, and couldn't get the juicers to work as intended, so went to normally switched frogs in that instance.

 

* whatever Gaugemaster call theirs.

 

 

 

I asked about the Peco Code 75 3-way and Oldddudders informed me that he has got frog juicers to work. 

23 hours ago, Northmoor said:

In my youth I planned a model - I did this a lot instead of school work - of a contemporary (late 1980s) British Rail where almost everything operating was fictional or What-ifs?.  There would have been Class 88 electrics based on twin-cab HST power cars, Class 36 diesels (can't remember what I intended as a basis for that) on short push-pull Mk2 sets, a 25kV 4/5-car EMU based on air-conditioned Mk2s, bogie coal wagons based on European prototypes (long before we really had them in the UK).........  I got as far as repainting an Airfix Mk2D in my own livery and modifying a Lima 33 to look less recognisable and giving that another imaginary livery.

 

Then I started taking railway modelling more seriously, where did I go wrong?

There was a Mark 2 air-con EMU, built for Taiwan.

Has anyone managed to get frog juicers to work with the Code 75 3-way point, please? There are really only two frogs to switch as the first two from the toe end are always the same polarity.

22 hours ago, PMP said:

Yup, I did some for Roy on Retford a good few years back, some on Pete Kirmonds Blea Moor, and for Pete Waterman on Leamington. 

on Geoff Taylor’s Barmouth

Simon Georges Heaton Lodge 

Retford with @t-b-g’s Director?

 

 

The B3 shot looks as though it might be more recent than Roy's time as the first carriage appears to be a Hornby BSO. It's a great photo for giving an impression of speed.

I thought the photo of a 47 was of the full-size version to begin with!

A further small Retford update, but without any photos or video as I forgot to do any, is that 60027 Merlin has retired from Elizabethan service after many years and has been replaced by 60012 Commonwealth of Australia, which is a Hornby model, modified and regauged by Sandra. It ended up being something of a hybrid of two separate Hornby A4s. It can shift the train without the slightest trouble and was clocked at - if I recall correctly - a scale 112 mph on one run.

56 minutes ago, davidw said:

I'm fairly sure that the Thompson pantry cars carried Restaurant Car branding. I've not access to it at the moment, we're in the process of a house move. There's a photo of one in the Harris book with I think the branding applied. I applied the branding to my version which was derived from comet etches. Which I'll run with an RF. 

The Harris photo is maroon. 

Not many Thompson pantry's were constructed. 

Yes, there is a photo of a maroon Thompson pantry car in the Harris LNER Carriages book with restaurant car branding. I have no yet found a photo of a Gresley one in maroon with the branding. However, the final batch of Gresley ones was built during WW2 and ran initially as open firsts, later downgraded to open thirds/seconds, and I believe their pantry equipment (if fitted) was never used.

The Mousa etches are of the earlier variant with shallow window vents. I found a photo of one with shallow vents and the later angle-iron trussing but it was in LNER livery. It did, however, provide support for the variant Brian produced for me.

Brian and I decided against RESTAURANT CAR branding on my one.

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

I've just had a 'lightbulb' moment (I don't get many these days!). 

 

I've checked through my CWNs again, and they've somehow got muddled up (not difficult for me!). Mine are all loose photocopies, including the covers. Somehow, the cover for the summer 1958 workings has managed to get in front of a later year! I should have guessed, because at some point in the late-'50s the format changed from portrait to landscape. I was, thus, reading off this.............

 

 

Which is the information I gave to Gary (Kingfisher). 

 

Now, I'm stuffed, because I don't know which year this is from. It's the winter timetable, but when? Do you know when the format changed, please? Since I didn't collect any CWNs later than 1961, I imagine this might be from 1960 (still with original Pullman cars). Do you know, please?

 

If Gary is reading this, then I advise him to follow your document (which means eight cars passing St. Margaret's). Or, follow mine and assume it's 1959/'60. 

 

The above illustrates (clearly to me) how diligent 'one' must be in keeping accurate records, and, just as important, interpreting them. Folk ask for information/advice, and it should be given correctly; something I've failed to do on this occasion! 

 

I take some little heart (not much) in knowing that the CWNs represent an 'ideal', and on the operating railway, that is not always achieved. Several of my photocopies have hand-written alterations/amendments on them, and photographic evidence can often be contradictory. Looking back through some old Railway Observers (assuming train make-ups are correctly identified in these), there are frequent contradictions. 

 

When I modelled my QoS, I used an appropriate CWN and, more importantly, prototype photographs (it was getting on for 30 years ago, so the memory crumbles!). I'll look to see which ones they were.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

I can confirm that your extract was from the Winter 1959-60 book. 

So far as I am aware, the East Coast books were all Landscape at least from Nationalisation until Winter 1964-5. All the ones I have are in that format. The GN Main Line books were all portrait. From the Summer 1965 timetable, the two books were merged into one portrait format book.

13 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

The BR document I used was dated June 1958, and it's different.

 

Interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Perhaps things changed after the carriage working books had gone to print. This is what is in the GN Main Line book for the Summer of 1958:

8 hours ago, kingfisher24 said:

Ohh while I’m on here…

 

Tony 

 

I am looking to make up a representation of the Queen of Scot’s circa 1958/9 before the mk1 pullmans made an appearance. Members of my club are looking to make a model of Edinburgh St Margaret’s, well the running shed side at least, with the main lines running around the front of the depot and the north side of the lines left to the imagination….

I already have the Elizabethan but the Q.o.S did pass the depot and it would be something different in amongst the blood and custard and or maroon stock. Plus I know it can be a relatively short rake which would keep the pennies and pounds happy, and the wife too!
I’ve seen and remember that you have a rake on Little Bytham. Could you possibly pass on a list of stock which would be suitable. 

many thanks 

 

Gary 

From the Summer 1958 East Coast carriage workings:

On 03/06/2023 at 21:56, melmoth said:

 

Tony, most of your criticisms above seem to be to do with incorrectly captioned images - which is fair enough, and might also obviously be indicative of further textual errors. On the other hand, while accuracy should be foremost in anything pertaining to be an historical record, how far do poorly captioned photographs detract from the textual information? Or are they, as per above, a sort of canary in a coalmine?

One issue with the book is the statement by the authors that analysis of photos was a key part of the research. Why then are there so many clear errors in terms of incorrect identification of carriage types in photos? This is the aspect of the book that is most straightforward to challenge objectively as the evidence is right there in front of you. A more subjective point is the balance of the coverage, as I mentioned in the review I wrote for the LNER Society, essentially that large parts of the LNER, and the wartime years, are not covered to a significant degree but other areas, such as the few Pullman trains, are covered in detail. This aspect is, as the authors acknowledge, due at least in part to availability of information. A substantial list of errors was compiled by a group of people for potential publication but for various reasons the list never appeared in print. I don't know whether it made its way to the authors as it was not mine to send. Overall though, Volume 1 is worth having and I particularly welcomed the large number of photos I had not seen before. Volume 2 should be better in the sense that it covers subject matter that barely has a mention anywhere else. 

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

I agree a fantastic looking 4-CIG.

 

What surgery did you do to age the 4-BEP? Other than paint the yellow panel of course... The whistle is still there instead of replacing it with horns, but the headcode panel looks like it has the later smaller sized numbers. I decided not buy when Bachmann changed its mind and backdated it, but now I'm wondering how easy or difficult it would be to update it to the late 60s.

As I noted in my post, I found a photo of 7005 with yellow panels and still with a whistle. I changed the buffet car bogies to Commonwealth ones - the EMU versions are available as spares from Bachmann at £12 per bogie, so not cheap, but they go straight in. I added red and yellow bands for buffet and first class from an old HMRS transfer sheet. The end doors with yellow panels were spares from my two green 4 Cep units, which have the smaller headcodes. I changed the headcode on one end to 40 by removing the old one with T-Cut on a cocktail stick and making a new headcode to put in. The headcode assembly comes apart easily.

The other thing to do with any 4 Bep from Bachmann is ignore the instruction sheet about the buffet car position as they have it the wrong way round. It will go in the correct way.

And a couple of short video clips.

This one shows the 4 Cig and a 2 Hap also built by Colin Parks (from a DC Kits kit).

The 4 Bep and a 4 Cep on test.

I tested some EMUs for my planned new layout today.

Firstly, a 4 Cig built by Colin Parks which I purchased second hand after Colin passed away.

P1090137am by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Colin converted it from Bachmann Mark 1s with new sides. It's powered by what appears to be a Hornby Class 73 motor. The standard of the modelling is very high.

Secondly, a Bachmann 4 Bep.

P1090135am by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

P1090136am by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

The green Bachmann 4 Bep is modelled in original condition whereas I am planning a mid to late 1960s layout (I know 4 Cig 7429 wasn't built until 1972). So, I forward-dated a Bachmann model by substituting end doors with yellow panels and adding first class and buffet stripes (and 1s on the appropriate CK doors, which Bachmann missed off). I also replaced the buffet car bogies with Commonwealth ones, as the buffets were rebogied during the 1960s. The only photo I can find of 7005 in green with yellow panels shows it still with a whistle, so this did not need to be changed.

53 minutes ago, 26power said:

Thanks for the link to hive.co.uk.  I wasn’t aware of them previously.

Thanks from me too.

There were once morning peak hour trains to Waterloo that started from Ashtead, simply because the stock had berthed in the sidings at Leatherhead, so the trains came out of the sidings and picked up at the first stop along the route. Until 1967, one morning peak hour train to Waterloo started at Worcester Park.

For several years around 1960, there was an Exmouth/Sidmouth-Cleethorpes summer Saturday service, which seems to have been two holiday trains covered by one working, ie returning holidaymakers from Devon to the Midlands and outward bound ones from the Midlands to Cleethorpes, and vice versa on the opposing working.

4 hours ago, davidw said:

Robert did you by any chance test Hornby Gresley's or Stanier coaches? 

Thanks 

I don't have many Hornby  Gresley carriages. I did try the Stanier ones which were OK but I forget which length I used. It may depend on what gangways you have on them.

I recently tried out the new Hornby magnetic pipe couplings on some stock on Retford. The stock in question has NEM boxes that expand the gap between carriages according to the curve radius. The 17mm ones work fine on Bachmann Thompson stock and the gangways almost touch on the straight. The 20 mm ones are just long enough for Bachmann Mark 1 stock and the gangways touch. Most of The Heart of Midlothian and the front three coaches of The White Rose have them, along with some trains on the GC section, including one of the Boat Train sets, which is all RTR.

I tested them on my own layout too, which has 2' 6" curves in the fiddleyard, and they were fine. Although the Bachmann Mark 1 NEM boxes are at the wrong height, I found that a Mark 1 would couple to a Thompson.

I removed the rather floppy arms on my Bachmann Mark 1 stock long ago so my own stock is no longer suitable for these couplings. I also have lots of other stock without proper NEM boxes. I have used the magnetic pipe couplings within set on Bachmann and Hornby Bulleid stock and Hornby Maunsell stock and they give a pretty close coupling. They also work well on Hornby non-gangwayed Thompson, Gresley and LMS stock. The LMS stock needs the longer ones. 

They work on the older Bachmann DMUs too and give a closer coupling within set than the 'Continental' style couplings the units come with. The Derby Lightweights need the long ones but the short ones are fine for Cravens and 108s on 2' 6" curves. They might not work on sharper curves though.

I have never managed to find a photo or diagram of this conversion, let alone one of it in blue/grey.

On 07/05/2023 at 11:57, Tony Wright said:

 

 

Hornby A4s are certainly powerful enough for Retford. Re-wheeled to EM and packed with extra ballast, they happily run well on this 'loco killer' of a layout. 

 

 

Previous Retford A4s had detailed/repainted ex-Trix bodies on scratch-built frames (MERLIN now carries lamps). 

 

They've looked the part for years and run superbly (as expected). 

 

 

To clarify, 60014 does not have a Hornby mechanism. It is a Hornby body on new frames/motor. However, there are several Hornby A4s on Retford, including 60006, 60008 and 60033. They will soon be joined by 60012, seen here on test - hence no lamps or headboard yet. This is a Hornby A4 which I acquired and Sandra has regauged and is working on improving in various ways.

There are two ex-Trix bodies, 60027 and 60018. 60027 has been the regular Elizabethan engine but is strictly speaking out of period as it has a double chimney, which the real thing did not have in 1957, hence why 60012 is joining the fleet. It worked The Elizabethan more times in 1957 than any other engine.  60018 has been very problematic. It was built compensated and after a lot of work Sandra has now made it run properly. It was on the Scotch Goods last weekend.

34 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Robert,

 

Could it be this one?

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Yes, I think so.

18 hours ago, t-b-g said:

With a full set of friction fit wheels but no problems with quartering, this is the latest from the workbench of Pete Hill (pete55) having a test run on Retford just now.

 

No doubt Pete can explain how it is done mechanically.

 

It is a scratchbuilt NER Class J. We tested it on the Talisman 8 coach set, fully expecting it to struggle a bit and it sailed round at a good speed too.

 

Who needs pacifics when you can have a cute little loco like this?

 

 

 

Very impressive. The train may be only eight carriages but six are heavy metal ones - the other two are a Mailcoach plastic kit.

Retford is a remarkably good test track for EM. Whilst trying to clear out some old magazines to make space, I found a photo of a Kestrel on Retford in an article by Tim Shackleton. And in case anyone is wondering, I mean a model of this:

Kestrel_Cricklewood_12-7-69 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr