MarkAustin

Siphon was a GWR telegraphic code.

 

Chris

Not just the GWR. The "core" of the telegraph list was common to all companies. Where the GWR differed, and why the codes are more associated with them, is that the GWR used letter suffixes (e.g. SIPHON G) to differentiate between types, and both used to codes to describe wagons and (often) painted this on the sides.

The codes for wagons and coaches were just a subset  of the whole. There were a plethora of codes used for operational and traffic management purposes. An example of this is STOUR: report how many wagons you have in your yard at the end of the day.

Their principal purpose was to save money in telegraphic messages.

Mark A

I was at TINGS yesterday and purchased an N gauge laser cut kit of one of these beasts.I haven't done more than glance at it, but it seems OK. I model in 2mm, so will need a scale chassis for it. A question I have concerns the brake gear. Early photographs shew a brake on both wheels on one side only, but the only later ones I have are unclear. Did the get brakes on the other side by the late 1920s, and, if so, was it on both wheels, or just one on the RHS as per the open and covered goods wagons?

Mark A

The 2mm Scale Association publication "Track: How it works and how to model it." gives details of how to make custom V-jigs. You do need a jig to make the jig, but the estimate is for 1 hour total time. I'd copy the page, but I'm not sure about copyright issues in publishing it on an open web site. The book is well worth getting for workers in any scale, although, obviously, biased towards 2mm.

Mark A

They ended up sending some at least of other companies broken down wagons back home for repairs. The original common user agreement stated that each company should repair wagons that failed in their territory, which resulted in the GWR repairing more than its fair share of the other lot's rubbish. Like the locomotives, they were scrapping what was still being built elsewhere. Curvy wooden frame wagons (cattle trucks in particular) for example.

Also, the GWR was a net receiver of wagons, so the "spares"  were returned on a regular basis. There were a number of recognised transfer points, which I could deredge up if required.

Mark A

As I understand it, the GWR could not convince the lesser railways of the utility of sheet supporters and they were gradually removed from wagons in the common user pool (i.e. unfitted).

Yes, that is the case. However the main reason for removal was that local goods agents liked sheet supporters, so the GWR found that they tended not to come back for a long time, and they didn't see any reason to pay for repairs to sheet supporters when other companies were benefiting without comparable expense.

Mark A

Off toipic, but when is Copenhagen Fields next at an exhibition or open day. I mentioned it to a friend, and showed some web pictures/videos and he wants to see it in the flesh.

MarkAustin

The 2mm Scale Association has a replacement chassis for the Dapol "Manor". This has been successfully adapter for the "Hall" and 43xx (and variants).

Theyare contemplating conversions to allow other Churchward 4-6-0s to be modelled, and I am looking at using this for a "Lady" series "Saint".

Can anyone enlighten me on the dimensions of the outside valve gear on the various 2-6-0 and 4-6-0 designs to assist in this.

Follows Mark's original link shews that the item is out of stock. Has anyone found an alternative supplier of this or a similar item?

MarkAustin

It's hard to understand why the GW would run perfectly good 2-8-0s into the ground instead of fitting vacuum brakes and using them like 28XXs.  Could the GW drivers lack of understanding of how to drive these GC locos have been the cause?  From reading engineman's reminiscences from oop north  It seems they liked long cut offs and small regulator openings.....    The original GC versions did a fair bit of excursion passenger traffic.

But they wern't perfectly good engines, and I refer to the RCTS, Vol K for details, but the latter history is as follows. 3000-3019 had been previously purchased and were then new. Another 80 were acquired later and proved a very mixed bunch. Some were new, or nearly so, and some had been hard worked, and were effectively worn out. The GWR separated them into two batches. The best, numbered 3020-49 were united with their fellows and Swindonised. The remained, numbered 3050-3099, were beyond economic repair---they would have needed new boilers at least---and were run until they failed a boiler inspection: the last, 3093, going in December 1931.

MarkAustin

Coachmann's photos prompts the re-asking of a question I first posed a few years ago without ever getting a satisfactory answer (Educated guesses are okay.  All I got then were clearly uneducated guesses)

 

Trap-points on freight-only lines.  Is the one at Maentwrog Road simply a relic from its days as a 'normal' branch or do sidings on non-passenger lines also require such things?

An observation. The goods branch at Cockett (on the South Wales Main Line West of Swansea) had trap points on the sidings. As the goods station was at the top of a 1:200 incline, I presume it was to prevent runaways. So trap points on goods only lines did happen.

MarkAustin

Some or all of these changes may not have been seen on the network as the the Swindon Paint works fire of 1911 destroyed 15 coaches including the ex LSWR sleepers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

The fre destroyed 2 of the 4. The other two survived until the late 20's/early 30s.

If just got the NRM/OPC drawing of the J7 diagram. Unfortunately it's terribly distorted and pixillated, so its goiung to be difficult to extract useful information. However, it does show the enlarged attendants compartment.

MarkAustin

There is a drawing of a LSWR Sleeping Saloon listed in MRC 9/68 which I don't have which might be the one you are after for photos, but were they photoed in GWR days or not.

Thanks, but I've got that. Weddell's book on LSWR coaches has drawings and a few photographs, all LSWR. I hope to get a copy of this on my next visit to the NRM. Theres a drawing of J7 on the OPC/NRM drawing collection, which I've got on order, and three LSWR photographs courtesy of the HMRS. It's what it looked like under the GWR that is a problem.

MarkAustin

Does anyone know of any photographs of these in GWR days. I've got a number of HMRS photographs of the in LSWR days, but would like to know about any visual differences after they were acquired dy the GWR

MarkAustin

So what is 'light red'? Is this compatible with the 'warm red' mentioned elsewhere along with the 'only decidedly red trucks going'. Id pretty well convinced myself that these were all descriptions of red lead paint...

Just spotted this.

Some years ago, the BGS examined a contemporaneous model of a  GW wagon. The colour was described as "Rizla" red.

MarkAustin

Some years ago, Irecall a Broad Gauge Society discussion on GWR wagon red, based on a contemporary model. The colour was described as "Rizla" red.

MarkAustin

 

FWIW, here's what I say on gwr.org.uk:

 

"From 1922 onward, with the re-introduction of the brown and cream body colours, it seems less varnishing was applied, and the repainting interval dropped to approximately 7 years, and the pace of repainting seems to have accelerated during the mid- to late-1920s."

 

The qualification in the last part of that sentence tries to reflect the fact that crimson stuff seems to have disappeared by 1928, and fully-lined (1922-7) stuff seems to be rare by 1930.

 

Those pics you've seen of 1922/3 70' stock refurbed in 1931 would tie in with such a repaint window. The first repaints of the 1929 stock however are more likely to place them in single-waist-lining shirtbutton era.

 

What remains somewhat confusing is which stock qualified for double-waist lining ("the best express stock") and which remained in single-waist lining ("crosscountry and local carriages").

 The 1933 autotrailers were presumably regarded as a bit 'special', and received double-waist lining.

 

I'm in the dark about roof repaints. I would guess they got redone when sides were repainted.

 

One qualification to the 7-year cycle for repainting. On returning to chocolate and cream, the GWR Board voted extra funds to speed up the conversion. I suspect that this was principally applied to express stock. So, the Lake livery would have disappeared quicker than expected with a 7-year cycle.

 

MarkAustin

Some years ago, I transcribed the "Company Liveries" series of articles from "Moore's Monthly Magazine"/"The Locomotive Magazine". Here is the GWR section:

The engines of the Great Western Railway are painted chrome green, the shades varying with the works at which the engine was constructed. Express and passenger engines built at Swindon are painted a lighter green than the goods and tank engines turned out of the same shops while engines from Wolverhampton assume quite a blue green. The striping of the engines also differ, Swindon engines having a black band of medium width a very fine yellow line on either side, but Wolverhampton engines a fine white line in place of the yellow. The framing and splashers of all engines are a dark red brown, edged round with, a narrow black border with a fine yellow line inside it. The domes and safety valve casings are bright brass, as also is the chimney top; this latter on Swindon-built engines in of a bell-top pattern whereas Wolverhampton engines have a moulded top. The buffer beams are vermillion edged round black and fine yellow line. The interior of the cabs is painted vermillion to about the height of the splashers, then green above, edged round with black and fine yellow line. Altogether the G.W. Railway engines are handsomely painted, and being kept very clean always boast of an imposing appearance. The splashers of the 3001 class of single bogie express engines are further decorated with the arms of the G.W. Railway surrounded by a garter cast in relief and maintained in true Heraldic fashion, and on either side of this the crests of London and Bristol respectively, also in relief. On other express engines the coat of arms in ``transferred ``on the driving splasher. Number plates are of brass, raised figures, with a background of black with fine yellow line round the inside.

The carriages are painted a light brown umber on the lower panels with black margins, a yellow line being run round on the edge; the upper panels are cream colour with a fine brown line drawn round inside, The lettering on the lower panels, doors, \&c., is yellow, shaded black, whilst the numbers which appear along the upper portion are in yellow, shaded with brown. The underframe is painted black. Horse-boxes, carriages, trucks, \&c., are painted a light brown umber all over, with lettering in yellow, shaded with black. A light red colour is adopted for the wagon stock with white lettering but the goods brakes are a dark grey.
 

The series ran frtom 1896 to 1898, and it is reasonable to believe that it substantially represents practice at c1896.

MarkAustin

A note on GWR wagon numbering.

First, these notes are entirely my own conclusions, based on studies of GWR Wagon and Lot registers. I've not found any official confirmation of this. Having said this, on we go.

Second, please note the difference between revenue and capital stock. If a completely new class or group of wagons was built, it was charged to capital: increasing the stock of the company. If a replacement of existing wagons, it was charged to revenue: nominally no change to the value of the company. These are accounting and not engineering terms. In general Atkins et al refers to revenue wagon numbers as various unless they were in significant blocks.

Third. These notes are based on my studies and transcription of the GWR Lot Registers, amplified by Atkins et al, John Lewis's articles in GWRJ and other sources.

Period 1. Pre 1892.

As far as I can establish, all capital wagons were numbered in blocks (I'm 100% certain on this), but replacement (revenue) wagons took the numbers of the wagons they replaced, so were completely random. So, wagon 3045 (number invented) was scrapped and replaced by a new 3045.

1892-to grouping

Again, as far as I can establish, capital wagons continued in new number blocks as before, but, for revenue (replacement) it appears, perhaps as a result of a backlog of narrow gauge wagon construction whilst converting the BG stock, the company kept a list of scrapped and withdrawn wagons, and numbered their replacements in numerical order. So new wagon were numbered in blocks, and replacement wagons were numbered re-using old numbers, but in numerical order, with the lowest re-used number first.

Post-grouping.

At some point after the grouping, all wagon, whether capital or revenue were numbered in new blocks, mostly in the 100,000+ range, which makes life much simpler.

WW2 problems

Some wagons converted or rebuilt during WW2 kept their original numbers, and absent a complete search of the Wagon registers, I don't think I'll ever get them sorted out, so they're staying as Various.

Mark A

Chris et al,

I understand from my technical support (my son, Nick!) that a 3D printed version of the GWR 3000 gall tender will shortly be available in 1:148 and 1:152 scales from Shapeways. Look out for NBS3000.

John

John,

I believe there wass some talk of a straight-framed Saint print---the Ladies. As I've always had a soft spot for these, could you enlighten me.

Mark A

I think the roof is attempting to represent the low roof as on the preserved J69/1 No. 7087. A shim brass overlay with soldered-on ribs and rainstrip would be better and is something I've been intending to put on mine.

 

I don't know what paint GF used but it is certainly strong stuff - possibly 2-part epoxy.  The original "full-fat" Nitromors stripper would remove it but today's less aggressive safety-concious DIY paint strippers are beaten by it. From what I've heard, there are gel paint strippers to the original formula available as "trade" products.

 

Mark

I've had success in getting the paint off GF diecast locos using caustic soda. You can usually get a tub of this in pound shops. Make up a strongish solution; drop the body in; leave overnight; and then scrub with an old toothbrush in soapy water. You sometimes need a second run to remove stubborn bits in corners, but it works quite well.

Mark A

That was the idea. However, I don't really know whether the Beaver model is scaled at 1:152 or 1:148 (or something else altogether) as I don't own one and wil probably never be so lucky as to obtain one. Obviously you would need whichever scale is best suted.

 

Measurements, particularly the length over the outside of the bufferbeams and between the bufferbeams would be greatly appreciated.

 

Chris

According to the catalogue, Beaver products are scaled at 1:150. I've got the kits, so I'll open a box and take the measurements. Won't be 'till after the weekend, as I'm away.

Also, I've written to ABS models. If they're still running, I'll let you know.

Mark

Not sure if he is still trading:

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4880

 

I've now remembeed I built a Beaver BR CLass 03 when in my teens. So these things have been around for a while!

 

Chris

I'll soon find out. I've got a 20024/15 catalogue and have written to him. Will report back when/if I get a eply.

Mark A

A

from this I assume the Langley 56xx is a duffer although I confess I have no interest other than academic 

 

Nick

As I recall the Langley 56xx is grossly wide, and has an oval boiler to make things look in proportion.

Mark A

That was the idea. However, I don't really know whether the Beaver model is scaled at 1:152 or 1:148 (or something else altogether) as I don't own one and wil probably never be so lucky as to obtain one. Obviously you would need whichever scale is best suted.

 

Measurements, particularly the length over the outside of the bufferbeams and between the bufferbeams would be greatly appreciated.

 

Chris

Chris (and others)

As of 2015, these were still available from ABS Models. He doesn't have a web site, but the catalogue I've got lists them. As I said, I've got 4 of the beasts, so I'll dig one out and post some dimensions.

For your interest, he lists 3 catalogues.

Orange cover, 7mm models

Pale Lilac cover: Wrightlines 7mm NG

Green cover 4mm, 7mm linside and figure, and Beaver N gauge

Address:

ABS Models Mail Order Department

39 Napier Road

Hamworthy

Poole

Dorset

BH15 4LX

Mark

A spurt of activity over the weekend meant that I finished the artwork for the following chassis:

 

GWR 42XX/72XX 2-8-0T/2-8-2T

GWR 56XX 0-6-2T

GWR 47XX 2-8-0

 

You'll probably spot that the first two are related to me working out how to do a radial truck.

 

Chris

Chris,

Will the 56xx chassis be useable with the Beaver body kit. If so, I need 4.

Mark A