Craigw

From looking at photographs, there were 3 changes that were implemented on the Churchward 3500 gallon tenders during the 1920s. The first seems to have been introduced with the tenders used on the Castle class and then eventually retrofitted to other tenders (including eventually 2500 and 300 gallon tenders). This was the beefed up springs which are very obvious by having a straight top rather than the more familiar curve of the springs. Whilst shown in a photo of 4073 in grey in August 1923, it seems to have been slower to implement on other tenders. The earliest photo I have seen them on another class is of a Star at Oxford in May 1925 (GWRJ 30) The strengthening bracket is a later modification - the Castle class locos built with 3500 gallon tenders did not have it up to at least the 6/27 entry into service locos (5006 shown in Russell). There is a very good photo of a County 4-4-0 fitted with a modified tender in 1930 (Great Western Scene plate 2). The third modification is the transverse vacuum cylinder. This was not in use on any of the tenders on the Castle class up to 6/27 (5006 as above) and the earliest definite one I can find is the County photo above. They become progressively more common through the 1930s even appearing on some 3000 gallon tenders. Anyone who feels like looking at photographs and trying to become a bit more precise on this please do. I would suspect that GA drawings if they survive would have ammendment details to cover these. All we need are GA and detail drawings! Regards, Craig W

Clive, I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next aluminium foil hat wearing cupboard dweller, but let us be realistic here. The main person pointing things out is Martin who produces Templot - for free. Templot will still be downloaded and installed - for free - by people who work in scales or gauges other than OO. So, where or what is this vested interest? Regards, Craigw

Miss Prism, According to the Martin Finney instructions, lot A113 comprised of tenders number 2384-2403. By my count that is twenty, so plainly not all King class were even fitted with these tenders unless ten on A117 were built to the design as well. Regards, Craigw

Coachmann, I have been reading through the Finney and Mitchell 4000 gallon tender instructions and there was only one lot built with that configuration. All others had a single filler. The earlier lots had a patch over the spots where the twin fillers had been in the original design - this was later removed. If anyone has the instruction they could post which lot and quantity were built with the twin fillers. regards, Craig W

Colin, Kevin Robertson also has a mock up of the cover in his latest cattle dog... http://www.noodlebooks.co.uk/catalogue2013-14/index.html#2 As you can see, the title differs slightly. From reading his site, the book appears to concentrate on 1948-1966 but does provide new information from the earlier periods. As a fellow D. N & S tragic (albeit planning to model the mid 1920s), I look forward to seeing any book on the line. Very interesting to see this process underway. I am planning to model a might have been in the form of Highclere, but with a lime works there. Basically this is because I like the simpler arrangement of Highclere a bit more. Anyway, keep going! regards, Craig w

Try contacting coach bogie on this site. He is aware of David Geens movements at times. David gives brilliant service and is very helpful when you can contact him... that is the challenging bit at times. Craig W

Nick, Colour is not off topic, especially when trying to work out what a colour looks like. The NSWGR was a colonial railway and was built and staffed by people who had backgrounds in the LNWR and GWR in particular. Before I changed over to modelling the GWR I did a great deal of research on the NSWGR in the 19th Century going through tender documents, registers and also looking at the importation of materials including dry materials for paint - all of which were usually purchased from the UK. Considering the backgrounds of the staff and the influence that they carried over it would certainly be worth looking at contemporary sources - even from other countries. Indian Red, Purple Brown and Venetian Red are all different colours so if someone says "red brown" then it is a very real possibility they mean a different colour. Find a book on 19th century painting and look at the mixing colours. While I model the mid 1920s GWR, I have an interest in the earlier period (I also have a River class kit to do battle with at some point) and I am curious as to what colour was used as many of the models look far to brown (to me) if Indian red was the colour used. Craig W

"I'm not a GWR expert , but I know a bit about the NSWGR and I would be very cautious about easily equating NSWGR Indian red or "Tuscan"" Ravenser, Indian red and tuscan are two different colours. Tuscan, as in the Tuscan and Russet scheme was Venetian red, which is a far brighter and clearer red than Indian red. The final photos I linked to are of a carriage section that was built in 1905 for the 50 year celebrations. It was presented to the Commissioner and after the presentations it was passed to the Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences. On balance, it seems likely that NSWR stock was being painted Indian red around 1900 and was painted T&R from 1919. The only reason I mentioned Indian red in the first place is because the colour gives some "starting point" for deciding what Indian red actually is. On my understanding Indian red is a colour that does tend towards a purple hue and all the mixing info I have seen suggests that. Someone has said that GWR frames were painted Indian red pre 1906, but I would like to see a contemporary source that uses that name. The locomotive article on the GWR modelling site only says red brown while it says Chrome green for the green - so was it Indian red or red brown? Craig W

The other interesting thing with that drawing/ painting is that it shows the springs in black, where as the majority of models have them painted the frame colour. Any thoughts on that? Craig w

The NSWR used "deep indian red" on some stock from 1974, but from 1954 they used "Indian red". The indian red was a British standard paint and the NSWR used standard paints from inception. I have a painting book somewhere from about 1890 that lists paint recipes, I will see if I can locate it. There is a section of an LFX (2nd class Express Lavatory car) that was built in 1905 and painted in then contemporary colours which research suggests is Indian red. This has been in store and preserved since 1905. i will see if I can find a colour picture of it. The point is that Indian red is just that - a red. Anything that tends towards brown is not Indian red. Miss Prism, Are there any contemporary sources that refer to Indian red? I noticed that the extract from "The Locomotive" on the GWR modelling site describes the green as chrome green, but refers to the frames being painted red-brown and does not specifically say "Indian Red" Found some photos of the carriage sections. These date from 1905 and still have the original paint - also always kept indoors: http://web.aanet.com.au/bayling/NSWRsect.html Craig W

The NSWGR (New South Government railways) and successors painted coaching stock in "Indian Red" from 1954 onwards. I found some pics on flickr which give some idea of "Indian red". Here are some links: http://www.flickr.com/photos/intervene/4887313067/in/set-72157624110383458 http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorjbeam/7182520107/ Browsing around through Flickr will show plenty of others, but personally I think Indian Red has for more red in it than brown. Regards, Craig W

Being reminded of a brain explosion is a good thing, like (nearly) everyone else here I had forgotten about the John Lewis series. It is still a bit vague about which vans had the offset V hangers and why (the why fascinates me at least!) I am going to work under the assumption that if one wagon in a lot had offset hangers then on the balance of probability the rest of the lot did. Anyway, the article has full details for some vans and the twin vent ends started to be retrofitted from around 1923 but the program accelerated in the 1930's. If you do not have the GWRJ series you should get it, but there again if you are interested in the GWR or WR and do not get GWRJ you should! Regards, Craig W

The wagon bible does have a photo of a V12 - on page 1 there is a photo of Middle Yard (Acton) around 1920. The second van in the photo (82817 according to the caption) appears to be a V12 with sliding vents. On the subject of the offset V- hangers, in his article on GWR vans in MRJ 112 and 113 (a V12 and V14 in late condition) John Hayes speculates that the offset V -Hangers may have been required to clear the vacuum cylinder and the side on views in the article certainly raise that as a possibility. So perhaps a better question to ask is has anyone seen a vacuum fitted V12/14/16 or 015 that does not have offset V hangers? Regards, Craig W Also a V12 in the background on page 273. This van is 82081 - is vacuum fitted but I am not sure the V-hangers are offset!

I received four of these in the mail this afternoon (Posted on the 16th of Aug and arrived in Australia on the 21st...not bad!) and started looking through the usual references. The V12 vans are noted as being built with the sliding ventilators rather than the bonnets fitted to the V14 and V16. However, some were later fitted with the bonnets - at last according to photographs. But does anyone know when this was done from? The best date I could find is in the GWR wagon book (the big one!) where it says from the mid 1920's for the V6 vans. My modelling period is mid 1924, so I am guessing that for that time all the V12 had the earlier arrangement. Does anybody have any further thoughts? Really nice kit by the way, looking forward to starting it after I finish a N4 and N13 Horse box Regards, Craig W

Annoying? Only a personal one this one. Everytime I think I will do a "quick" conversion to P4 - be it a Parkside kit or a Hornby Grange it never turns out to be simple or quick! I notice all the things that would bug me if I did not fix them and off it goes again. Hornby Grange? .... Springs and axleboxes replaced with full depth castings, safety valve cover and chimney replaced with Mitchell castings and buffer plank being rebuilt to the correct depth. Then I still have to look at the cross heads and rods that stick out like a sore thumb to me. Ah well, we all choose our paths and I have realised now that attempting to take a short cut does not work for me! Craig W

G'day Ian. Show some photos on how you fit the bolts if you decide to go that way because i think you will have to modify the body to retain them. What motor and mount are you looking at using? Had a look around and I think the only one who does plates for Kingfisher is 247 Developments. regards, Craig

Nick, The tender may be a problem if you wish to backdate to Edwardian times. According to the Martin Finney instructions, the tender with the Hornby model is representative of one from Lot A97 onward as it has snap head rivets. This dates it to at least Dec 1917, whilst the separate dome and filler was also a later introduction. The tender is also fitted with the transverse vacuum tank introduced from the mid 1920s while the larger tender springs seem to have been implemented in the mid 1920s as well. In summary, there may be a fair bit of work to do on it. Martin Finney can supply the earlier tender axleboxes and springs, so it may be possible to rectify that issue. With regards to late surviving tall bonnets on early 28XX, the wonderful "Great Western Steam 1934-1949" has a photo at the start of the book of 2808 still so fitted in March 1948 - albeit with outside steam pipes. There is another one, still with inside steam pipes on page 120 but the number was not recorded (photo is May 1947). 2811 is shown on page 119, also in 1947. Regards, Craig Warton