MarkAustin

Hi John,

 

It is the plan it will fit the 3D printed Saint (the 1:148 version). I have sent you a separate email with a few queries I have though.

 

I hope you are feeling better.

 

Chris

Chris,

Any chance of a chassis for the 2mm version?

John,

Nice to see you're better now.

Remember a while back I asked about a traight-framed (Lady series) Saint, and you said it was possible. Any word?

Mark A

I used John Peck's Precision Decals for getting my artwork turned into transfers using his ALPS printer and have been pleased with the results. Colour is a bit complex but plain white should be pretty straightforward. The only snag with white is that the vertical resolution is lower than the 600dpi available for other colours.

 

Regards, Andy

Have you got contact details fgor him? I will need some transfers.

Mark A

A trick I leasrned from Thomas Knapp of the Nn3 Alliance, who has a multi-period Nn3 layout of the Pacific Coast 3ft lines, is to mount all period specific stuff (people, vehicles etc) on wire spikes, and locate them in brass tubes where required. Easy to change, but fixed on the layout when fitted.

Mark A

Caledonian 2 plank wagon from Buchanan Kits.

 

WP_20150125_001_processed.jpg

 

Knocked this together yesterday and just fitted buffers this morning. The etch is well thought out with some useful assembly aids built in.

Not heard of this supplier before. Is there a web site?

Mark A

I have already missed my second deadline by a day!

 

As a change from working on the layout, I have been finishing one of the buildings. This will sit near the front of the layout with the front left hand corner touching the “sidescene” to block views of trains entering and leaving the fiddle yard. At an exhibition viewers will see the back and operators the front. At home, the layout will be operated from the front. So the slate hung wall (the side not shown) will face roughly west, as is common around here, and not really be visible to viewers – hence the use of preformed plastic slate sheet rather than individual paper strips as on the roof.

 

I want to indicate “Welsh Marches” with the buildings on the layout so all three will be based on local prototypes. This one is based on a cottage in Berriew which I spotted from the bus and then “screen grabbed” in Google Earth. It is not an accurate copy as I have no dimensions and no information about the back, and the side with slate hanging has horizontal timber cladding on the real building. It really is a very small house and the front door really is rather narrow.

 

Work on the layout is awaiting my either sorting out my ancient H&M Duette or finding the pair of bridge rectifiers I bought to make a new power unit, as I now need to test the wiring and point operation and switching. Since either of the above may take some time, my next mini project will be to complete a rake of cattle wagons for the layout. Hopefully next week I shall be able to show some progress. They are all kit built or RTR but need painting, lettering and weathering.

 

cottage 7.JPGcottage 6.JPGcottage 5.JPG

Looking at the photographs, it appears that the half-timbering is proud of the surface. This is not usually the case (except ffor the "stockbrokers Tudor" of the inter-war years}.

Quick outline of half-timber construction. A wooden frame was built up, using unseasoned wood generally. The wood was coated with tar to preserve it, and the gaps filled with wattle and daub, which is a mix of clay, horse manure at brushwood. When dray and hardened this would be given a coat of limewash to seal the surface. Over time, the wood dried out and shrank. As the in-fill did not shrink, the timbers became slightly recessed into the walls. Assuming the structure was properly maintained, it would stay like that---many examples survive from the Middle Ages. Sometimes, the cottage walls were rebuilt, generally after a period of neglect leading to deterioration in the walls. This involved stripping out the in-fill, and replacing either with a similar filling to the previous or non-structural brick. In this case the new in-fill would be flush. As by this time the wood would be fully seasoned, thus it would remain. So, for half-timbered cottage-style buildings, the framing is either recessed (if original) or flush (if rebuilt).

Mark A

The other option is that your local coal merchant has a wagon. Quite a few had only one. But don't number it 1 of course. At your period it might well be dumb buffered and quite possibly bought second hand. You must have decided on his/her name already seeing that all your figures seem to have personalities. Mind you it would probably have spent much of its time in the yard being unloaded, so perhaps that's how it needs to be modelled.

 

I have a feeling that it would take an awful lot of cockles to require an extra vehicle on the local train. Now if you add the laver bread . . .

 

Jonathan

I've seen a number of photographs of Private Owner wagons for small local users where the number used was the year of building. Made them look a bit more impressive when trudnling around the system.

Mark A.

Mark,

Thank you for what you have done so far.  I do have the Bradshaw for 1910 which I believe will cover the public timetable.  Could you explain the difference between the Public and Service timetable?  Is the Service timetable the WTT?

 

I thought I should look at the difference between 1895 and 1910 to see how much difference there was as it appeared that the only timetable available was from 1921.  However, I have since found there is a reprint of 1904, but of course anything that gets closer to the year of operation the better. 

 

My layout will eventually be based in Spring, well March, 1895.  A number of years ago I went to Kew to look at a Bradshaw of 1895 but at the time the best I could do was copy out some times.  I intend to go in the new year to view it again and this time photograph it.  I assume that they do not have the Cambrian Public Timetable for that period?

Chris,

Some companies refered to the Working Timetable as the Service Timetable. Both the Cambrian and the GWR did. Otherwise, they're the same thing. There's no Public Timetable for 1895: there's one for 1894 and then 1898, so I would assume the 1894 one simply carried on (It's RAIL 923/17, bound with the STTs). They generally said 1894 until further notice, and at that time most companies only issued a new timetable when things changed. Bradshaw (it's RAIL 902 (No it's not, it's 903 and 1895 is at RAIL 903/96-98)) came out Monthly IIRC, so it's always worth cross-checking just in case a train time etc was changed with a Special Notice. There's a 923/15, Special Train Notices. It's dated 1887, but this might just be the date of the first one. You've got to treat TNA dates in RAIL with a bit of suspicion. What they did was look at the first page, write down the earliest date; look at the last page and write down the latest. Fine for minutes, not much good for other stuff.

Do you have a current Readers Ticket? If so, you can pre-order documents: when you do so ask for a seat at a photographic table. They have nice sturdy camera stands you can fix your digicam to, so no camera shake and much easier to square up the image.

I'll try to get that stuff to you tonight: I'm afraid it slipped my mind last night.

Mark A

I have looked at the 1910 timetable and found some interesting differences between that and 1895.  Firstly there is a new first train of the day from Whitchurch to Barmouth, but no return working.  The train from Machynlleth to Dolgelley now goes to Pwllheli, but there is a train from Dolgelley to Machynlleth. The train from Pwllheli that divided at Barmouth still does, and this makes an extra trip to Dolgelley, which is not returned. 

 

There are more trains, some are faster and some are not.  Did the train from Whitchurch to Barmouth get returned on the first train back?  If so why did it run, was it a mail train, and how long was it?  Was it the portion that was sent up to Dolgelley later?

 

This is all fascinating, and probably points to through coaches and trains.  I think that probably only WTT for the relevant timetable would give an exact answer but if these are unavailable then at four quid the 1921 WTT would be a good place to start.

The National Archives has the 1910 Public Timetable at RAIL 923/34 and Service Timetable at RAIL 923/35. If you can't get easily to Kew PM me, and I'll photgraph them---I get up there pretty well every week, and it would only take a few minutes.

Mark A

Re: "Hi corneliuslundie (I don't know if that's your name, or the name of a layout, sorry). "

 

Cornelius Lundie was the General Manager and later a director of the Rhymney Railway in the latter part of the 19th century. To quote Ahrons:

"Perhaps the most interesting part of the Rhymney Railway was the late Mr Cornelius Lundie, who was General Manager for more than 40 years, and one of the most remarkable railway personalities of the last century. One cannot mention the Rhymney Railway without associating Mr Lundie with it, for it might be said, without great exaggeration, that Mr Lundie was the Rhymney Railway Company, and that the Rhymney Railway Company was Mr Lundie."

 

He retired when 89 and was made a director. He died at 93 after catching a chill on a GWR train on his way to or from London to attend a Board bmeeting. Ahrons has a good deal more to say about him is his usual amusing style.

 

Back on topic, I have never seen anything like those weighted levers shown above on the GWR, but neither have I come across them on a signal box diagram, so I do not imagine they were very common. It would seem logical that they were operated as suggested, ie held over when a train passed over the turnout in the "other" direction, but none of the types of GWR hand lever I have seen would seem to perform that task. I should have thought that they might be useful in performing the same role as a catch point, which could also be held over when it was required to run over it in a facing direction. Now, might that mechanism be a clue?

 

And no-one has specifically answered your question about the line marked 5 in the plan. Yes, it is a facing point locking bar. Any turnout over which passenger trains operated in the facing direction had to have these. To model it you need a bar parallel to one of the running rails just beyond the turnout, sitting inside the rail, long enough to be longer than the maximum distance between wheels of any vehicle - usually the inner bogie wheels of a bogie vehicle. In the prototype the bar would be raised up by the FPL lever when it was reversed so that the point lever could be reversed. If there was a vehicle in the way it could not be raised and the turnout could not be changed. (Sorry if I am telling my grandmother how to suck eggs!)

 

I am enjoying your thread and the discussion of the decisions needed before you can even start a layout.

 

Jonathan David (my real name)

Before the GWR used bar levers, the standard lever was a weighted lever that was switched forward and back parallel to the running line. It's not a very clear photograph, but in the Templot and hand laid track forum, there's a photgraph of a ladder of Barry slips (in Barry Yard) with just such a lever. they continued to be used in yards as locos go go through them the wrong way and the lever would simply lift up as the blades were pushed aside. You couldn't do that with the bar lever type. There are drawings in the GWR track book. I'll scan and post them tonight or tomorrow

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93181-barry-slips-at-barry/

Mark A

The question of roof colour is an interesting one that I have been looking into as part of my research for the N Gauge Society's forthcoming Collett K41 model. The accepted wisdom is that grey roofs were introduced around 1941 to reduce the visibility of the train from the air.

 

However, have found a couple of pictures of K42s in the Swindon archives that suggest grey roofs started to appear in the late 30s. Here are some shots of K42 166 (1937) and 124 (1940) both of which have grey roofs.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/passenger-brake-van-no-166/print/8053035.html

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2009/post-1062-12620394723493.jpg

 

Compare these to 109 built just a few years earlier in 1934 which clearly has a bright white roof.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/p/121/passenger-brake-van-no-109-8053031.jpg

 

Now both the K42s were finished in plain brown livery rather than fully lined chocolate and cream which may affect things. I have no definite proof but I am beginning to suspect that the issue of aerial visibilty merely accelerated a change in roof colouring that may actually have started as early as 1937.

Roofs of both wagon and coaching stcok were painted with white lead. When applied it is a fairly pure white. However, this does not last. White lead reacts with atmospheric sulphur (pretty common around steam engines) and goes grey. The older the paint job, the darker the grey. So, any new stock will show up with a white roof. This is true of most official pictures. In-service could be any colour between white and dark grey depending on when last painting. I believe, however, that you are right in saying that roofs were painted grey during WW2.

Mark A

Continuing with my updates of very little progress.  Today I have added some cork to one of my boards.  Just to remind you, one board looks like this

 

Pre Cork 1.jpg

 

This is the board at the back on the right as you face it from the front.  Now with the cork added.

 

Cork 1.jpg

 

I used this board as the curve on it is from a piece of Settrack and a curved point.  I felt if I did this one first then it would fix the rest of the layout.  I have removed as much Settrack from the layout except where absolutely necessary.  I also found out that I have bought the small radius points for the fiddle yard.  Ho hum.  I have made everything else at least 2nd radius, and I think these are but they are not going back.

 

I will need to probably put all four boards up together to do the rest.  To do that I will need to do two things.  Firstly buy a new printer to print out the track plan, as my present one died a couple of weeks ago, and secondly buy the dowels I have been talking about since about page two of the thread.

 

I have obviously not tried very hard as I Googled tonight and came up with this

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-12mm-Precision-Model-Railway-Train-Set-Baseboard-Alignment-Dowel-Pins-Joiner-/290767745809

 

or interestingly, this

 

http://www.fephydraulics.co.uk/online_shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_13&products_id=1789

 

Thoughts would be appreciated.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Another useful source of baseboard bits and pieces is

http://www.stationroadbaseboards.co.uk/

I've used them. Generally very good quality and quick mail-order turn round.

Mark A

Reminds me that I need to crack on a bit with the project. The first part is here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1345/entry-13931-peckett-y-class-bodywork/

 

I would recommend the option of a pre-rolled saddle tank that Nick Tilston offers.

 

Mark

Mark,

In the link you mention Railway Bylines Summer Special. Is that number one with the narrow gauge loco on the front cover? The Railway Bylines webpage has this, but I can't see a table of contents for it.

Mark A

Morning Chris,

I wonder how much of our feeling about dark and grey women's clothing stems from Victoria's period of mourning? Wonder if she could be seen as a leader of fashion, or was it the womenfolk coming out in sympathy?

Kind regards

Jock.

PS another vote for the top roof! Not a historical statement, more a 'rule1' feeling that it's more pleasing to the eye!

It's worth pointing out that before cheap coal tar type dyes came out, black and other dark colours were very expensive, and thus high prestige. With vegetable dyes, to get black involved two or three separate dying processes. Purple was even more expensive, hence it's association with royalty. In general, you would find upper class men mostly ewearing black, women either dark colours or white or light colours, mostly for the young and in summer. The lower orders would mostly be in browns, sometimes green, and the middle classes somewhere inbetween.

Mark A

Fresh from the paint shop, after a liberal sprinkling of choice words while getting all of the knitting hooked up to the arms and servos again.

 

 

P1040567.JPG P1040568.JPG

 

Please ignore the chaos in the background.

 

Hopefully this and its little friend will be planted on St Ruth tomorrow.

What did you use for the spectacle glass?

Mark A

I could in the middle future (if you know what I mean) with some finials. Will you let us know when you're reordering, so we can work out how many we'd need. I presume you would allow about 50% ec=xtra for wastage.

Mark A

600mm is generally considered the acceptable minimum for most main line stock. It's what's used on Copenhagen Fields in the fiddle yards.  You can go tighter but you might have to accept some limitations on what you run. Issues such as bogie/pony truck swing on steam locos become a problem for scale size wheels.

 

Lay out the curves carefully. An accidental tightening of the radius may not look much of a problem but it can result in a tight radius at that spot.

 

Mark

I'd second Mark's point. Two tips. Use a curved template to lay the track, in particular for the (by 2mm standards) sharp 2ft curves. This doesn't have to be anything elaborate, just a 1mm ply curved section. Also, avoid wherever possible having rail joints on the curved sections. If you have to be very careful in making them as it is very easy to leave a kink in the track at a joint.

Mark A

Perhaps a 'complete this kit' button in the shop which adds the right ancillary bits you need to go with the chosen chassis?

Probably easy to suggest but rather harder to implement! 

There's a list in the instructions. Two parts. First a list of the common parts needed by all kites, then a table giving the special needs of each kit plus a suggested alternative motor. can't see anything else is necessary, although a "required components" a la wagon kits would be nice.

Mark A

It's often said that coach/waggon roofs darkened due to weathering and built-up grime.

This is incorrect.

The roofs were painted with white lead, which reacts with sulphur (IIRC) and gets progressively darker over time. Consequently, unless you are modelling a new rake of stock, any formation could have roofs of any colour between white and darkish grey depending on the time since the vehicle was out-shopped last.

It's an important distinction about the process, as the roof base colour would be uniform at any time with only a secondary change due to smoke etc.

Mark A

I think it might be Shire Scenes. Scale Scenes are downloadable card kits.

Just checked, Yes, Shire Scenes, ref. S43 3 GWR PLATFORM SEATS, short type, curly monogram

Mark A

Thanks for that Mark. I have had a look at the on-line catalogue of the NLW and have noted down a number of items that I need to have a look at. Will be a while before I can get there, but at least it's reasonable close to NE as well so I will be able to take some hillside shots over the river for the backscene.

 

as for my period... I don't really have one. A key reason for choosing NE for my layout was that the track plan was almost static from opening in 1895 to the removal of the signal box and loco shed in the 1960s. Even the station building appears to have been left in GW colours throughout. So with some removable buildings and signs and a variety of people and vehicles I intend to model pretty much the whole life of the line (as I intend to leave the demolition of the SB and loco shed until closure in 1972 to allow me to run some blue diesels). I'm even considering allowing the failed preservation group to succeed and thus keep it open to modern day with preserved locos and stock running. But that's all quite a way in the future.

 

It's actually ChrisN's work that has got me looking more closely at the first decade of the line. It looks very interesting, though will also involve quite a bit of kit and scratch building as there's not much ready to run late Victorian and Edwardian stock! I plan to continue following Chris!

 

Neil

If you're looking at a multi-period layout, may I share a trick with you that I got from Tom Knapp of the Nn3 Alliance (he's USA based and models the 3ft NG lines). He does the same thing, and has cars, people, anything that's period specific and fixed, detachable and fixed in place by a pin in, for example, the foot/leg of a figure locating in a tube sunk in the baseboard. Things can be removed and replaced quickli, but can't be knocked over by a jolt on the baseboard.

Mark A

So yesterday I had Cader Idris and today the postman brought me the copy of GW Railway Journal issue 37, which has forty pages on the NE branch. This is full of pictures, half of which are for NE. As I'm working (in theory) I've not had time to read, but I see all sort of new things (rabbit traffic for example!) in the text as well as train formations, especially for the early years - I now know I need some four and six wheeled coaches for example (which I did know, but didn't have the formations).

 

As for the scenic side there are great pictures of the station, goods shed, signal box, turntable, engine shed, water tower, livestock dock... and multiples of many of those. Many of those buildings I've not had anything on except some very long range aerial shots from 1937! Now I have close ups. I'm particularly pleased about the photos of the turntable as I didn't think I was going to find that anywhere as it was even hidden on my 1937 overview shot. There's even a better aerial shot, which shows the coal staithes and crane. It also shows that the yard really did look as cramped as my plan does!

 

Lots to read and lots to pick out from the pictures. I even have named staff to pick up on!

 

But I need to keep to my self imposed rule and keep Doxey End ahead of Newcastle Emlyn as that's where I am trying out my new found modelling techniques before committing them to my NE layout! Will be hard to resist not making a start on a few small items though!

 

A very happy Neil! (only slightly less happy that I really need to get back to concentrating on my conference call!)

A source I found useful, if you havn't already tried it is the National Library of Wales. They've got quite a few railway photographs, and also the Aerofilm and RAF 1940 arial survey photographs for Wales. A bit late for your period, but the basic landscape wouldn't have changed much, and I don't think the track layout changed much either.

Mark A

Just appeared on my workbench is the result of my first attempt at producing artwork for the chemical etching process :

 

 

On here, there are plates for both the 1854 Saddle Tank (1752) and the Metro (615), but also for a 1076 Buffalo (1601), a Dean Goods, an Armstrong Goods and a Duke (Fowey).  There are also some plates for some of the other members of the Midland Area Group of the 2mm Association too.  I've also produced the windows for my signal box and also some GWR station seats with the curly monogram ends (oh and of course some Shunt Ahead signal arms and "S" plates for them as MSE don't seem to do those in 2mm).  That lot should ensure that my retirement is a busy place  

 

Ian

I could do with a few items off that etch, in particular the seat end, signal box windows and shunt ahead signal. Would quite happily by a complete etch if that's the simplest way. If possible, please contact me off-list

Mark A

Hi DR, thanks for commenting.

 

The crossover in the bay platform is a puzzle as it doesn't appear on the OS maps (of any year between 1906 and 1974) but does appear on the signalling diagram of the station. Unfortunately I can't find any photos to corroborate its existence.

 

However, I do have a photo of the eastern end of the goods shed. The points at that end are so close to the shed that without the crossover in the bay to the west of the shed the engine would have had to enter the shed in order to get to the spur siding that goes east from the shed. I too saw this as unlikely to have been desired, so I saw this as circumstantial evidence pointing to the existence of the crossover. My guess is that a freight train would pull in with the vans for the shed alongside the bay platform and then reverse across the crossover into the shed, thus staying outside the shed to the west. The loco could then run around the shed to pull the wagons out eastwards.

 

From the evidence I have from photos the bay was never actually used as a platform, but only as a location to place cattle trucks.  I'm not keen on making that road into a passenger only road. Not because it changes the look of the station, the ethos of which is clearly still NE, but because at no time in its history would NE traffic have justified a second passenger platform. At it's peak it saw just seven passenger trains per day.

I honestly have no idea how they would have worked it without occasionally driving a loco through the shed, but the crossover and the road beyond it into the bay make that less of a requirement. However, I'd love someone to come along and say... "it's obvious! This is how they would have done it..." 

Don't rely on OS maps for track layout: it was quite often the case that cross-overs etc were omitted. The signalling diagram is almost certainly correct.

Mark A

I agree that signal 41 is badly sighted. I suspect that, if it cannot be relocated, it would be a on a short post and a center pivot "somersault" signal to avoid fouling the lien. The GWR wasn't a great user of these, but did use them in these circumstances. There was one on Cockett station where the platforms come right up to a rather high overbridge, and the Down starter is beyond the bridge.

Mark Austin

Possibly a silly question: "White light disc", does that do exactly what it says on the tin: a normal ground disc but with different coloured spectacle glass (which one does the white replace?)

 

Possibly an even more silly question: does the same apply then to signals lets say on an engine release crossover or in case or Marlingford if I hadn't chickened out on fully signalling it the signal from the loop back to the branch, because it needs to passes if on to get to the cattle dock.

The White replaces the Red. This was unique to the GWR (as far as I know) and was used to control movements off the main line to sidings. White meant route set to main line; green route set for siding.

Mark Austin