MarkAustin

Simple questions, not so easy answer I suspect.

 

I'm thinking of modelling one of the non-swindonised ROD locos bought by the GWR in 1925 but not given the full Swindon treatment and run until clapped out (1929-31?)

 

So what colour would these locos have been (still black?)?

 

What insignia (if any) would the tenders have carried?

 

There is a very tempting photo of 3085 in GWRJ 90 P107 of 3085 in the sort of condition I have in mind. There appears to be a block of paint blanking out an older insignia on the tender but no "Great Western" Anyone know if this might have been fairly common on this batch?

The ex Taff Vale A class Chimney would be a problem unless someone can suggest something similar.

Markits do the smokebox door wheel (Unless I can get an early LNER one)

Straps on the smokebox where the Westinghouse pump used to be would be easy.

 

Is anything else different to the Bachmann BR(E) version? No topfeed on these GWR ones.

 

Adrian.

The history of these engines is complex, and you reall;y need the account in the RCTS "The Locomotices of the Great Western Railway" for a full picture (If you haven't got this PM me with you email address and I'll scan the relevant pages). In short, painted black, lettered as standard (Fox transfers do Great (crest) Western transfers for black locomotives)---I suspect that in the picture you mentioned, the lettering was simply obscured by grime. Most if not all got GWR standard safety valves and cover, and (at least) 3085/6/9/99 got TVR "A" class chimneys. Again, few if any got a top-feed, and they were basically run with minimal maintenance until they needed an expensive repair---and all had gone by June 1930 except the last (3093) which staggered through to December 1931.

We'll done Richard, these show off the layout well.image.jpg

I took this on Friday evening to show off the new Arch and lighting

Could you give a bit more detail on the construction of the arch, in particular the height to baseboard top and arch bottom?

Mark A

Terry,

That sounds a brilliant plan.  I assume that the buildings hardly changed over that period.  I have checked but is this a home layout?  If it is then no one will know anyway.  The only things that would give it away are the people and the vehicles.  If it is an exhibition layout it would just add to the interest, well to a lot of people.

One dodge for keeping figures/vehicle in period, that I got from Tom Knapp who uses it on his Nn3 layout, is to fit all vehicles and people with pins on the foot or vehicle base. Sink correspondingly sized tube into the places where they are wanted.  The pins hold them upright and in position.

To change the period just lift off and replace.

Mark Austin

There used to be a 'Fruit D' and a pair of milk tanks near Finsbury Park station disappearing into the undergrowth about 20 years ago, are they still there?

I'm pretty sure thay have gone. I don't think they were technically abandoned. They seemed to be used in a Builders (?) yard.

Mark Austin

Pardon my dragging up an old thread, but I'm a little short of info regarding use of these B sets. It's been mentioned that they were operated in more urbanised areas as fixed rakes of 4 coaches, what would the formation comprise though - two B sets, or a B set coupled at the outer ends and different coaches in the middle of the rake? And would these additional coaches be BCKs typically or something else like a pair of all 3rd coaches? What was used before 1938 Collett corridor stock was introduced?

 

Oh, and one last question - Karhedron mentioned that some areas favoured auto trains, what's the composition of the rake here, I'm guessing it was headed by an autocoach normally seen on its own with a tank engine, but what other 3 coaches were usually employed in those rakes?

 

Lots of questions, I can only apologise - I don't have nearly as much information available on GWR practices up here as some of you seem to have to hand!

You might occasionaly see two B-sets coupled together (generally as a response to a sudden extra load, e.g. Market Day or a fair), but normally a 4-coach set would be: Van Third, Composite, Composite, Van Third, with the van ends pointing out. Sometimes, a Third would be substituted for one of the Composites. The only real way of telling is from the Local Working programmes, but they're as rare as hens teeth, although there's a nearly complete set from the Bristol Division at the National Archives---up to 1928 in the Bristol Diary (RAIL 253) and 1930 on under its own reference (can't remember/find this one. Will look it up tonight.

Mark

If you're looking for allocations, it might be worth checking the Wagon Registers at York. It's possible changes are recoded there. Can't confirm, as I've never looked at those entries, but worth a look if you're at York.

Mark

I'd say so but look at this photo find shewing a white roof around 1930.Proved wrong again.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls159.htm

There was some discussion of this on the GWR egroup a few years ago. The consensus was that, roofs were painted using White Lead, so they would very quickly weather to gray---it reacts with atmospheric pollution (sulphur from coal fires IIRC), it's not dirt. Given painting frequencies about 5-10% would be "new" enough to be white. There was some discussion about the GWR briefly using a non-fading white for a period in the 1930s, but no clear conclusion was reached.

Mark

I reckon I might tempt you yet. How about an etch to build an outside framed and open cabbed 1076 class?

 

Chris

Chris,

How likely/soon would this be. I've always had a soft stop for the GWR outside framed tanks and coul do with a couple. One as a saddle tank using the Dean Sidings resin bodfy.

For passenger trains, a plain Van is what other (lesser) lines called a full brake: i.e. a passenger vehicle with no passenger accommodation. The GWR only used Brake (e.g. Brake Third) for a vehicle with a brake compartment but no luggage accommodation. Van was never used, except for some specialised vehicle, when it was always qualified, e.g. Meat Van, for freight stock: they used the term Covered Goods Wagon for what we would more normally call a Goods Van. As had been said if any other passenger rated vehicle was used in a train it was specified by its name (e.g. Ocean Mails Van) or telegraphic code (e.g. Siphon G).

I was trying to think how I'd produce the lettering, and to be convincing, the edges really need to be very crisp.  Etching in thin N/S might not do the job.  There's always a cusp around the edge, and that would need to be taken off with a file (not so easy with thin material) or abrasive paper.  It would be a fiddly job, to say the very least.

Laser cutting might be a way of doing it. These people http://www.yorkmodelmaking.com/  do a fair bit or railway work, and it might be worth contacting them.

Mark

One point to remember about layout design is that, if there is a cattle dock, they were either as close as possible to the yard entrance, or had a dedicated entrance, in all cases allowing access to the dock without crossing any of the sidings and keeping any cattle being driven in as far away as possible for as long as possible. This was to reduce the chances of an engine (or something) panicking the cattle and causing an accident.

That would seem to be the case. Here's what the Railway Magazine published in its January 1905 issue:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8382253907/in/set-72157629736491456/

 

Whilst it is red-framed, and thus aligns with Mike's early 1906 picture of No 40 (except that No 40 shows a transitional appearance of black springs), it does not carry the '1903' change to green splashers or single tender panel.

Be careful of this type of early colour pictures. Many of them are colourised B&W photographs, done by an artist with no necessary knowledge of railways, working from verbal instructions, e.g. green body, red underframe etc etc.

It's not an O21 as it only has the brakle on one side. Presumably it was sold rather than convert it to O21.

G'day to all,

 

I did take a very good look at all the photos I could locate on-line or in books. I had two issues to consider:

 

1. Was the step/handrail fitted to the front of the right-hand footplate removed at the same time as the bell - when it ws transferred away from working at Weymouth?

2. Did it carry "Great Western" before (as shown in some images) the 1934 roundel?

 

I did discover along the way that at least one image was not taken in 1940 at Porthywaen sidings, but post-nationalisation, as it clearly displays a smokebox numberplate.

 

The image for sale at "Steam" clearly shows "Great Western": http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/r3/no_1331/print/4039627.html

 

The two images available on-line showing 1331 at Porthwaen/Porth-y-waen clearly have no front step visible. All post-nationalisation images showing this part of the loco are similar in that respect.

 

I chose to finish the loco as sent to Oswestry - with no bell or front step, and with "Great Western", as I think it suits her better than the roundel.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

Well, colour me flabergasted. As far as I was aware the GWR did not not letter any of it's saddle tanks (except for, IIRC, no 850 which got G W R lettering ffor a film). Was this just done for absorbed saddle tank locos?

It's worth noting, too, that if a side tank loco had a centred number plate, the lettering was omitted if the space was too small. Unlike other companies, the GWR had only one size of lettering.

Did the loco have Great Western on the saddle tanks? Most of them didn't.

Have you considered using the free Gimp software to re-jig the photograph to give a square-on image.

Here's http://www.templot.com/martweb/info_files/gimp_example.htm an example of how it was used to get a side-on image of a covered goods wagon.

The Gimp is free, but as it's a Linux program it's a bit odd for Windows users. the home page is here: http://www.gimp.org/

Introducing myself and my model in progress. I'm [lanning to model Cockett station, Goods Branch and Yard in 2mm Finescale. Cockett was the first station West of Swansea: at the summit of Cockett Bank to the East and Gowerton Bank to the West---both 1 in 50 for most of their lengths, so pretty well everything was assisted, which is part of the attraction. The Goods yard was a bit unusual in that it was at the end of a branch about 40 chains long and at right angles (near enough) to the station. I'm going to start a blog, and I'll post a few plans when I'm sure I'm not breaching copyright on them.

 Much as I hate to take issue with my old friend Mark, this statement needs to be qualified. The expression "B set" is used to refer to pairs of non-corridor brake composites in the Bristol CWP for winter 1951-52 and the Plymouth CWP for winter 1956-57. The Birmingham Division described this formation as D sets - the term "B set" referrred to four-coach sets there. Other CWPs do not use the term at all.

 

It should also be remembered that the stereotypical pair of non-corridor brake composites originates from the 1920s - the E140 as modelled by Airfix and successors dates from 1929. Before that, were trains of elderly four-wheelers called B sets?

 

Oh, and not all B sets were close-coupled. Some of the more recent brake composites had proper buffers at each end and could be run singly. This came in handy on the Kingsbridge branch where one coach appears to have been quite sufficient from the mid-50s.

 

I endorse what Karhedron says about the BRCS Yahoo group - a most useful resource!

 

Chris

Chris is of course right. memo to me: think and check before you post. It was the Bristol Division that used B-set for the twin Van Composite sets, and, as he points out, it was also used in the West Country. For information, the Bristol Diary is in RAIL 253/527 (1904) to RAIL 253/829 (1945) and continued into BR days in AN 125. I believe there are more Carriage working books (through trains) in the RAIL 1000 group, but cannot locate the exact reference. I will check tomorrow when I'm there and update.

In the interests of pedantry, I'd just remind people that a B-set in the meaning of two close coupled Van Composites is only a B-set in the Exeter Division. There was no company-wide system, and every traffic Division had their own scheme and, indeed, these could change over time. What you really need is the Local Carriage Working Programme for your area, but these are like hen's teeth. The only comprehensive set I knopw about is in the Exeter Diary at The National Archives (can't locate the reference at peresent).

Leading on from that, if anyone knows where there is such a beast for the lines West of Swansea, I'd love to  know. Preferably late 1920s, but really any time from the Grouping to the '50s would help.

I used the term 'driven' as it took skill for the guard to manage the braking (and the limited brake cylinder volume) and stop the coach in the platform. It certainly wasn't a case of just unhook and then wind on the brake.

 

With gradients you risk roll-back, which certainly isn't prototypical. In DC I'd be inclined to add drag to the axles and experiment until the correct combination of train speed, detaching point, and drag was found.

 

Adrian

They didn't just rely on the vacuum cylinder: they had extra cylinders to give more braking power. This photgraphs shows them under the coach http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10306871&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=1&itemx=4

I've not used B & Bs, but I've been told that, because the loop is a flat etch, it is slightly more likely that the DG to stick in the up position